Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[southsider]

So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'd love to be wrong but they're not close.

So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

[MB62]

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They are indeed a NEW team,dont let the cavemen from the west tell you any differently, i think it's their low intelligence level which makes them believe they are the same team.

its like your beloved pet labrador, sadly died so you get a new one, you may call it the same name however, it is infact NEW, it isn't the same dog

dirty smelly huns

So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

[CraigHibee]

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So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

they won't admit to it bud even though everyone elses knows the script, imagine a full 2 page spread of apology from sevco in the paper, now that would be hillarious

[CropleyWasGod]

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So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

1. OldCo aren't "no more". They are still in liquidation. The judgement means that HMRC will get more of the pot than they would have if the case had gone the other way. Conversely, the smaller creditors will get less.

2. the fraud case is a possibility.

[chinaman]

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as it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, rangers didn't earn them.

this,this, this..won't ever happen sadly ,cos all the cowards running the show.

[Ozyhibby]

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So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December.


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You may be right. I'm not sure whether they have assumed all of that in their sums. Let's hope not.

[Mikey09]

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It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December.


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Come on Ozzy... All that's not a problem with Dave King's millions at the ready! He's rolling in it... I mean he would never lie about anything, would he?!

[Hibs90]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

[CropleyWasGod]

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so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

.... that's a 10-pager which has been done to death a few times on here.

[kaimendhibs]

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As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

Couldn't agree more!

[AndyM_1875]

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so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

[steakbake]

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It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

I bet when the deal was stitched up, they weren't expecting the Rangers to lose the big tax case...

[Moulin Yarns]

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As expected....

‏@alextomo 23m23 minutes ago
So Rangers are found to have won a series of titles whilst comprehensively cheating the tax man.

He doesn't hang about. Good man

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/

[CropleyWasGod]

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It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...mith-ebt-fine/

[ACLeith]

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 😀

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

[KeithTheHibby]

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As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

[CropleyWasGod]

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So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

[AndyM_1875]

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That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...mith-ebt-fine/

I stand corrected, but looks likely a substantial fine will be delivered.

[KeithTheHibby]

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

They were able to pay players whilst in administration, out of the funds they had available.

[AndyM_1875]

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One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

Just to note that David Murray used EBTs in other bits of his Murray Group companies, most of whom he liquidated earlier on this year leaving only a trail of bank debt.

[Seveno]

Is it time to create three different threads to help us keep up with all the Rangers/ Sevco stories:

1. Rangers liquidation & Big tax case.
2. Sevco v Mash
3. Imminent Administration of Sevco

We might need a fourth for all the other madcap stories from the Big Hoose.

[Moulin Yarns]

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As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

[PatHead]

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So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in easily via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from sold strips than they estimated.

[ACLeith]

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One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

Does that not presume what the advice was though? Maybe they were told it was wrong and chose to ignore it? Just guessing mind

[CropleyWasGod]

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So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

That's over and above receipts.

"The forecast identifies that the group will require up to £2.5m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season
2015/2016 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due".

Also:-

"The forecast indicates that an initial tranche of funds will be required in December 2015."

[Moulin Yarns]

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I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from soiled strips than they estimated.

Sorted that for you

[PatHead]

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By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

Personally I think trophies should be withheld. It would be unfair on clubs who were beaten in earlier rounds otherwise.