Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[johnrebus]

It is now becoming pretty obvious that Rangers fate is now being decided from the highest level possible. I don't believe there will be any liquidation.

Why have HMRC been so quiet over the last near four weeks, while the administrators have (seemingly) stumbled around like a blind man in the dark?

You would have expected some kind of, ' will you just get a move on please, do your job and give us the money. Normal rules obvious don't apply here.

Here is my take on the end game.

1. Rangers FC will take their place in the SPL, perhaps with a ten point penalty for the next two seasons.
2. The Ticketus deal will be declared void.
3. Craig Whyte will be left with nothing. Rangers will still own Ibrox and MP.
4. The big tax case will be withdrawn on a hitherto unseen technicality.
5. The CVA will be agreed in the next few days - early enough for the accounts to be completed and the Huns to play in Europe.
6. Sir David Murray and the double contract fiasco will be found unproven.
7. Rangers will finish second in next seasons SPL - twenty five points ahead of the third placed club.
8. SPL crowds will be down by a further 20% due to the disappearance of sickened fans.

[CropleyWasGod]

In a slight deviation (way hey), does anyone know anything about the gentleman named as Arsenal's retail director in this piece?

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-arc...line-boot-room

He was at RFC in a similar role for a few years in the SDM years.

[Seveno]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That may be the stance they are taking. But, the facts are that RFC have had the money. They are therefore due to pay it back to someone, whether that is Ticketus or CW.

If it's CW, then his security comes back into play. But the smarter journalists are saying that the admins have decided his security is worthless in that he isn't owed a bolt.

An old boss of mine used to talk about "playing French cricket"... in other words, batting away problems in any way you could. I think there's perhaps a lot of this going on just now.

Isn't French Cricket where someone stands on a box with a bat and everyone else is in a circle around the box. it means that fast balls are coming at the batsman from every angle. ( we used to play it in the Scouts )

Seems like an excellent analogy. ( the game, not the Scouts ).

[Thecat23]

If I'm being honest, i find this whole thing a joke. If this was any other club players would not get the chance to sit down and talk over pay cuts etc.. They would be punted. Look at Motherwell, Dundee and Livvi. Seems the Administrators have bent over backwards for Rangers and i also think they are delaying lot's of issues until a proper buyer is found. I'm sick to death of the old firm and if they come out this and nothing is done about it then Scottish football can GTF.

A real chance to chance the face of Scottish football but as usual I think all the clubs will bottle it. I just wish Rangers would close down now. Then they can apply for the 3rd Division. Anything else is just a shambles.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Isn't French Cricket where someone stands on a box with a bat and everyone else is in a circle around the box. it means that fast balls are coming at the batsman from every angle. ( we used to play it in the Scouts )

Seems like an excellent analogy. ( the game, not the Scouts ).

Yup, that's the one.

I think the modern term is fire-fighting.

But fire-fighting doesn't run the risk of getting a vindictive chuck in the chuckies.

[IWasThere2016]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It is now becoming pretty obvious that Rangers fate is now being decided from the highest level possible. I don't believe there will be any liquidation.

Why have HMRC been so quiet over the last near four weeks, while the administrators have (seemingly) stumbled around like a blind man in the dark?

You would have expected some kind of, ' will you just get a move on please, do your job and give us the money. Normal rules obvious don't apply here.

Here is my take on the end game.

1. Rangers FC will take their place in the SPL, perhaps with a ten point penalty for the next two seasons.
2. The Ticketus deal will be declared void.
3. Craig Whyte will be left with nothing. Rangers will still own Ibrox and MP.
4. The big tax case will be withdrawn on a hitherto unseen technicality.
5. The CVA will be agreed in the next few days - early enough for the accounts to be completed and the Huns to play in Europe.
6. Sir David Murray and the double contract fiasco will be found unproven.
7. Rangers will finish second in next seasons SPL - twenty five points ahead of the third placed club.
8. SPL crowds will be down by a further 20% due to the disappearance of sickened fans.

Only the 10 SPL chairmen growing a collective pair and bringing about change can save us from the horror above. COME ON ROD ET AL!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why have HMRC been so quiet over the last near four weeks, while the administrators have (seemingly) stumbled around like a blind man in the dark?

You would have expected some kind of, ' will you just get a move on please, do your job and give us the money. Normal rules obvious don't apply here.

There is no need for HMRC to say or do anything. Indeed, they can't actually "do" anything; that's one of the protections that administration provides.

They are sitting on a £15m debt. As each day passes, they are closer to a potential further £49m. Why should they do anything?

That said, some reports have them in talks with D&P. Personally, I hope those reports aren't true.

[johnrebus]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Only the 10 SPL chairmen growing a collective pair and bringing about change can save us from the horror above. COME ON ROD ET AL!!!

TQM, I'm pretty sure that it won't make a blind bit of difference what the SPL chairman do.

We're stuck with the *******s.



But believe me, I want to be wrong.

[Seveno]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Only the 10 SPL chairmen growing a collective pair and bringing about change can save us from the horror above. COME ON ROD ET AL!!!

I have a feeling that this could be Rod's finest hour. There is a growing rage bubbling beneath that Tache.

[hibeesjoe]

If rangers come out of this whole thing with very little damage then i reckon a lot of people might just give up on scottish football. They should be made an examlple of or it will give the green light to every other club to rip off the taxman and spend well outwith there limits.

[johnrebus]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There is no need for HMRC to say or do anything. Indeed, they can't actually "do" anything; that's one of the protections that administation provides.

They are sitting on a £15m debt. As each day passes, they are closer to a potential further £49m. Why should they do anything?

That said, some reports have them in talks with D&P. Personally, I hope those reports aren't true.

This is what worries me.

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but.............,

[Steve20]

Rangers are still heading for liquidation because no one will buy a club with the level of debt they have and although The Sun is claiming HMRC might do a deal over the "big tax case", there is nothing to confirm this.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have a feeling that this could be Rod's finest hour. There is a growing rage bubbling beneath that Tache.

I have a vision of a statue of Rod, not just outside ER, not just outside every football ground in the country, but also right in front of the massive new Tesco on Edmiston Drive.

[Seveno]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have a vision of a statue of Rod, not just outside ER, not just outside every football ground in the country, but also right in front of the massive new Tesco on Edmiston Drive.

And a special day in March will henceforth be named 'Tache Day'. Football fans around the country will congregate around their local statue and bow, just like that, proclaiming 'Hail the Tache'.

I'm close to tears at the mere thought.

[Jim44]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

TQM, I'm pretty sure that it won't make a blind bit of difference what the SPL chairman do.

We're stuck with the *******s.



But believe me, I want to be wrong.

I wish you were wrong as well but is clear that they will pay back a relative pittance of the many millions they stole from the taxman. With the possibility of liquidation now out of the equation, their position in the duopoly in the SPL will be consolidated in the near future ( in fact the meeting of the SPL clubs is hardly worth taking place ). Is the party over?

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Whittaker, Naismith and McGregor have all agreed to take a 75% wage cut...

Must surely be off their rockers?

[Twa Cairpets]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I wish you were wrong as well but is clear that they will pay back a relative pittance of the many millions they stole from the taxman. With the possibility of liquidation now out of the equation, their position in the duopoly in the SPL will be consolidated in the near future ( in fact the meeting of the SPL clubs is hardly worth taking place ). Is the party over?

Well that's a jolly post.

It is NOT clear that they will pay back a pittance.
Liquidation is NOT out of the equation unless I've missed something.
The SPL10 meeting is worth taking place.

No need to quite put yourself on suicide watch yet...

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I wish you were wrong as well but is clear that they will pay back a relative pittance of the many millions they stole from the taxman. With the possibility of liquidation now out of the equation, their position in the duopoly in the SPL will be consolidated in the near future ( in fact the meeting of the SPL clubs is hardly worth taking place ). Is the party over?

Missed that one.... where did you get it from?

[Twa Cairpets]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Whittaker, Naismith and McGregor have all agreed to take a 75% wage cut...

Must surely be off their rockers?

Yes, how they'll struggle by on a mere £5K+ a week is almost enough to make me weep for their sacrifice. Dont people know their kids need new shoes? We should really have a whip round for them.

[GreenPJ]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Rangers are still heading for liquidation because no one will buy a club with the level of debt they have and although The Sun is claiming HMRC might do a deal over the "big tax case", there is nothing to confirm this.

I thought that the big tax case was effectively a test case that the HMRC want to win as there is then significant revenue they can go after with English clubs. On that basis I would not have thought they would be in any position to be negotiating a deal on the big taxcase until they have either won or lost?

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes, how they'll struggle by on a mere £5K+ a week is almost enough to make me weep for their sacrifice. Dont people know their kids need new shoes? We should really have a whip round for them.

And only for about 3 months until they either get a new club or normal business is resumed.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I thought that the big tax case was effectively a test case that the HMRC want to win as there is then significant revenue they can go after with English clubs. On that basis I would not have thought they would be in any position to be negotiating a deal on the big taxcase until they have either won or lost?

Correct. It was The Sun wot said it. Ignore it.

Taking the "test case" scenario a bit further, I did read that the RFC judgement, when it comes, is not necessarily to be relied on for future cases involving football clubs. That is because it is a "First Tier" Tribunal, and apparently that doesn't have any clout in setting precedents. However, if it goes further up the chain, perhaps through appeal, those Courts higher up will be setting precedent.

That said, the verdict in RFC's case will certainly help to shape HMRC's approach in those other cases.

[jgl07]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This whole saga is so fascinating, and there are so many variables, that one can never say never.

However, it is HMRC's policy (to date) not to agree to CVA's, which is what this "dividend" is about. If they do agree to it, it will represent an enormous shift in their stance, and will have major repercussions, not just for football clubs but all businesses. Basically, it will enable struggling businesses to say "let's go into administration, agree a deal with the taxman, and start again".

I just can't see HMRC doing that for what is a "mere" £15m.

But they will presumably get a second bite for the £50-55 million if the tax disputes go in favour of HMRC.

[PaulSmith]

So taking all this into account Whyte started with a debt at Rangers of £75m give it take.
He creates a Phoenix company (wavetower) to get £24m from Ticketus on basis of future sales to wipe out bank debt.
Rangers Fc no longer owe lloyds, the ticketus deal is with Wavetower and now not valid.
£64m worth of tax due becomes £6.4m.
Rangers sell 40k STs in May, have insignificant debt, start next season in spl with no penalties and become the richest club in Scotland overnight.

Sporting integrity, aye right. I'm out of this nonsense if this comes to pass.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But they will presumably get a second bite for the £50-55 million if the tax disputes go in favour of HMRC.

See, that's my big worry.

If HMRC agree to a CVA on the £15m, it means that a buyer can take the club over, through his/her company, with a much-reduced debt. That leaves the BTC in RFC(the old company). Even if that went against RFC, there would be nothing in that company to pay it with.

No liking this idea one bit.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So taking all this into account Whyte started with a debt at Rangers of £75m give it take.
He creates a Phoenix company (wavetower) to get £24m from Ticketus on basis of future sales to wipe out bank debt.
Rangers Fc no longer owe lloyds, the ticketus deal is with Wavetower and now not valid.
£64m worth of tax due becomes £6.4m.
Rangers sell 40k STs in May, have insignificant debt, start next season in spl with no penalties and become the richest club in Scotland overnight.

Sporting integrity, aye right. I'm out of this nonsense if this comes to pass.

It's not just about sporting integrity for me, Paul. It's about moral integrity, but more than that it's sending out a message to UKplc that they can do what they want with their tax debts.

[jonty]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If the company goes into liquidation, they will probably get a lot more than 10p.

On the other side of things, liquidaton might mean the closing off of future tax revenues from RFC. Agreeing to a CVA now would keep that stream open.

Surely if they get liquidised (http://joecartoon.org/?p=37) then newco will have to pay tax? Either way, whatever company comes out of it will still be raking in enough money for the tax man to be happy.

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

6. Sir David Murray and the double contract fiasco will be found unproven.

.....and within two years he'll Lord Murray, for services to football.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Surely if they get liquidised (http://joecartoon.org/?p=37) then newco will have to pay tax? Either way, whatever company comes out of it will still be raking in enough money for the tax man to be happy.

That is correct if there is a newco after liquidation. It is likely that there would be, but it's not certain.

[Jim44]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Well that's a jolly post.

It is NOT clear that they will pay back a pittance.
Liquidation is NOT out of the equation unless I've missed something.
The SPL10 meeting is worth taking place.

No need to quite put yourself on suicide watch yet...

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Missed that one.... where did you get it from?

Sorry guys, cynicism got the better of me. I must repeat to myself "Rangers are stuffed, Rangers are stuffed, Rangers are stuffed ......... There, I've almost convinced myself.. I promise I won't do anything silly while we wait for the axe to fall.