Well Done Rod and the Board (merged)

[Peevemor]

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Everything is in wages and as I said with all we let go then I see a balance, there may be loan fees that eat into budget but as I said I do not think the full amount of what we can spend in budget has been taken over the max. So that is why I do not really understand why board are getting so much credit.

I certainly would not be thanking the board that due to there previous mistakes PF is having to bring in loans at the 11th hour to try an save our season rather than bringing in the odd player for a final push of respectability. Wasted season with wasted loan fees and wages that was totally avoidable.

Don't kid yourself - the board have dug deep and without a sudden upsurge in attendances and/or maybe a good run in the cup, STF will be sticking in another million or two this season.

The club have brought in 8 new players and released 5 (I think) from the first team squad. Even if, for the sake of argument, we say that the 8 players earn the same as the 5 that were released, the club still had to buy out the contracts of those that were emptied. In addition, Hibs reportedly made bids to buy other players but to no avail.

The board allowed the manager to bring in a lot of new faces as either replacements or competition for almost every position. They could have easily told Fenlon - "OK - 5 out, 5 in", or even that it was up to him to move players on (ie. not buying out their contracts) before he could bring anyone in. They didn't.

The board are backing Fenlon to the hilt and for that they deserve credit.

[Captain Trips]

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Don't kid yourself - the board have dug deep and without a sudden upsurge in attendances and/or maybe a good run in the cup, STF will be sticking in another million or two this season.

The club have brought in 8 new players and released 5 (I think) from the first team squad. Even if, for the sake of argument, we say that the 8 players earn the same as the 5 that were released, the club still had to buy out the contracts of those that were emptied. In addition, Hibs reportedly made bids to buy other players but to no avail.

The board allowed the manager to bring in a lot of new faces as either replacements or competition for almost every position. They could have easily told Fenlon - "OK - 5 out, 5 in", or even that it was up to him to move players on (ie. not buying out their contracts) before he could bring anyone in. They didn't.

The board are backing Fenlon to the hilt and for that they deserve credit.

This is all assumption about digging deep as is what I have said also, and as I said what of players he wanted but didnt get? they are supposed to back him just like players are supposed to try so sorry any credit for any good players in this window is down to PF and his contacts. So kind for the board to allow the manager to bring in new faces just like every other clubs board seemed to do allow manager to bring in players. Hibs have a budget manager used it no biggy really. If we had got the folk we didnt manage to get then yeah we are definatly going outwith comfort zone we didnt though we got in some players to see us until June, no reason at all with any of the business done to be thanking anyone.

Backed to hilt would mean Goodwin was a player for us, he isnt.

[Jay]

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I am amazed at the number of people apparently content that the bulk of our first-team squad is now made up of end-of-season loanees and players on short-term contracts extending no farther than the end of next season (May 2013) - with our manager on a contract that expires at the end of the following season (May 2014).

If I drove my car in accordance with those principles of foresight and forward planning, I'd be dead long ago.

I'd be surprised if anybody is content with it Doddie but accept its probably been more of a case of needs must. First priority had to be bringing in players to give us a chance of avoiding relegation. Jan transfer window is notoriously bad for getting in players so it could be that we actually did well in getting what we did - only time will tell. I presume during the discussions of loans, future permanant transfers would have been discussed. Maybe they were scared of buying a pig in a poke again.

I think most of us know this is a very short respite and a new squad has to be built again in the summer. Never a dull moment eh?

[--------]

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Loved your earlier post Doddie, very true and very eloquently put. With regard to this one, PF has to start somewhere, hopefully he has made enough short term measures to keep us up & the real work will commence in the summer, from then we can judge both the true extent of his talent & the level of backing he gets.

I'm not actually complaining that we've got these guys in - we need them, desperately, NOW, and we need them to start playing as a team ASAP. And I DO think Paddy F knows what he's about.

But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm. Right now, we're 'stable' for the next 2 years, 5 months - which actually means ONE year, 5 months, since if Paddy does a decent job next season the word will be out that he's going somewhere else - and we all know how well our high-heid yins fought off bids for the few managers we've had actually capable of doing the job. This isn't a definition of 'stability' I find in my dictionary.

Quite how anyone can consider that we've 'turned the corner' escapes me. We may be a bit farther up a very long straight, but whether we're about to safely negotiate a corner or immolate ourselves in a pile-up against a dead-end blank wall remains to be seen.

And the only people who can influence THAT scenario are Farmer and Petrie - a thought which somehow fails to fill me with very much confidence, frankly.

[--------]

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I'd be surprised if anybody is content with it Doddie but accept its probably been more of a case of needs must. First priority had to be bringing in players to give us a chance of avoiding relegation. Jan transfer window is notoriously bad for getting in players so it could be that we actually did well in getting what we did - only time will tell. I presume during the discussions of loans, future permanant transfers would have been discussed. Maybe they were scared of buying a pig in a poke again.

I think most of us know this is a very short respite and a new squad has to be built again in the summer. Never a dull moment eh?

Jill, I'd LOVE to believe that some of these guys are already thinking of signing extended contracts. Truly, I'd LOVE to. But call me cynical, call me distrustful - I DON'T. I doubt Farmer and Petrie are thinking one minute beyond the end of the season.

As for 'pigs in pokes', I'd say that the board's shenanigans of the past few years are more likely to have put players off signing extended contracts with Hibs than the other way round.

Pardon my indelicacy to a lady, but see Doddie's Rule 13 for Hibs Supporters - Always keep your back to the wall, because sooner or later the Board will try to screw you.

50 years experience, Jill.

[Ray_]

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I'm not actually complaining that we've got these guys in - we need them, desperately, NOW, and we need them to start playing as a team ASAP. And I DO think Paddy F knows what he's about.

But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm. Right now, we're 'stable' for the next 2 years, 5 months - which actually means ONE year, 5 months, since if Paddy does a decent job next season the word will be out that he's going somewhere else - and we all know how well our high-heid yins fought off bids for the few managers we've had actually capable of doing the job. This isn't a definition of 'stability' I find in my dictionary.

Quite how anyone can consider that we've 'turned the corner' escapes me. We may be a bit farther up a very long straight, but whether we're about to safely negotiate a corner or immolate ourselves in a pile-up against a dead-end blank wall remains to be seen.

And the only people who can influence THAT scenario are Farmer and Petrie - a thought which somehow fails to fill me with very much confidence, frankly.

We are in a bit of a catch 22 there though, if PF turned out to anywhere near as bad as the last three choices we would have faced massive compensation to remove him from the post. I like PF & get the same sort of feel about him as I did when I first heard TM, if things are going well & he is building well for that future we all want, we need to ensure, as a club, that we do our best to make him part of that future.

Going back to the old argument, I still have & always will believe that the managers job is the most important at a football club, hopefully its a lesson Petrie & Co has learnt and will act accordingly, but given their track record, I'd certainly not put my house on it.

[Jay]

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I'm not actually complaining that we've got these guys in - we need them, desperately, NOW, and we need them to start playing as a team ASAP. And I DO think Paddy F knows what he's about.

But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm. Right now, we're 'stable' for the next 2 years, 5 months - which actually means ONE year, 5 months, since if Paddy does a decent job next season the word will be out that he's going somewhere else - and we all know how well our high-heid yins fought off bids for the few managers we've had actually capable of doing the job. This isn't a definition of 'stability' I find in my dictionary.

Quite how anyone can consider that we've 'turned the corner' escapes me. We may be a bit farther up a very long straight, but whether we're about to safely negotiate a corner or immolate ourselves in a pile-up against a dead-end blank wall remains to be seen.

And the only people who can influence THAT scenario are Farmer and Petrie - a thought which somehow fails to fill me with very much confidence, frankly.

It would be interesting to see the stats on other clubs though Doddie - I havent looked into it but from what I hear short term contracts seems to be the norm across the board these days.

I dont really know what people want from Petrie and Farmer to be honest. A new manager was appointed, one I am sure they thought was best the best man for the job, and they have financially backed him in a transfer windows only a few short weeks after he arrived. How many players did other bottom six teams bring in?

[marinello59]

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But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm.

Pat Fenlon signalled before the transfer window that he would be mainly taking in players on short term deals or loans as it is so difficult to do business in the January window. That sugggests to me that the Summer window will see players coming in on a more permanent basis. In saying that though do you really believe we are going to go back to the days of decent experienced players signing deals for three or four years with Hibs? We are a stepping stone to the Old Firm and the Old Firm are a stepping stone to the English leagues, that's the reality.

[Jay]

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Jill, I'd LOVE to believe that some of these guys are already thinking of signing extended contracts. Truly, I'd LOVE to. But call me cynical, call me distrustful - I DON'T. I doubt Farmer and Petrie are thinking one minute beyond the end of the season.

As for 'pigs in pokes', I'd say that the board's shenanigans of the past few years are more likely to have put players off signing extended contracts with Hibs than the other way round.

Pardon my indelicacy to a lady, but see Doddie's Rule 13 for Hibs Supporters - Always keep your back to the wall, because sooner or later the Board will try to screw you.

50 years experience, Jill.

I dont think they will be either but dont believe Petrie and Farmer didnt discuss it or have an option for us. Someone on this thread called them losers, one thing they are not and that is losers in their business and financial lilfe, they are shrewd businessmen.

I would like to quote a respected member of this board in my next part just as a wee refresher

I will try to be much less crabbit in the year ahead. Promise!

[Captain Trips]

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I'm not actually complaining that we've got these guys in - we need them, desperately, NOW, and we need them to start playing as a team ASAP. And I DO think Paddy F knows what he's about.

But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm. Right now, we're 'stable' for the next 2 years, 5 months - which actually means ONE year, 5 months, since if Paddy does a decent job next season the word will be out that he's going somewhere else - and we all know how well our high-heid yins fought off bids for the few managers we've had actually capable of doing the job. This isn't a definition of 'stability' I find in my dictionary.

Quite how anyone can consider that we've 'turned the corner' escapes me. We may be a bit farther up a very long straight, but whether we're about to safely negotiate a corner or immolate ourselves in a pile-up against a dead-end blank wall remains to be seen.

And the only people who can influence THAT scenario are Farmer and Petrie - a thought which somehow fails to fill me with very much confidence, frankly.

Agree

[Captain Trips]

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Pat Fenlon signalled before the transfer window that he would be mainly taking in players on short term deals or loans as it is so difficult to do business in the January window. That sugggests to me that the Summer window will see players coming in on a more permanent basis. In saying that though do you really believe we are going to go back to the days of decent experienced players signing deals for three or four years with Hibs? We are a stepping stone to the Old Firm and the Old Firm are a stepping stone to the English leagues, that's the reality.

Indeed it is the reality but it has always been that reality and we have always up until last few years bought players that have signed for 2+ years, if we do not sign up folk more permanently then I think we are going to stay in this position.

[Peevemor]

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This is all assumption about digging deep as is what I have said also, and as I said what of players he wanted but didnt get? they are supposed to back him just like players are supposed to try so sorry any credit for any good players in this window is down to PF and his contacts.

So the board get pelters for appointing (and backing) our recent dodgy managers, but don't deserve any for appointing PF or for the signings he makes? You can't have it all ways.

So kind for the board to allow the manager to bring in new faces just like every other clubs board seemed to do allow manager to bring in players.

Except Rangers and Hearts.

Hibs have a budget manager used it no biggy really.

As I said, I'm fairly certain that Hibs will have overspent this season.

If we had got the folk we didnt manage to get then yeah we are definatly going outwith comfort zone we didnt though we got in some players to see us until June, no reason at all with any of the business done to be thanking anyone.

Backed to hilt would mean Goodwin was a player for us, he isnt.

Unless St Mirren wanted more than PF thought he was worth. We don't know.

[marinello59]

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Indeed it is the reality but it has always been that reality and we have always up until last few years bought players that have signed for 2+ years, if we do not sign up folk more permanently then I think we are going to stay in this position.

[Captain Trips]

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So the board get pelters for appointing (and backing) our recent dodgy managers, but don't deserve any for appointing PF or for the signings he makes? You can't have it all ways.



Except Rangers and Hearts.



As I said, I'm fairly certain that Hibs will have overspent this season.



Unless St Mirren wanted more than PF thought he was worth. We don't know.

I will certainly give them credit for PF though I think to say he is going to do well and thank them now is to early, they backed all their last managers and this one as that is what they are supposed to do.

[Peevemor]

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I will certainly give them credit for PF though I think to say he is going to do well and thank them now is to early, they backed all their last managers and this one as that is what they are supposed to do.

So what are you moaning about then?

[Beefster]

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but don't deserve any for appointing PF

What's Fenlon done to justify crediting the Board for his appointment so soon?

[Captain Trips]

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So what are you moaning about then?

I am saying they do not deserve any credit for it as they seem to be getting hailed that something special is getting done, all that has been done is we have brought in some players and let some go so they havent done anything worthy of credit. If maybe we got Goodwin or paid a fee or two this window then ok fair enough the board have taken a risk with manager and money, they havent we have signed some loans.

If these players work out the credit for me is for PF.

[Peevemor]

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What's Fenlon done to justify crediting the Board for his appointment so soon?

Good selective quoting there.

Where did I say he's done anything?

[Peevemor]

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I am saying they do not deserve any credit for it as they seem to be getting hailed that something special is getting done, all that has been done is we have brought in some players and let some go so they havent done anything worthy of credit. If maybe we got Goodwin or paid a fee or two this window then ok fair enough the board have taken a risk with manager and money, they havent we have signed some loans.

If these players work out the credit for me is for PF.

So if these players work out it's down to PF, but if they don't then it's the board's fault?

Seems fair to me.

[Beefster]

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Good selective quoting there.

Where did I say he's done anything?

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So the board get pelters for appointing (and backing) our recent dodgy managers, but don't deserve any for appointing PF or for the signings he makes? You can't have it all ways.

I didn't think that taking the bit in question changed its meaning but maybe I'm wrong.

You seemed to suggest that they deserve credit for appointing Fenlon (in addition to other stuff). I was just wondering why.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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So if these players work out it's down to PF, but if they don't then it's the board's fault?

Seems fair to me.

Seems to be most people's argument so must be true.

[Captain Trips]

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So if these players work out it's down to PF, but if they don't then it's the board's fault?

Seems fair to me.

Where did I say that? If these players fail firstly it is managers fault, if it was to continue on then it would appear that they had wrong manager then they would take responsability along with manager, if it goes well then the board and manager get credit and praise.

Week in week out if team does well I believe at every club the players and manager get the credit and the board are just seen as doing job, if the success is pro longed then along with the team and manager the board wil be praised. Unfortunatly the environment they are in the credit takes a lot longer to build up than the more negative views.

To give the board credit for letting manager bring in mostly loans to me is ridiculous. There job is to make sure PF is right man and he gets in the players he wants, once that is apparent then it is time for them to get credit and that will take time we will not know for a while if PF is right man.

[HibsMax]

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I havent said not more optomistic I just do not feel the board have done anything other than let PF use up some of his budget which is what they are supposed to do,, for me this window is all about PF.

Agreed..........assuming the players we got are his targets. ;)

You said that you feel the board have done nothing, then go on to say something that the board has done. That IS something. I am sure, if they wanted to, they could have prevented any of these signings from going through.

The irony here is that some people think the board are stingy and don't back the managers where in reality they HAVE backed the manager. Here they are backing the manager again. But why get a little excited about that?

[HibsMax]

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Everything is in wages and as I said with all we let go then I see a balance, there may be loan fees that eat into budget but as I said I do not think the full amount of what we can spend in budget has been taken over the max. So that is why I do not really understand why board are getting so much credit.

With all due respect, unless you have some insider information (?) you have no idea what you're talking about. If you do, please tell me what the budget was and how much of that Pat used.

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I certainly would not be thaning the board that due to there previous mistakes PF is having to bring in loans at the 11th hour to try an save our season rather than bringing in the odd player for a final push of respectability. Wasted season with wasted loan fees and wages that was totally avoidable.

So let me get this straight, you wouldn't thank the board for trying to make good on previous mistakes? Tough crowd. I think almost everyone realises the state that Hibs are in and if we have to pinpoint ONE problem then it's been with the managers' ability to assemble a team that performs to our expectations. Since the manager is selected by the board the buck stops with them. So we give the board stick for appointing the wrong man / men. People seem to like PF and think he's doing a good job so far. He's had one window and brought in a bunch of players with the board's backing. But still you won't thank them. I am not suggesting anyone sends them a box of chocolates and a bouquet but the work done this window deserves some acknowledgement. Personally speaking, I would rather celebrate a new beginning than continue to bleat on about how we shouldn't be in this position in the first place.

[Captain Trips]

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Agreed..........assuming the players we got are his targets. ;)

You said that you feel the board have done nothing, then go on to say something that the board has done. That IS something. I am sure, if they wanted to, they could have prevented any of these signings from going through.

The irony here is that some people think the board are stingy and don't back the managers where in reality they HAVE backed the manager. Here they are backing the manager again. But why get a little excited about that?

What the board have done is let the manager use his budget as they are supposed to, I do not really call that doing anything other than their job to get given credit.

[HibsMax]

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I am amazed at the number of people apparently content that the bulk of our first-team squad is now made up of end-of-season loanees and players on short-term contracts extending no farther than the end of next season (May 2013) - with our manager on a contract that expires at the end of the following season (May 2014).

If I drove my car in accordance with those principles of foresight and forward planning, I'd be dead long ago.

Baby steps. Unless you have a few million lying around to invest in the team?

[HibsMax]

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Yeah, talk of PF needing 2yrs has been common I would agree a manager needs time but we really need to start seeing some signings made that will be giving more than 18mths which could be as little as 12mths with pre contracts.

If it is 18mths and 12mths we continue with we will once again be looking for another manager sooner rather than later I said this with CC I do not want this to be same with PF, no matter how hard it is we need to bring in players of quality for longer, when they are doing that maybe then it is time for credit.

I will give PF the time that he gives the players on contracts at the moment in terms of non loans thats averaging 18mths, game needs stepped up in summer.

What if players won't commit to Hibs on longer, permanent deals? I am sure if we could get players signed up on deals like this we would but given out current position I think we have to accept what we can get.

I said this during previous windows - what Hibs want and what Hibs can get are two totally different things.

[Captain Trips]

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What if players won't commit to Hibs on longer, permanent deals? I am sure if we could get players signed up on deals like this we would but given out current position I think we have to accept what we can get.

I said this during previous windows - what Hibs want and what Hibs can get are two totally different things.

I accept that and have said so, I was meaning that for summer, unfortunatly as you agree our position dictates what sort of deals we can get as much as I dislike it I fully understand it.

[HibsMax]

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This is all assumption about digging deep as is what I have said also, and as I said what of players he wanted but didnt get? they are supposed to back him just like players are supposed to try so sorry any credit for any good players in this window is down to PF and his contacts. So kind for the board to allow the manager to bring in new faces just like every other clubs board seemed to do allow manager to bring in players. Hibs have a budget manager used it no biggy really. If we had got the folk we didnt manage to get then yeah we are definatly going outwith comfort zone we didnt though we got in some players to see us until June, no reason at all with any of the business done to be thanking anyone.

Backed to hilt would mean Goodwin was a player for us, he isnt.

PF does deserve credit too. This is not about who deserves it and who doesn't, or who deserves most.....can't we be happy with all of them?

I don't think every football club's board backs the manager to the hilt as you imply.

Do we know why Goodwin didn't sign? Was there a quote somewhere? Were we outbid by St. Mirren or is this just more negative speculation?

[HibsMax]

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I'm not actually complaining that we've got these guys in - we need them, desperately, NOW, and we need them to start playing as a team ASAP. And I DO think Paddy F knows what he's about.

But Farmer and Petrie and the Board they appointed have got Hibs in the position where short-term solutions have become the norm. Right now, we're 'stable' for the next 2 years, 5 months - which actually means ONE year, 5 months, since if Paddy does a decent job next season the word will be out that he's going somewhere else - and we all know how well our high-heid yins fought off bids for the few managers we've had actually capable of doing the job. This isn't a definition of 'stability' I find in my dictionary.

Quite how anyone can consider that we've 'turned the corner' escapes me. We may be a bit farther up a very long straight, but whether we're about to safely negotiate a corner or immolate ourselves in a pile-up against a dead-end blank wall remains to be seen.

And the only people who can influence THAT scenario are Farmer and Petrie - a thought which somehow fails to fill me with very much confidence, frankly.

"farther up a long straight", "turned a corner". Let's not mix idioms here, they basically amount to the same thing.

I personally don't know if we've turned a corner and I haven't read any posts by anyone who thinks that either. That would be a foolish statement to make having not seen the new-look Hibs team kick a single ball. People just feel good about the transfer window IMO. And they're getting for feeling that way.