Get rid o east mains

[cocopops1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

Perhaps we would, however i know for a fact we have a training centre and the best stadium outside the old firm

[Twa Cairpets]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

Maybe. If I had a time machine and could see that not building EM would deliver the Scottish then I'd be up for some serious Back to the Future action.

As for timescale - realistically, I reckon you're looking at 5-10 years for it to be consistently delivering results that lift us above where we've been on average over the last 20-30 years. I think in order for this to be the case we need a period of competent managerial stability, and I optimistic that Fenlon will provide that, and we desparately need not to be relegated.

[Sammy7nil]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Perhaps we would, however i know for a fact we have a training centre and the best stadium outside the old firm

I know for a fact I am getting old and Hibs are a million miles away from any success.

I also know I am becoming more impatient and selfish and I am desperate for something positive to happen at ER very very soon.

[Dr Jimmy]

Those advocating the closure of east mains are being dafty, but I do question the need to build and fund it ourselves.
Hearts have a good deal at Riccarton (when they pay the bill) and the council appear to be willing to listen to them whenever they need something. Could we not have done something with the council for part funding? I have bags if time for STF (esp during the HoH campaign), but the building of east mains looks over the top for what we needed and dare I say it.....increases the price STF may get for selling us.

BTW its also in the mddle of nowhere and must be a factor for parents who's kids have the choice between us and Hearts.

[cocopops1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Those advocating the closure of east mains are being dafty, but I do question the need to build and fund it ourselves.
Hearts have a good deal at Riccarton (when they pay the bill) and the council appear to be willing to listen to them whenever they need something. Could we not have done something with the council for part funding? I have bags if time for STF (esp during the HoH campaign), but the building of east mains looks over the top for what we needed and dare I say it.....increases the price STF may get for selling us.

BTW its also in the mddle of nowhere and must be a factor for parents who's kids have the choice between us and Hearts.

Many good points mate 1st though is our lovely council had no interest when a joint project at the jack kane was floated. 2nd Where do the hearts kids train i doubt its at Riccarton ? 3 Just out of interest what do you regard as "over the top"

[LeithBoozy]

As far as am aware Max, Hibs own EM outright. Money from the Brown and Thomson transfers were put aside and ring-fenced, so the argument that we should have bought players is academic. As once money has been ring-fenced, it is not possible to spend it on anything else.

[truehibernian]

It's not East Mains that' the problem, it is the players that have been allowed to come in, most of whom have not been playing regular football, many of whom have come to Hibs on the back of serious injuries........the prosecution leads with

Valdas Trakys.......more clubs than Tiger Woods
Michael Hart.......two long term absences at Preston due to injury, had not played regular football over two years there
Kevin McBride.......again, suffered injuries at Falkirk and came to Hibs not even a Falkirk regular
Matt Thornhill.......had never made inroads in the Forest first team and was a reserve footballer
Junior Agogo.........signed due to a 'pals act' IMHO
Victor Palsson.......reserve footballer, had not had any first team action other than loan spell (I think Dagenham ??)
Graham Stack....always a second or third choice keeper, has never established himself as a No1 at any club he has been at
Darryl Duffy.......was out the picture at a poor Bristol Rovers side, suffered injuries previously
Alan Gow........again, started to become the football mercenary, hadn't played any football of note at either Rangers or Norwich
Francis Dickoh.........out the picture at his Dutch club and I believe had attitude their too
Paddy Cregg........the 'old pals act' comes in again......in fairness, came but was never played
Ivan Sproule.......had become a bit part at Bristol, sent on loan and hadn't set the heather on fire at mighty Yeovil
Garry O'Connor.....RP can dress it any way he wants, no one I think would touch him due to off field problems
Akpo Sodje........out the picture at Charlton.
Jonathan Grounds............reserve footballer at Boro, no first team experience


East Mains the problem......I would say, imagine you are an employer and you see the names above as candidates. Would you, even with limited football knowledge, employ them if you wanted to create a dynamic, winning, and unified team of professionals ?

Think of the salaries and signing on fees that the above have carried and would you rather have someone, acting on behalf of the manager, doing proper scouting, more due diligence with regards on and off field issues, more care is examining their injury records and first team starts.......and would you rather see their salaries being used to entice 4 or 5 players who have played regular first team football, have had no such injury woes, can hit the ground running, want to progress to the next level and have proper experience and leadership skills ? Even paying a transfer fee to get them

If we had proper scouting and manager's and a Board who did proper consultation, then we could have been seeing Jonny Russell, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Jamie Murphy, Webster, Johnny Hayes, Rooney, Pascali etc at Hibernian.

We also have a board that cannot resist the temptation to sell, as seen in Sol Bamba, Merouane Zemmama, Anthony Stokes, at ludicrous stages of the season. A Board who couldn't act fast and secure Liam Miller, who in all honesty, was a good technical footballer who should have been persuaded to stay.......ask yourselves why the likes of Dundee Utd were able to keep and retain Goodwillie, Daly, Conway, Bauben and Co.......and win a Cup and get to Cup Finals in the process. Yes - they lost out on income with transfers, but they replace well.....Russell, Daly, Dixon, Scott Allan, Kenneth and MacKay-Stevens have seen them continue to perform at this level.

Dundee Utd would kill for our infrastructure......I would love to have their chairman. A real fan, a real 'fitba man' (sorry, had to say it) and someone who isn't afraid to face the fans. We have Rod, who yet again hides behind a statement and who has no real passionate desire to get Hibernian up where it should be (IMO). I watched Geoff Brown's recent BBC interview and he was refeshingly blunt, honest and true to himself and Saints.....but you could see the passion in his eyes for the club. I don't see that with Rod, Scott and Fyfe.....I just see men in suits looking for excuses for their and the team's ineptness.

[calumb]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's not East Mains that' the problem, it is the players that have been allowed to come in, most of whom have not been playing regular football, many of whom have come to Hibs on the back of serious injuries........the prosecution leads with

Valdas Trakys.......more clubs than Tiger Woods
Michael Hart.......two long term absences at Preston due to injury, had not played regular football over two years there
Kevin McBride.......again, suffered injuries at Falkirk and came to Hibs not even a Falkirk regular
Matt Thornhill.......had never made inroads in the Forest first team and was a reserve footballer
Junior Agogo.........signed due to a 'pals act' IMHO
Victor Palsson.......reserve footballer, had not had any first team action other than loan spell (I think Dagenham ??)
Graham Stack....always a second or third choice keeper, has never established himself as a No1 at any club he has been at
Darryl Duffy.......was out the picture at a poor Bristol Rovers side, suffered injuries previously
Alan Gow........again, started to become the football mercenary, hadn't played any football of note at either Rangers or Norwich
Francis Dickoh.........out the picture at his Dutch club and I believe had attitude their too
Paddy Cregg........the 'old pals act' comes in again......in fairness, came but was never played
Ivan Sproule.......had become a bit part at Bristol, sent on loan and hadn't set the heather on fire at mighty Yeovil
Garry O'Connor.....RP can dress it any way he wants, no one I think would touch him due to off field problems
Akpo Sodje........out the picture at Charlton.
Jonathan Grounds............reserve footballer at Boro, no first team experience


East Mains the problem......I would say, imagine you are an employer and you see the names above as candidates. Would you, even with limited football knowledge, employ them if you wanted to create a dynamic, winning, and unified team of professionals ?

Think of the salaries and signing on fees that the above have carried and would you rather have someone, acting on behalf of the manager, doing proper scouting, more due diligence with regards on and off field issues, more care is examining their injury records and first team starts.......and would you rather see their salaries being used to entice 4 or 5 players who have played regular first team football, have had no such injury woes, can hit the ground running, want to progress to the next level and have proper experience and leadership skills ? Even paying a transfer fee to get them

If we had proper scouting and manager's and a Board who did proper consultation, then we could have been seeing Jonny Russell, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Jamie Murphy, Webster, Johnny Hayes, Rooney, Pascali etc at Hibernian.

We also have a board that cannot resist the temptation to sell, as seen in Sol Bamba, Merouane Zemmama, Anthony Stokes, at ludicrous stages of the season. A Board who couldn't act fast and secure Liam Miller, who in all honesty, was a good technical footballer who should have been persuaded to stay.......ask yourselves why the likes of Dundee Utd were able to keep and retain Goodwillie, Daly, Conway, Bauben and Co.......and win a Cup and get to Cup Finals in the process. Yes - they lost out on income with transfers, but they replace well.....Russell, Daly, Dixon, Scott Allan, Kenneth and MacKay-Stevens have seen them continue to perform at this level.

Dundee Utd would kill for our infrastructure......I would love to have their chairman. A real fan, a real 'fitba man' (sorry, had to say it) and someone who isn't afraid to face the fans. We have Rod, who yet again hides behind a statement and who has no real passionate desire to get Hibernian up where it should be (IMO). I watched Geoff Brown's recent BBC interview and he was refeshingly blunt, honest and true to himself and Saints.....but you could see the passion in his eyes for the club. I don't see that with Rod, Scott and Fyfe.....I just see men in suits looking for excuses for their and the team's ineptness.

post is spot on, its also pretty depressing. The money the club have wasted in 3 years on the gash listed above must be staggering.
You have to wonder how it can be changed as the guys in suits will be reluctant to get off the half a million a year gravy train just as the players who rave about east mains facilities will be reluctant to put down the pool cues and xbox controllers and do some work.

[cocopops1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

post is spot on, its also pretty depressing. The money the club have wasted in 3 years on the gash listed above must be staggering.
You have to wonder how it can be changed as the guys in suits will be reluctant to get off the half a million a year gravy train just as the players who rave about east mains facilities will be reluctant to put down the pool cues and xbox controllers and do some work.

Im sure this is a fair reflection of day to day events at east mains :roll eyes: shocked you didn't mention a drinking culture and some betting

[calumb]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Im sure this is a fair reflection of day to day events at east mains :roll eyes: shocked you didn't mention a drinking culture and some betting

aye i know, never ever been more depressed about Hibs and the thought of the money thats been wasted didnae help much

[Brizo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nae probs. Perhaps someone has definitive figures. I think in general its better to invest as much as possible rather than cut corners - I dont know what the going rate for a training centre is so cant comment if its a lot or not.

I meant that the approximate salaries offered, and lengths of contracts available are broadly similar to our competitors (apart from the obvious exceptions). As for your precise questions, I dont know the answer to any of them, but equally you cant make the claim that it hasnt improved players - we dont know because theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players. But intuitively it makes sense to believe that good conditions, good surfaces, good equipment and good resources are more likely to inprove things than not having them. How these facilities are used is a different matter, and that comes down to management ability. East Mains itself cannot, surely, offer the opportunity to do anything but improve a player if utilised properly

I've been to watch Hartlepool, and I'd suggest it'd take a lot more than few hundred quid extra to get someone down there

But the point is arguable. It will depend on individuals, where they are in their career, how keen they are to move. I dont think anyone would ever claim that EM is an overarching reason for a player staying or signing, but it must be a factor. along with staying in Edinburgh, salary, proximity to family etc. (It's always struck me as odd that more than most careers, football expects young guys to up sticks and move away from friends and family at the drop of a hat and immediatel ystart performing at the hughest level. Odd). And even if it is not a consideration on that process, its almost a moot point - the aim is surely to make players better. The bricks and mortar wont do that on their own, but can assist if, as I said above, it is used properly.

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

[Scouse Hibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

Gotcha!

[Twa Cairpets]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

Faith? Me? Perish the thought...

I agree that coaching ability is of primary importance, but a good coach will do better with better facilities and resources and a poor coach will do worse with poor facilities and resources. At a stratospherically different level of the game, I can attest to this from personal experience. (Again, anecdote doesnt equal evidence, but I'm not aware of any double blinded studies that could illustrate this...). I can't prove definitive proof of this, but I think the hypothesis "A group of athletes will, given the same access to coaching resource, perform better when training in good conditions and with quality resources if contrasted with training with poor resources and condition" is stronger that "conditions and resources mamke no difference to the training performance of atheltes".

I dont think the individual player monitoring is valid (like Pallson as you mentioned) as it is equally impossible to say how much further he would/could have gone backwards had he not been training at EM.

There's no evidence yet, I agree - I've said elsewhere it needs a period of competent footballing management stability and other factors (such as budget etc) to be fair for it to really show consistent benefit.

[GreenPJ]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

So a good coach with good facilities vs a good coach with poor facilities, which would do better.

[Eyrie]

If any one of Collins, Mixu, Hughes or Calderwood had had half a clue about signing decent players would we be having this discussion?

I'd rather have the facilities than have wasted even more money on sub-standard players. Not one of those four managers had a good record for signing the right players so there is no reason to suppose that a bigger budget would have made any difference.

[KeithTheHibby]

Been mentioned already but the infrastructure of the club is essential to the future.

I guess the majority of EM and Easter Road has been paid for through player sales however nothing can be done about that now.


Having our own training centre and fully developed stadium should ensure that the club can go forward...off the park at least.

EM is not the problem, it is players that have been brought in.

Puting aside the amount of managers we seem to go through for the time being - who is responsible for our scouting network?

Watching St J yesterday I seen at least 4 players who would enhance our team easy. Jody Morris, Lee Croft, Sandaza and the other lad up front.
How on earth have these guys ended up playing for St J???
Now it is easy to use those players as an example however you can also look at what Motherwell have achieved along with St Mirren and Inverness to an extent.

Tiny clubs in comparison to us yet manage to out perform us consistently.

The problem is not East Mains, that is for sure.

[dp00]

I'm told that things are majorly changing down east mains, some ppl who used to be able to walk in and out because they were a known face are now being refused access. the place is becoming more professional and the players are spending more time there along with strict rules on when players are required to turn up at.

Hopefully start to see the benefits of the hard work

[BEEJ]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives

It's not - £4.9m was the figure quoted in the Board statement at the end of January 2008, a month after it opened.

Confirmed in the 07/08 accounts, as I recall.