Get rid o east mains

[LeithBoozy]

Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.

[Sammy7nil]

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Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.

If that is the case perhaps we should sell some of the gold and invest on the pitch just a thought.

We are a Football Club not a bank.

[Since90+2]

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Wait a minute how's that really going to help, every player that we have signed or loaned recently has made reference to the clubs superb training facilities as being one of the reasons they were attracted to the club. Without this facility we would never have been able to sign players of this calibre, where would we be without them.

And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

[Spike Mandela]

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And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

whoooooosh

[Dr Jimmy]

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Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.

Are you sure Hibs own the extra land and not STF?

[Big Frank]

Yes, you are right. Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

[Spike Mandela]

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Yes, you are right. Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

Is your experience of supporting Hibs enhanced by having a superb training facility? Thought not.

[Big Frank]

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Is your experience of supporting Hibs enhanced by having a superb training facility? Thought not.

You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

Crap thread.

[cocopops1875]

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How much did EM cost to build and how much does it cost to maintain each year.

£5m to build and £500,000 per year to run ish . i assume there is to be a punchline ?

[Heckys Wheel]

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You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

Crap thread.

Ha ha I've been trying to think of something to say that shows this thread up for the tripe it is but this sums it.

You ever noticed Hibs were better when you could only buy black boots and the players only drank water. I blame Predator boots and powerade for the state of our club!

In fact, did we not win the Scottish cup with one of those brown leather footballs with the stitching up them? Do away with these fancy Dan light weight balls and lets get back to winning cups again!

[Spike Mandela]

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You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

Crap thread.

Ok word it another way Frank are Hibs **** because we spent £9m on a training centre and stand but not on the team.

You can argue all you want about short termism but I am convinced money into the squad over these years would have benefited us more than a training centre. We would not be discussing relegation and I am sure we would not be enviously looking at other clubs with great facilities.

[Twa Cairpets]

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We never had a training centre for over 125 years of our existence as a club but the now we have one nothing has improved. Yet according to you Every forward thinking club must have one and anyone against it is showing crass stupidity.

For me the players we have just now look as though they would benefit from a few laps round a public park avoiding dog turds and using jumpers for goal posts. For me it is all for show, "look at us we're a forward thinking club, well run and an example to others financially". Unfortunately it's all 'fur coat and nae knickers'.

Utter, utter tripe. Gonnae post to tell me that actually this is just a wind up I'm missing spectularly?

And yes, anyone claiming that we shouldnt have a state of the art training facility is absolutely showing crass stupidity. Your view appears to be one of "never did me any harm when I was a lad" rather than actually accepting that the world of professional is a tad different now than it was in the past. Defending your argument by some fallacious appeal to antiquity isn't making a point, it's crassly stupid.

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No, but you can roll it in glitter.

I think the training facility is proving to be a drain on the budget and we've perhaps lost the team building effect that trianing in less than ideal facilities brings. Travelling around in mini buses looking for facilities can probably help bring a team together rather than turning up at a training centre in their own cars.

We're also suffering from short termism. How many of our players are brought here with a suggestion that if they do well they'll be able to move on to bigger things? How many are coming to Hibs thinking that they could actually be here long enough to sign a contract extension?

Ambition is good but we need players who want to be here, be part of something. When was the last time we had a team with a solid spine? Even when we got close under Collins there was still a keeper flapping around at the back.

Ye Gods. This is not an Sunday Amateur team (admittedly at times this season I've wondered, but it's nothing to do with not driving around together in a minibus looking for a bit of grass).

Short termism? The irony is lost on you obviously - how many pro players are going to accept this vision of 1970's-esque faux camaeraderie for any length of time when better options are out there. EVERY player at EVERY club is looking to do the best they can for their career be that moving on to a higher level or knuckling down to be a key player at the club. Different motivations for players at different ages and stages of their career, but in a short career of course its going to be short term. You're labouring under the misapphension that players play for a club for the same altruistic reasons fans go to the games. There may be a cross over of motive for some, but for the most part its down to raw economics.

[Brizo]

In EM we have EPL standard facilities but operate in a marketplace where we can only attract players from the lower English leagues or those with baggage such as GOC and Griffiths. Daily exposure to those facilities has done nothing to improve the technique or ability of the conveyor belt of journeyman signings who have left the club just as p@sh as the day they arrived. You can stable the store horse at Epsom but its still the store horse.

As for it attracting players no doubt players will cite it as a factor when they sign but have any said they were offered more money elsewhere but chose Hibs with less wages because of the attraction of EM ? Prospective signings will choose a club with public park training facilities over us and EM every time if that other club offer them better wages.

I agree we needed a designated training facility but feel we could have got one cheaper than the 5 mill cost and £500,000 annual upkeep costs quoted by a previous poster. Weve got champagne facilities for pomagne players which imho is a disparity which hasnt proved cost effective.

[Twa Cairpets]

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In EM we have EPL standard facilities but operate in a marketplace where we can only attract players from the lower English leagues or those with baggage such as GOC and Griffiths. Daily exposure to those facilities has done nothing to improve the technique or ability of the conveyor belt of journeyman signings who have left the club just as p@sh as the day they arrived. You can stable the store horse at Epsom but its still the store horse.

As for it attracting players no doubt players will cite it as a factor when they sign but have any said they were offered more money elsewhere but chose Hibs with less wages because of the attraction of EM ? Prospective signings will choose a club with public park training facilities over us and EM every time if that other club offer them better wages.

I agree we needed a designated training facility but feel we could have got one cheaper than the 5 mill cost and £500,000 annual upkeep costs quoted by a previous poster. Weve got champagne facilities for pomagne players which imho is a disparity which hasnt proved cost effective.

Before this £500K pa becomes accepted wisdom, is there any actual proof or evidence of this? Is there any comparison between what this costs and the costs associated with not having a facility - gyms, transport etc? If uit is this figure (and it might be, I dont know it does seem high, but that is entirely a different point).

as fo rthe level of players available, yes, youre right, but in the assumption that all other factors are equal, and wages are of marginal difference between us and our direct competitors, then the presence of the facility may make a difference in the decision making process.

Whilst a lot does come to economics as I've said, equally there is the view of "what next?". If a club is set up to take care of you as a player it will appear more. An analogy is the industry I work in. Companies have offered my clients better financial packages, but they have not had these backed up by what is behind them by way of facilities, and there is greater confidence in looking at the whole package. EM is part of that package. It should also provide a much better environement for youth players to develop in.

[Sammy7nil]

Perhaps we could sell EM I hear there is a BIG team in Edinburgh looking for land to build a stadium and training facliities?

[blackpoolhibs]

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Get rid of Easter Road we rarely win there.

Every team even the best have a bogy ground, ours just happens to be easter road.

[calumb]

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Perhaps we could sell EM I hear there is a BIG team in Edinburgh looking for land to build a stadium and training facliities?

Do Hibs actually own the place to sell, i know it was paid for by selling the golden generation but does STF not own it? or is that just the extra land across the road?

[Spike Mandela]

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Utter, utter tripe. Gonnae post to tell me that actually this is just a wind up I'm missing spectularly?

And yes, anyone claiming that we shouldnt have a state of the art training facility is absolutely showing crass stupidity. Your view appears to be one of "never did me any harm when I was a lad" rather than actually accepting that the world of professional is a tad different now than it was in the past. Defending your argument by some fallacious appeal to antiquity isn't making a point, it's crassly stupid.



Ye Gods. This is not an Sunday Amateur team (admittedly at times this season I've wondered, but it's nothing to do with not driving around together in a minibus looking for a bit of grass).

Short termism? The irony is lost on you obviously - how many pro players are going to accept this vision of 1970's-esque faux camaeraderie for any length of time when better options are out there. EVERY player at EVERY club is looking to do the best they can for their career be that moving on to a higher level or knuckling down to be a key player at the club. Different motivations for players at different ages and stages of their career, but in a short career of course its going to be short term. You're labouring under the misapphension that players play for a club for the same altruistic reasons fans go to the games. There may be a cross over of motive for some, but for the most part its down to raw economics.

Not going to fall in to the trap of ridiculing your opinion or calling others stupid, i prefer to put it that I fundemantally disagree with you twocarpets.

The brutal fact is I don't care where the players train or how professional that makes us look to the outside world, I don't care that we have a shiny new stand instead of just giving the old one a lick of paint.

I only care about what I pay to watch every season. The training centre and the stand were a 'nice to have' but I believe the state the team is in now is an inevitability due to the strategy of investing in infrastructure at the expense of the team.

But, we are where we are, and Hibs will have a good side again at some point and we will have many troughs before a peak possibly even relegation(hope not). I just sometimes wonder if we could have been self sustaining by investing our riches in better players and selling them on, we will never know.

The fact I mentioned the length of time we have existed without a training centre wasn't some romantic longing for the older days I just meant we weren't going to collapse in to an abyss because we didn't have a training centre. We may have had a progressive outlook as a modern football club but we have regressed as a team.

[Big Frank]

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Ok word it another way Frank are Hibs **** because we spent £9m on a training centre and stand but not on the team.

You can argue all you want about short termism but I am convinced money into the squad over these years would have benefited us more than a training centre. We would not be discussing relegation and I am sure we would not be enviously looking at other clubs with great facilities.

Now the stand aswell......

Spike, its a lot of nonsense man.

We have crap players spike. The last 2 managers have been woeful (imho). We have bought awful players. We have not replaced adequately in areas all over the pitch. We have been crying out for a decent CH (x2) for years.

This is why we find ourselves fighting relegation Spike.

[Spike Mandela]

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Now the stand aswell......

Spike, its a lot of nonsense man.

We have crap players spike. The last 2 managers have been woeful (imho). We have bought awful players. We have not replaced adequately in areas all over the pitch. We have been crying out for a decent CH (x2) for years.

This is why we find ourselves fighting relegation Spike.

Why is it difficult to accept that if we had more money and were shopping in a higher standard market place that CC, Mixu, Yogi and JC stood a better chance of picking up good players.

Is it not a universal truth that Rangers, Celtic and Hearts have better players because they spend more money than us. Hearts spent money they never had but we had money and chose to invest in infrastructure and not the team.

[cocopops1875]

Also surely the investments made were not bought and paid for outright some of the funds will have been based on a loan. Not sure as im no whizz with finance but would these not be only available against a "bricks and mortor purchase? So the let's call it 10million would not have been anywhere near that sum on the pitch. Ps how much have they horrible chuds from over the road put on the pitch ?

[Brizo]

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Before this £500K pa becomes accepted wisdom, is there any actual proof or evidence of this? Is there any comparison between what this costs and the costs associated with not having a facility - gyms, transport etc? If uit is this figure (and it might be, I dont know it does seem high, but that is entirely a different point).

as fo rthe level of players available, yes, youre right, but in the assumption that all other factors are equal, and wages are of marginal difference between us and our direct competitors, then the presence of the facility may make a difference in the decision making process.

Whilst a lot does come to economics as I've said, equally there is the view of "what next?". If a club is set up to take care of you as a player it will appear more. An analogy is the industry I work in. Companies have offered my clients better financial packages, but they have not had these backed up by what is behind them by way of facilities, and there is greater confidence in looking at the whole package. EM is part of that package. It should also provide a much better environement for youth players to develop in.

Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives

Re para 2 how often are all factors equal , thats a hypothetical thats never going to happen in the real world. The centres been open a wee while now. Tell me a player whose come to us and cited EM as the main motivation for signing ie ahead of wages or living in Edinburgh. Leading on from that tell me a player who has come to Hibs whose ability and technique have improved significantly and who's cited daily use of EM as the reason. Tell me a player who has come and said that EM has not just made them a better player but a fitter one also. I cant think of any.

Re para 3 i think you credit the average player with too much intelligence. Im sure they like EM but do you honestly think if say Harlepool offered a player a few hundred quid more a month and training on Hartlepool beach theyd say im staying at Hibs because of EM. Its all about the paypacket. EM may well benefit youth players but its all about the raw material and the finding of that raw material. In that regard id have preferred to see money saved from building a less costly facilty channelled into building a more widespread and professional youth scouting system.

[Big Frank]

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Why is it difficult to accept that if we had more money and were shopping in a higher standard market place that CC, Mixu, Yogi and JC stood a better chance of picking up good players.

Is it not a universal truth that Rangers, Celtic and Hearts have better players because they spend more money than us. Hearts spent money they never had but we had money and chose to invest in infrastructure and not the team.

Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground make no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.

[Sammy7nil]

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Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground make no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.

The reason we think more money = more success is because it is a Fact proven over years and years.

Barca - Real Madrid most money most success
Man Utd Chelsea Arsenal now Man city most money most success
Milan clubs and Juventus most money most success
Bayern Munich most money most success
Rangers Celtic most money most success

You could through every league in the world money = success not imeadiate I will grant you but over time you invest money on players you will get success.

[Spike Mandela]

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Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground mae no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.

This fourth biggest budget phrase get's trotted out a lot ( pedantically I should mention we are 5th behind Aberdeen this year) but i have a major reservation about this.

Yes a good Hibs team would benefit from this if they only required one or two new additions to improve the team but year on year managers have to try and compensate for weaknesses in every area of the team thus diluting our budget over too many new additions.

Our budget won't go far trying to improve the deficiences in our current team.

[Twa Cairpets]

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Not going to fall in to the trap of ridiculing your opinion or calling others stupid, i prefer to put it that I fundemantally disagree with you twocarpets.

The brutal fact is I don't care where the players train or how professional that makes us look to the outside world, I don't care that we have a shiny new stand instead of just giving the old one a lick of paint.

I only care about what I pay to watch every season. The training centre and the stand were a 'nice to have' but I believe the state the team is in now is an inevitability due to the strategy of investing in infrastructure at the expense of the team.

But, we are where we are, and Hibs will have a good side again at some point and we will have many troughs before a peak possibly even relegation(hope not). I just sometimes wonder if we could have been self sustaining by investing our riches in better players and selling them on, we will never know.

The fact I mentioned the length of time we have existed without a training centre wasn't some romantic longing for the older days I just meant we weren't going to collapse in to an abyss because we didn't have a training centre. We may have had a progressive outlook as a modern football club but we have regressed as a team.

I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

[Sammy7nil]

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I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

[Twa Cairpets]

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Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives

Nae probs. Perhaps someone has definitive figures. I think in general its better to invest as much as possible rather than cut corners - I dont know what the going rate for a training centre is so cant comment if its a lot or not.

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Re para 2 how often are all factors equal , thats a hypothetical thats never going to happen in the real world. The centres been open a wee while now. Tell me a player whose come to us and cited EM as the main motivation for signing ie ahead of wages or living in Edinburgh. Leading on from that tell me a player who has come to Hibs whose ability and technique have improved significantly and who's cited daily use of EM as the reason. Tell me a player who has come and said that EM has not just made them a better player but a fitter one also. I cant think of any.

I meant that the approximate salaries offered, and lengths of contracts available are broadly similar to our competitors (apart from the obvious exceptions). As for your precise questions, I dont know the answer to any of them, but equally you cant make the claim that it hasnt improved players - we dont know because theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players. But intuitively it makes sense to believe that good conditions, good surfaces, good equipment and good resources are more likely to inprove things than not having them. How these facilities are used is a different matter, and that comes down to management ability. East Mains itself cannot, surely, offer the opportunity to do anything but improve a player if utilised properly

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Re para 3 i think you credit the average player with too much intelligence. Im sure they like EM but do you honestly think if say Harlepool offered a player a few hundred quid more a month and training on Hartlepool beach theyd say im staying at Hibs because of EM. Its all about the paypacket. EM may well benefit youth players but its all about the raw material and the finding of that raw material. In that regard id have preferred to see money saved from building a less costly facilty channelled into building a more widespread and professional youth scouting system.

I've been to watch Hartlepool, and I'd suggest it'd take a lot more than few hundred quid extra to get someone down there

But the point is arguable. It will depend on individuals, where they are in their career, how keen they are to move. I dont think anyone would ever claim that EM is an overarching reason for a player staying or signing, but it must be a factor. along with staying in Edinburgh, salary, proximity to family etc. (It's always struck me as odd that more than most careers, football expects young guys to up sticks and move away from friends and family at the drop of a hat and immediatel ystart performing at the hughest level. Odd). And even if it is not a consideration on that process, its almost a moot point - the aim is surely to make players better. The bricks and mortar wont do that on their own, but can assist if, as I said above, it is used properly.

[Gatecrasher]

at the time i thought it was the way forward but now i think hibs should have built a smaller all weather facility. we need to keep it as we now have it imo

[Spike Mandela]

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I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

Can I just point out I am not advocating the closure of EM as per title of thread (like Ed Miliband i oppose the cuts but wouldn't reverse them). I believe the current position we are in is a direct result of spending on the infrastructure instead of the team. However we are stuck with them.

As for your second paragraph twocarpets this gets to the crux of where we respectively differ. I would rather have had the past few year of better players on better wages. Yes it may have been as you say but who is to say it wouldn't have been cup wins, European excursions and fabulous games of football at a packed ER.

I don't know about you but I am not getting any younger and would rather pay to see good quality teams and players now rather than invest to ensure the next generation get a good team in 20 years.time. Perhaps selfish but my honest, heartfelt opinion.