Signing spree

[IWasThere2016]

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How much did we spend on the stand and the training centre?

£7m? Less?

After signing on fees, agent's commission, compensation/transfer fees, I wonder what we'd have got for that. And for how long.

Had Hibs taken the short term strategy which you're advocating, that money would now be with other clubs and in players' and agents' pockets and we'd still be training in public parks and the stadium would still be a joke.

And, the team would only be marginally stronger, assuming the signings worked out and there's no guarantee of that.

Not going to bite

[Spike Mandela]

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How much did we spend on the stand and the training centre?

£7m? Less?

After signing on fees, agent's commission, compensation/transfer fees, I wonder what we'd have got for that. And for how long.

Had Hibs taken the short term strategy which you're advocating, that money would now be with other clubs and in players' and agents' pockets and we'd still be training in public parks and the stadium would still be a joke.

And, the team would only be marginally stronger, assuming the signings worked out and there's no guarantee of that.

£7m? Who knows how far it could have went and how better our performances could have been. Sign better players offer them better wages and they have a resale value then reinvest in team perpetually. Doesn't work every time but more chance of it than trawling round the bargain bins as we are now.

Training in public parks and stadium a joke, So What! Never done Stanton any harm or Sauzee and would probably toughen up the lightweights we have now. New training centre and stand have not added one single bit to my viewing pleasure since they were built. Could live without them.

[Cropley10]

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£7m? Who knows how far it could have went and how better our performances could have been. Sign better players offer them better wages and they have a resale value then reinvest in team perpetually. Doesn't work every time but more chance of it than trawling round the bargain bins as we are now.

Training in public parks and stadium a joke, So What! Never done Stanton any harm or Sauzee and would probably toughen up the lightweights we have now. New training centre and stand have not added one single bit to my viewing pleasure since they were built. Could live without them.

Funny thing is if we were say top 4 or 5 in the league and were last year, the Board, and in essence, RP, would look like a genius. Now the Club look like they've simply messed up, neglecting the team on the pitch and creating a negative, downward spiral where the SFL beckons.

To have built a new stand and the place never having been a sell-out since tells its own story. It wasn't needed and might never be needed.

[Bad Martini]

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How much did we spend on the stand and the training centre?

£7m? Less?

After signing on fees, agent's commission, compensation/transfer fees, I wonder what we'd have got for that. And for how long.

Had Hibs taken the short term strategy which you're advocating, that money would now be with other clubs and in players' and agents' pockets and we'd still be training in public parks and the stadium would still be a joke.

And, the team would only be marginally stronger, assuming the signings worked out and there's no guarantee of that.

However much we spent, it wasnt the correct in order in which to spend it. Nobody would deny a big stand is useful as is a new training centre. But, house should have been put in order first i.e. the product which as many of us said at the time, was more important. As many of us also said at the time, do it the wrong way round and it'll cost us...and it has, and it does, and it will continue to do so.

£7m? Less? <<< No matter...every penny too much when considering our current plight.

I wonder what we'd have got for the money and how long too but whatever it is and whoever we got, if it was an improvement on our current squad, it would be a good thing. A self-filling POSITIVE vicious circle would hopefully have (more chance) of being fulfilled whereby some modicum of success = more fans, more money, more sales of merchandise and higher league standings, more cup success etc etc et ***** settera.

By the way, the short term strategy would have been the right strategy here I rather feel; because short term, we're gonna lose far more in the first division. Regards the public parks - didnt do our cup winning team any harm did it? Or our teams deemed as "good" / "decent" / "acceptable" or even "not as ***** as this crap" over the last 5, 10, 15+ years???

Right now, I'd take a team that is marginally stronger...

As someone has pointed out though. Its not just about what we havent spent on players or what we HAVE spent on other stuff as we discuss here. It's also about our string of managerial failures and at least some of that blame MUST go to the people who have hired these complete failures...........

Combined, we've not given ourselves much of a chance. We sold or lost many talented players. We made millions from our sales yet didnt reinvest in THEE most important thing we have; our team. Our assetts are NOT East Mains, Easter Road Stadium or anything else of bricks and mortar, grass or otherwise. These will not, ever, in themselves bring us in a penny WITHOUT, a decent team to use them.

We NEED investment in our team. The right investment. Managerial appointments are key here and crucially, when we DO have decent assets (aka as "football players" to our financially astute board with pound signs in eyes) lets no strip them all out and sell them on.....maybe have the ****ing balls to keep them and try to build on that.

Fans dont follow big (never been filled) stands or nice, shiny, pampering palaces/training grounds. They follow the team on the pitch and it's what happens THERE that matters most. Usefully, the one aspect of our infrastructure which seems to have had the wrong balance of financial backing when we had the chance to do so.

Nae excuses. Nae spin. We raked in millions (millions) from player sales and didnt buy more players. We invested elsewhere. And that is why, there's a good chance we COULD be relegated.

ENDOF

[Hibbyradge]

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£7m? Who knows how far it could have went and how better our performances could have been. Sign better players offer them better wages and they have a resale value then reinvest in team perpetually. Doesn't work every time but more chance of it than trawling round the bargain bins as we are now.

Training in public parks and stadium a joke, So What! Never done Stanton any harm or Sauzee and would probably toughen up the lightweights we have now. New training centre and stand have not added one single bit to my viewing pleasure since they were built. Could live without them.

We tried to sign Hamil, Black and Webster, but were outbid by Hearts.

I was told that Hibs offered Webster around £7.5/8k a week so we can only guess how much extra we'd have had to offer to get these players and I'm pretty certain that they will have taken far more from Hearts than they'll get back from resales.

I'm really glad we didn't go down that route.

[steakbake]

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However much we spent, it wasnt the correct in order in which to spend it. Nobody would deny a big stand is useful as is a new training centre. But, house should have been put in order first i.e. the product which as many of us said at the time, was more important. As many of us also said at the time, do it the wrong way round and it'll cost us...and it has, and it does, and it will continue to do so.

£7m? Less? <<< No matter...every penny too much when considering our current plight.

I wonder what we'd have got for the money and how long too but whatever it is and whoever we got, if it was an improvement on our current squad, it would be a good thing. A self-filling POSITIVE vicious circle would hopefully have (more chance) of being fulfilled whereby some modicum of success = more fans, more money, more sales of merchandise and higher league standings, more cup success etc etc et ***** settera.

By the way, the short term strategy would have been the right strategy here I rather feel; because short term, we're gonna lose far more in the first division. Regards the public parks - didnt do our cup winning team any harm did it? Or our teams deemed as "good" / "decent" / "acceptable" or even "not as ***** as this crap" over the last 5, 10, 15+ years???

Right now, I'd take a team that is marginally stronger...

As someone has pointed out though. Its not just about what we havent spent on players or what we HAVE spent on other stuff as we discuss here. It's also about our string of managerial failures and at least some of that blame MUST go to the people who have hired these complete failures...........

Combined, we've not given ourselves much of a chance. We sold or lost many talented players. We made millions from our sales yet didnt reinvest in THEE most important thing we have; our team. Our assetts are NOT East Mains, Easter Road Stadium or anything else of bricks and mortar, grass or otherwise. These will not, ever, in themselves bring us in a penny WITHOUT, a decent team to use them.

We NEED investment in our team. The right investment. Managerial appointments are key here and crucially, when we DO have decent assets (aka as "football players" to our financially astute board with pound signs in eyes) lets no strip them all out and sell them on.....maybe have the ****ing balls to keep them and try to build on that.

Fans dont follow big (never been filled) stands or nice, shiny, pampering palaces/training grounds. They follow the team on the pitch and it's what happens THERE that matters most. Usefully, the one aspect of our infrastructure which seems to have had the wrong balance of financial backing when we had the chance to do so.

Nae excuses. Nae spin. We raked in millions (millions) from player sales and didnt buy more players. We invested elsewhere. And that is why, there's a good chance we COULD be relegated.

ENDOF

The bottom line.

Would rather have folk being turned away because there are not enough seats in an old-style stadium to watch a team actually performing well on the park, than to have a fancy half-empty vanity stand, opposite Nero's comfy seat in the West with piss poor mercenaries struggling to string a pass together.

I can see why the stand was built and the training centre. But for all this chatter about the third best equipped team in the SPL, the league table speaks for itself.

[Spike Mandela]

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We tried to sign Hamil, Black and Webster, but were outbid by Hearts.

I was told that Hibs offered Webster around £7.5/8k a week so we can only guess how much extra we'd have had to offer to get these players and I'm pretty certain that they will have taken far more from Hearts than they'll get back from resales.

I'm really glad we didn't go down that route.

Perhaps if we had signed better players with the offer of better wages at the time we were selling the 'golden generation' we wouldn't have been in the desperate position of having to offer the likes of webster high wages to shore up our feeble defence. I have no knowledge to dispute your claim but if it were true we were able to offer Webster 7.5/8k per week surely we would subsequntly have set our sights a bit higher than O'Hanlon?

Surely the last 4 to 5 years has put paid to the myth that the fabulous training centre and completed stadium benefits us in attracting top players to the club. They were expensive and of little benefit to the club imo

[Andy74]

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The bottom line.

Would rather have folk being turned away because there are not enough seats in an old-style stadium to watch a team actually performing well on the park, than to have a fancy half-empty vanity stand, opposite Nero's comfy seat in the West with piss poor mercenaries struggling to string a pass together.

I can see why the stand was built and the training centre. But for all this chatter about the third best equipped team in the SPL, the league table speaks for itself.

It does just now, but the allegation that we have neglected the playing staff doesn't add up to it being the reason for us doing badly.

If we had the 11th or 12 biggest budget in the league and we were here as a result then it would make sense.

Hughes got a lot of stick on here, is he now blameless?

CC got a lot of stick - is he now blameless too?

Why did they get stick if they were just dealing with a negelected playing budget?

I'm maybe being a bit simplisitc but I expect the 4th biggest playing budget to get you a squad that will be around 4th best. If it doesn't I don't lay the balame at the people who set the budget. If they set it at 11th or 12th I'd blame them.

If we had signed players of the same type of talent as Murphy, Boozy, Shiels, Zemmama, Benji, Killen and Jones we'd have been okay. They were signed on this type of budget.

Instead we have gone for Thornhill, Agogo, Scott, Palsson, Sodje, O'Hanlon and Towell. Chuck in De Graaf and Hart, even Sproule and o'Connor this time round.

These guys probably cost more in wages than the previous list.

It's time we got our heads round the real causes and its not the budget or the investments in the infrastructure. They haven't changed anything.

We get rid of managers because they've been rubbish and yet weeks later we still have this same conversation about the board and the budget. Crazy.

[Spike Mandela]

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It does just now, but the allegation that we have neglected the playing staff doesn't add up to it being the reason for us doing badly.

If we had the 11th or 12 biggest budget in the league and we were here as a result then it would make sense.

Hughes got a lot of stick on here, is he now blameless?

CC got a lot of stick - is he now blameless too?

Why did they get stick if they were just dealing with a negelected playing budget?

I'm maybe being a bit simplisitc but I expect the 4th biggest playing budget to get you a squad that will be around 4th best. If it doesn't I don't lay the balame at the people who set the budget. If they set it at 11th or 12th I'd blame them.

If we had signed players of the same type of talent as Murphy, Boozy, Shiels, Zemmama, Benji, Killen and Jones we'd have been okay. They were signed on this type of budget.

Instead we have gone for Thornhill, Agogo, Scott, Palsson, Sodje, O'Hanlon and Towell. Chuck in De Graaf and Hart, even Sproule and o'Connor this time round.

These guys probably cost more in wages than the previous list.

It's time we got our heads round the real causes and its not the budget or the investments in the infrastructure. They haven't changed anything.

We get rid of managers because they've been rubbish and yet weeks later we still have this same conversation about the board and the budget. Crazy.

So how come the argument goes that Hearts have better players than us because of their wages?

If that's not the case is it just because they had better managers or Vlad is a better judge of a player than any of our managers.?

[steakbake]

Maybe we've bought poorly? Who is responsible for issuing player contracts?

What would you say are the real reasons? The constant churn in managers is not good at all and indicates that the board are either i) totally inept at recognising a good appointment or ii) once appointed, previously capable managers find circumstances at the club which mean their hands are tied? - or indeed, both!

[BEEJ]

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I have no knowledge to dispute your claim but if it were true we were able to offer Webster 7.5/8k per week surely we would subsequntly have set our sights a bit higher than O'Hanlon?

Spot on.

Hard to marry up that claim with who we finally signed.

[Andy74]

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So how come the argument goes that Hearts have better players than us because of their wages?

If that's not the case is it just because they had better managers or Vlad is a better judge of a player than any of our managers.?

Yes they do have better players because of their better wages. And more of them so they can just keep bringing decent players in to the squad. Jonsson and Stevenson haven't been missed in the least.

A bit like us though they haven't always used that well. They have double the budget of any of their competitors yet they are rarely clear in 3rd place. They too are under achieving hugely in comparison to what they pay.

It does illustrate that at even the market they can operate in in there are no guarantees, it is really all about getting the right players in and then getting the most from them.

I don't get how here we can hound the managers and the Board at the same time. Either we haven't provided the money and the managers are blameless, or we have and the managers have failed to use it properly.

If its all about money the league could just be written out after the accounts for each team are published. We'd be about 4th every year and so the Board woul be achieiving their football targets. Hearts would be clear in 3rd by a distance.

[Kaiser1962]

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£7m? Who knows how far it could have went and how better our performances could have been. Sign better players offer them better wages and they have a resale value then reinvest in team perpetually. Doesn't work every time but more chance of it than trawling round the bargain bins as we are now.

Training in public parks and stadium a joke, So What! Never done Stanton any harm or Sauzee and would probably toughen up the lightweights we have now. New training centre and stand have not added one single bit to my viewing pleasure since they were built. Could live without them.

Thing is we spent on players in the late eighties and went bust. We did it again under McLeish and we lost money hand over fist to the point where we were forced to contemplate leaving ER. Use of the word invest would suggest that there is a financial return for the investor when events and outcomes would suggest otherwise.

Hearts have spent big on players as have others before them. It dosent follow that success, and financial security, will come as a result.

To my mind all who have tried have failed. We need to think differently and better than the others.

[The_Todd]

I don't see much evidence of a spree in that article at all. Some unknowns, ex-LOI players and the like. I'm not saying ex LOI players are no good, but there will be a risk attached as to whether they can make it in the SPL and help secure our status this year, and push on for next year. We don't have the luxury of taking risks right now, if we were comfortably midtable with no prospect of Europe or relegation then maybe but if this window isn't used 100% correctly then we'll be in Division One next season.

[Spike Mandela]

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Thing is we spent on players in the late eighties and went bust. We did it again under McLeish and we lost money hand over fist to the point where we were forced to contemplate leaving ER. Use of the word invest would suggest that there is a financial return for the investor when events and outcomes would suggest otherwise.

Hearts have spent big on players as have others before them. It dosent follow that success, and financial security, will come as a result.

To my mind all who have tried have failed. We need to think differently and better than the others.

So that's it then, we are a busted flush. Carry on as we are going, dreadful performances, no entertainment, no crowds, nothing to sell and the usual list of bargain basement flotsam and jetsam turning up in January. Bring in some youngsters from big teams who can't get a game in their first team, older guys with a lengthy career in lower leagues who jump at the chance to play against the OF or pros with such lengthy injury records such that nobody else will touch them.

Depressing stuff! Why should we ****ing care anymore

[matty_f]

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So how come the argument goes that Hearts have better players than us because of their wages?

If that's not the case is it just because they had better managers or Vlad is a better judge of a player than any of our managers.?

Hearts are an excellent example of why they have better players than us because of the wages they offer.

Specifically, we went after Webster, Hammil, and Black - all of whom chased the wage and signed for them over us. Yesterday would have been a different game if we'd had those three in our side.

[matty_f]

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So that's it then, we are a busted flush. Carry on as we are going, dreadful performances, no entertainment, no crowds, nothing to sell and the usual list of bargain basement flotsam and jetsam turning up in January. Bring in some youngsters from big teams who can't get a game in their first team, older guys with a lengthy career in lower leagues who jump at the chance to play against the OF or pros with such lengthy injury records such that nobody else will touch them.

Depressing stuff! Why should we ****ing care anymore

There needs to be an injection of cash to get quality into the side now. The board need to recognise that the competitive budget has not been well spent and has left us well short of being competitive. If we try to bring in players on the same budget as we have been, we're not going to improve.

If that means they need to go cap in hand to STF, or the bank, or whoever, then that's what they need to do.

[Eyrie]

So let me get this straight.

Rather than invest £7m on completing the stadium and building a proper training facility, we should have handed that cash to Hughes and Calderwood to spend on players.

Gotcha

[Cropley10]

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Hearts are an excellent example of why they have better players than us because of the wages they offer.

Specifically, we went after Webster, Hammil, and Black - all of whom chased the wage and signed for them over us. Yesterday would have been a different game if we'd had those three in our side.

Sad but true. It would be fascinating to know the exact difference between both offers. Webster Black and a RB surely wouldn't have sent Hibs under?

[Andy74]

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Sad but true. It would be fascinating to know the exact difference between both offers. Webster Black and a RB surely wouldn't have sent Hibs under?

Or the manager could have signed 3 or 4 players of that quality instead of Agogo, Thornhill, Scott, Sodje, Palsson, Towell, O'Hanlon etc etc.

We were meant to be getting quality over quantity this time!

That said for those specific players Hearts would have beaten whatever we did offer I'm sure but there are good players out there if we pick more wisely.

[cad]

The safety net that is STF wants him for all that hes done good and bad its like asking yer pops for a sub when you were wee Rods a cert . .

" Rodney I thought the last time was the last time , jeeez £4 big ones , hmmmmm its either that Tommy or we buy Hearts "

[WhileTheChief..]

We all know that STF gave RP his full backing at the AGM. RP will now be under pressure to deliver or it will make STF look ridiculous after such public and total support.

I mentioned it on another thread but will STF like to be remembered as the owner who saved the club or the one that oversaw 2 relegations?

I totally believe that STF will make funds available now. Let's just hope that PF spends it better than the last few managers. The important thing is for action now and not on Jan 31.

[Kaiser1962]

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Sad but true. It would be fascinating to know the exact difference between both offers. Webster Black and a RB surely wouldn't have sent Hibs under?

If memory serves me correctly, which it sometimes dosent, I think when Black was first mentioned as a possible signing it was not greeted very favourably on here.

[matty_f]

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Sad but true. It would be fascinating to know the exact difference between both offers. Webster Black and a RB surely wouldn't have sent Hibs under?

Add Darren Barr to that list as well.

They wouldn't have sent us under and we tried to get them, as has been noted above, Webster in particular was offered very attractive and ambitious terms to sign for us - TQM, I'm sure, will confirm this. That we didn't get him (and the others) came down to the Yams offering more than we - and ultimately they - could afford. Considering that's sending the Yams under, there's a good chance matching that spend wouldn't have been the healthiest thing for the club to do...

[Bad Martini]

If Tom Farmer puts up some cash then thats great.

I hope he does but unlike many dont expect him to and never have.

The man done what he said he would do. The man isnt the problem here frankly.

The problem is the string of ***** managers petrie and co have overseen and installed, said managers buying ***** players and the use of the money we MADE....all these things combined could have given us money to buy better players.

Regardless of all this tho ,one thing is certain. If some players dont piss off and are duly replaced by better players, there is a very good chance we WILL be relegated. This, will cost us far more than shelling out now.

Fact. First division will cost us millions. Spending now will save our ass (or could) and our premier league status as well as (shock horror) maybe starting to put something remotely resembling a team together for the future?

Mental radgeness. A team on the pitch? Russian sailors? Wtf.

ENDOF

[Kaiser1962]

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So that's it then, we are a busted flush. Carry on as we are going, dreadful performances, no entertainment, no crowds, nothing to sell and the usual list of bargain basement flotsam and jetsam turning up in January. Bring in some youngsters from big teams who can't get a game in their first team, older guys with a lengthy career in lower leagues who jump at the chance to play against the OF or pros with such lengthy injury records such that nobody else will touch them.

Depressing stuff! Why should we ****ing care anymore

Nope. We keep working, we keep trying, we keep fighting and we keep hoping. Like we have always done.

[fatbloke]

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If hibs were run as a business outside football it wouldn't work, you can't have a lovely office, nice new vans, model staff and make crap toys. It won't be a success. Hibs end product right now is crap and to get the punters coming back to buy into the team and make it a success they have to make better toys.

Absolutely brilliant post. This is one of those rare occasions we all have when we look at something and say i wish i had written/said/posted that.

go to the top of the class Carnoustie.

[Andy74]

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Absolutely brilliant post. This is one of those rare occasions we all have when we look at something and say i wish i had written/said/posted that.

go to the top of the class Carnoustie.

I don't wish I had.

The post ignores the reasons for the toys being crap. That's the key discussion. If the business had provided all the tools and the cash to the management to make the toys correctly then it would be management being questioned about the use of resources. I doubt that customers or anyone else would suggest that the investment in the materials should be bumped up and handed over to the management.

You would look at the fact you are paying more for infrastructure and materials than others who's toys were better and the last thing on earth you would do would be to chuck even more money at it.

[Sunny1875]

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The fact Hanlon, sproule and Galbraith continue to get a game is a worry. Surely the younger guys are better, and if not shouldn't be playing football.

Taking 80mins to make changes when everyone seen it was needed. In Thailand they say "same same but different " and I've got a feeling that applies to fenlon.

Fenlon would be the different, the Same Same applies to the squad he has to pick from FFS let him get some of his own team on the park before we turn on him. Managers need time to implement their idea's and put their own stamp on a team. Alex Ferguson could have come in to ER and i believe we would be in the same position with the soft underbelly that currently provides the base of our poor team

[Captain Trips]

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Interview with O'Hanlon in one of the papers prior to derby in which he said that those were the sort of deals being offered everywhere these days. Unless you are Messi or Neymar I suppose.

There is no point signing anyone long term if they are not good enough. Even if they are and do sign a long term deal, i.e. Fletcher, there is no way we can hold on to them when the OF or the English come calling. If we recall some of the dross on longish contracts that we have been stuck with in the past.

There is no point signing any player for any length of time if not good enough, it seems we mention the bad signings whom have signed longer deals the truth is CC and yogi signed a hell of a lot of rubbish on short and long term.

IMO we need to build stability in the team like clubs always have done sign players you believe in that is what we must do and trust PF, if we are signing players for 6mth-12mth it is more likely we will sign players that do not work as no managers gets every signing right.

I understand we will not hold onto good players if on 3yr deal but it is better than having same player on 12mth deal and us getting no money, we have been stuck with dross in past but we have been stuck with quality also. I trust PF to sign players to come in for the long term, they are out there and have to be found, if we get in a bunch of short termers over next few weeks I believe we are going to be in trouble now and in summer.