Petrie and Farmer have ripped the heart out of Hibs

[Aubenas]

All the owner can do with any certainty is to make sure the club is financially secure - that is, that it doesn't make such big losses that its existence is in danger. Virtually every other SPL club has proved how difficult this is to achieve, but Hibs have managed it.

The success on the park bit is down to a mix of skill, luck and circumstance and the owner can't control this. It's the fortune element that makes sport unpredictable and therefore exciting. STF and Petrie have been successful in everything they have direct control over. Picking a manager is a lottery - you see the proof throughout the leagues month after month. If the chemistry works, the team gets success, if it doesn't, failure. Look at Sturrock - hero and treasure at Plymouth, joke at Southampton, Martin Jol at Tottenham, Mogga at Parkhead as opposed to Middlesbrough. Hibs have gone through a crap four or five years. It happens. Even though we are amongst the biggest spenders in the SPL, it hasn't worked. It happens. Our turn will come again - that's what all the evidence shows. In the meantime we can support the team or go and play golf and wait till we like the results better. One thing is clear. No Farmer, no security. His backing ensures the club exists. You may not like it but it's the truth of the matter, and there's nobody else willing to take us on.

[Kaiser1962]

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Do you have the accounts for the Holding Co?

I purchased a set a while ago, at the height of one of the "Farmer is a carpetbagger threads" and there was nothing to see. There was a balance of just over a £1m as cash at the bank which accrued interest and their only other sources of income were rent from the ticket office and interest on a £250k loan which has been discussed on here, and appears to have been there for a while. About £25k-£30k in total if I recall correctly. Probably paid for the paperwork fees and the pies.

Again, at the height of one of the Farmer-fests Caversham Green looked at the holding companies accounts for evidence that Farmer/Petrie were milking the FC but none was found. On the contrary, the Holding company does not trade with anyone other than the football club and the only thing that showed at the time was a £5m preference share which does not show anymore as this appears to have been transferred, initially to Maidencraig Investments but has since been transferred again to Morston. Both those companies are Farmer companies so it looks like a DFE swap (£5,760,000) if you like, long before it became hip to do so which, it was concluded, did not attract interest but may require paying when the stadium/ground/FC is sold.

[Kaiser1962]

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I know that - I'd like to see the Holding Co's latest accs and know how much cash it has.

I dont have the latest accounts but I would imagine that the £1m+ that was sitting there, gathering interest , is no longer there

[Kaiser1962]

Can I point you in the direction of this article. http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...tment_1_657866 If you would also look in the "vault" you will find a thread detailing exactly what happened to the money from the sale of teh car park, since you mentioned it.Then tell me how Farmer has gained anything from his involvement to date? And where its came from? I look forward to your response.

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“Can you please provide evidence of this as it's nowhere to be seen in either the accouts of the football club or in the accounts of HFC Holdings?” Kaiser1962 Actually Kaiser i wasn’t bring up any car park issues but you did ask about moneys leaving Hibernian Fc and were they had gone ! So i thought i would obliged you with a answer !I think you’ll find that STF has put money into Hibs but has also had his just rewards out at the same time ! Which of course was the point i was making !The problems faced at Easter road has not only happened over night and has been a combination of events over years of miss-direction by the board,Investment should of been made in the team a long time ago ! After all football is a results business P.s here is a link what i was talking about http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2008/debts.htm

[NAE NOOKIE]

Who gives a toss about the for and against arguments with regards to Petrie and Farmer.

The bottom line is that this group of players are **** and that as usual ( for 2 and a lot more years now ) they were out played by a bunch of journeymen Yams who didnt even need to have derby day attitude because just by playing average football they could easily beat us.

My partner is currently looking at me with a mixture or pity and distaine because of my reaction to todays result. I.E. I Was literally in tears when she picked me up from the pub in Gala due to once again Hibs letting me down in a derby. Aye, drink was a factor, but for F sake I'm 51 years old !!! When are my football club going to get the ****ing finger out.

So sorry ...... But as far as I'm concerned Sir Tom Farmer and his Lacky Petrie can off, because I for one am fed up of having to watch Hearts fans having a good time at Easter Road at my expense for the umpteenth time in the last 10 years.



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR GGGGGGGGG !!!!!!!!!

[nortonhibby]

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Did Farmer not say at the AGM that he wished he had a hundred RP's ?, he may live to regret that if we are relegated but then maybe he couldnae care less.

He is happy with RP Running things because the club is self sufficient therefor Farmer does not need to dip into his pocket to fund the Club.

RP Runs a very tight ship and by flogging every sellable player we have had in the last 5 years and using all the money on the stadium the training facilities and The Boards wages with minimum investment in the on field product the years of neglect have taken us to where we are now.

To revers years of neglect in a short period of time is impossible unless there is another batch of top quality youngsters to come through again.

With the financial loss last year and the money wasted by CC We have to ask the question does RP Actually have money to spend ? probably not or not much anyway.

So unless Farmer chips in with a few million this month we are Donald ducked as for the blame well im sure RP Thought he would have players to sell that were brought through when he worked out his 5 year plan unfortunatly there is not one player at the club worth a carrot.

[NAE NOOKIE]

For some reason the bad words filter removed a whole paragraph from my last post, so I am adding this just to say that I stand by every removed word regarding the current owner and his lacky .............. !!!


Anybody who doesnt agree ......... Bring it @@@@@@ on

[Eyrie]

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RP Runs a very tight ship and by flogging every sellable player we have had in the last 5 years and using all the money on the stadium the training facilities and The Boards wages with minimum investment in the on field product the years of neglect have taken us to where we are now.

That minimum investment by the board is a disgrace. They could at least have given us the fourth largest player budget in the SPL and backed successive managers in their bids to improve the squad.

[Peevemor]

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He is happy with RP Running things because the club is self sufficient therefor Farmer does not need to dip into his pocket to fund the Club.

RP Runs a very tight ship and by flogging every sellable player we have had in the last 5 years and using all the money on the stadium the training facilities and The Boards wages with minimum investment in the on field product the years of neglect have taken us to where we are now.

To revers years of neglect in a short period of time is impossible unless there is another batch of top quality youngsters to come through again.

With the financial loss last year and the money wasted by CC We have to ask the question does RP Actually have money to spend ? probably not or not much anyway.

So unless Farmer chips in with a few million this month we are Donald ducked as for the blame well im sure RP Thought he would have players to sell that were brought through when he worked out his 5 year plan unfortunatly there is not one player at the club worth a carrot.

[Halifaxhibby]

I think this is a slightly exaggerated statement to be honest, don't get me wrong i'm hurting just as much as the rest of you after witnessing that turkish delight today, we will forever be in debt to STF for being our knight in shining armour and i truly believe he has the best interests of the club at heart. He said all along he didn't want to be involved in the football side of things and has always remained as a sort of silent investor.
However, RP is one of the best paid chairman in Scotland and his immediate underlings do pretty well finincially also, RP is not and never was a footballing man, i don't doubt he is a Hibs supporter and cheers them on like the rest of us, the financial side of the club is in an excellent position, however, football is very different to other businesses, a fact RP has overlooked significantly, he sacrificed the playing side of things to build the training academy( the fruition of which is hee haw so far!! but thats another point!) finish our stadium off and keep the debt to a minimum. I have to say this is applaudable especially in todays current financial climate.
RP has though failed to realise the inextricable link between a watchable playing side and a steady profitable regular attendance. Now he's in real bother, he has taken the club as far as he can now financially, he doesn't have the ability to take us to the next level where the teams performance, regular cup runs and a top six finish(3 points i believe are not too ambitious) bring back the fans in droves. Yet again we hear outwith the old firm we are the most expensive club to watch and have something to eat or drink. Folk are sick of it now, overpriced rubbish, a team full of journeymen at best and a dreadful work ethic, not a leader among them.

I for one appreciate STF and RP's efforts up until now, but the ship is definitely sinking now. If RP has the testicular fortitude to get us out of this mess then now is the time to act before this once great sleeping giant of a football club finally has the plug pulled on it. Time for action gentlemen please!!!!!.

On a final note, even though we are utter garbage on the park at the moment, I wouldn't swap nearly 40 million worth of debt and a dump of a stadium for that crap hearts call a team!!, any jambo who is sitting delighted with the result today should take note. Your day is nearly upon you!! and i will be first in the queue to stand and laugh my plums off.

Over and out.

GGTTH!!!!

[nortonhibby]

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That minimum investment by the board is a disgrace. They could at least have given us the fourth largest player budget in the SPL and backed successive managers in their bids to improve the squad.

Out side of Celtic Rangers and the PBS Lot ( and look at the mess financially they are in ) nae other club has got a carrot to spend so your backing of RP Is a joke anyway all the money spent has been wasted and the dross on the park today is the out come

What has this big 4th best investment achieved:pfgwa ?

[ronaldo7]

Can someone prove that Hertz got their £100k in win bonuses today?

No...

Just like they dinnae ken whits goan on likesay.

[Malthibby]

Don't understand the bile about STF & RF - & I detest losing against Hearts & i detest the pain of the last 5 years, they almost certainly (okay, remove the certaainly) have made mistakes
but there is no alternative at the moment & I will not dish (that's apparently cool young stuff) the people wh saved us.
We need to hope Fenlon will bring it around & we need to give him time, we have spent far too much time ploughing through managers & players & we need to get settled. Guys like Booth
& Wotherspoon are good playes but they are running on empty, nae confidence or belief & we need to settle, on a manager & a system & keep the faith.
Let's make sure we fill Dunfermline next week & give the teaam the support they need to get the win we really really need.
GG

[ScottB]

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Out side of Celtic Rangers and the PBS Lot ( and look at the mess financially they are in ) nae other club has got a carrot to spend so your backing of RP Is a joke anyway all the money spent has been wasted and the dross on the park today is the out come

What has this big 4th best investment achieved:pfgwa ?

Wait, have we spent nothing, or have we wasted what we've spent?

To suggest we've spent nothing is total, utter nonsense. And to suggest that throwing more cash at our situation is some great and easy fix is even bigger nonsense. How much are Motherwell spending in comparison? Or St Johnstone?


As for us selling off players over the years, well come on? Does anybody think we could still have had a squad composed of Brown, Murphy, Thomson et all if we didn't have Petrie in charge? Decent players will always leave us. End of story. We should try and keep them as long as we can and get top dollar for them when they do go. I'm struggling to think of anyone we could have kept longer or gotten a better deal for when they did to be honest.


Our failing has been spending badly, no question. Not a lack of spending. But then unless you imagine that every players we've signed in the last 2 seasons was personally chosen by Rod, you can't blame him for that, only for putting his trust in a succession of managers that couldn't spot a decent player if they kicked them across the face.

[nortonhibby]

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Wait, have we spent nothing, or have we wasted what we've spent?

To suggest we've spent nothing is total, utter nonsense. And to suggest that throwing more cash at our situation is some great and easy fix is even bigger nonsense. How much are Motherwell spending in comparison? Or St Johnstone?


As for us selling off players over the years, well come on? Does anybody think we could still have had a squad composed of Brown, Murphy, Thomson et all if we didn't have Petrie in charge? Decent players will always leave us. End of story. We should try and keep them as long as we can and get top dollar for them when they do go. I'm struggling to think of anyone we could have kept longer or gotten a better deal for when they did to be honest.


Our failing has been spending badly, no question. Not a lack of spending. But then unless you imagine that every players we've signed in the last 2 seasons was personally chosen by Rod, you can't blame him for that, only for putting his trust in a succession of managers that couldn't spot a decent player if they kicked them across the face.

Fair point and good post but who chose the managers to waste the money and do we have 1 player that is a sellable asset.

sorry im both angry and severely p ----d off right now. what a mess we are in.

[ScottB]

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Fair point and good post but who chose the managers to waste the money and do we have 1 player that is a sellable asset.

sorry im both angry and severely p ----d off right now. what a mess we are in.

Oh indeed, the picking of managers is what you can blame Petrie for, to my mind he has backed them to bring in players, just for the most part, those players have bombed...

[Eyrie]

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Fair point and good post but who chose the managers to waste the money and do we have 1 player that is a sellable asset.

sorry im both angry and severely p ----d off right now. what a mess we are in.

Now all of that I can agree with.

For what it's worth (which is the square root of sod all) I have faith that we finally have a decent manager in place.

[Kaiser1962]

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He is happy with RP Running things because the club is self sufficient therefor Farmer does not need to dip into his pocket to fund the Club.

This is nonsense.

[Caversham Green]

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I purchased a set a while ago, at the height of one of the "Farmer is a carpetbagger threads" and there was nothing to see. There was a balance of just over a £1m as cash at the bank which accrued interest and their only other sources of income were rent from the ticket office and interest on a £250k loan which has been discussed on here, and appears to have been there for a while. About £25k-£30k in total if I recall correctly. Probably paid for the paperwork fees and the pies.

Again, at the height of one of the Farmer-fests Caversham Green looked at the holding companies accounts for evidence that Farmer/Petrie were milking the FC but none was found. On the contrary, the Holding company does not trade with anyone other than the football club and the only thing that showed at the time was a £5m preference share which does not show anymore as this appears to have been transferred, initially to Maidencraig Investments but has since been transferred again to Morston. Both those companies are Farmer companies so it looks like a DFE swap (£5,760,000) if you like, long before it became hip to do so which, it was concluded, did not attract interest but may require paying when the stadium/ground/FC is sold.

To clarify the second paragraph here, the £5.76m was a loan to the club from the holding company that was written off following the sale of the car park. It's a different issue from the £5m preference shares which were initially an investment by Morston Securities Ltd which is a Farmer company, but not included in the Hibernian group. As part of a group reconstruction Morston sold these shares into the Hibernian group in 2009 for £1 - effectively writing off the liability.

The last HFC Holdings accounts I have are 2009 - these show a profit of £11k, cash in hand of £1.83m and accummulated losses of £1.9m. The 2011 accounts haven't been filed yet, but I'll get a copy when they are available. CBA getting the 2010 ones.

[IWasThere2016]

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To clarify the second paragraph here, the £5.76m was a loan to the club from the holding company that was written off following the sale of the car park. It's a different issue from the £5m preference shares which were initially an investment by Morston Securities Ltd which is a Farmer company, but not included in the Hibernian group. As part of a group reconstruction Morston sold these shares into the Hibernian group in 2009 for £1 - effectively writing off the liability.

The last HFC Holdings accounts I have are 2009 - these show a profit of £11k, cash in hand of £1.83m and accummulated losses of £1.9m. The 2011 accounts haven't been filed yet, but I'll get a copy when they are available. CBA getting the 2010 ones.

Cheers C. It will be interesting to see when (eg exact date) of the most recent loan to Hibs was made

[Lucius Apuleius]

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All the owner can do with any certainty is to make sure the club is financially secure - that is, that it doesn't make such big losses that its existence is in danger. Virtually every other SPL club has proved how difficult this is to achieve, but Hibs have managed it.

The success on the park bit is down to a mix of skill, luck and circumstance and the owner can't control this. It's the fortune element that makes sport unpredictable and therefore exciting. STF and Petrie have been successful in everything they have direct control over. Picking a manager is a lottery - you see the proof throughout the leagues month after month. If the chemistry works, the team gets success, if it doesn't, failure. Look at Sturrock - hero and treasure at Plymouth, joke at Southampton, Martin Jol at Tottenham, Mogga at Parkhead as opposed to Middlesbrough. Hibs have gone through a crap four or five years. It happens. Even though we are amongst the biggest spenders in the SPL, it hasn't worked. It happens. Our turn will come again - that's what all the evidence shows. In the meantime we can support the team or go and play golf and wait till we like the results better. One thing is clear. No Farmer, no security. His backing ensures the club exists. You may not like it but it's the truth of the matter, and there's nobody else willing to take us on.

Far too sensible mate. Unfortunately does not agree with the conspiracy theorists and the let's throw a few million at the problem brigade. I have great faith that things will turn around. Getting the infrastructure in place was in my opinion 100% the correct thing to do. The money could then be spent on the team. Unfortunately a combination of circumstances, global financial situation, bad management, bad buys, have led us to where we are. RP is never going to be popular with a large percentage of the support. There will also always be a large contingent calling on STF to invest or leave. Why the help should he throw money down a drain? Football teams do not make money. The best you can hope for is to live within our means. We have not achieved that in the last couple of years iirc. Going deeper in debt is not the answer.

GGTTH.

[Kaiser1962]

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To clarify the second paragraph here, the £5.76m was a loan to the club from the holding company that was written off following the sale of the car park. It's a different issue from the £5m preference shares which were initially an investment by Morston Securities Ltd which is a Farmer company, but not included in the Hibernian group. As part of a group reconstruction Morston sold these shares into the Hibernian group in 2009 for £1 - effectively writing off the liability.

The last HFC Holdings accounts I have are 2009 - these show a profit of £11k, cash in hand of £1.83m and accummulated losses of £1.9m. The 2011 accounts haven't been filed yet, but I'll get a copy when they are available. CBA getting the 2010 ones.

Thanks for that C and apologies for not keeping up.

[Caversham Green]

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Cheers C. It will be interesting to see when (eg exact date) of the most recent loan to Hibs was made

I'm afraid we won't get that - it'll just be the opposite entry from the one in the club's accounts. My guess is that it was advanced for part of the cost of the East Stand.

Strictly speaking, it's not a loan in that it's described as an 'amount due to parent company' and isn't included in the net debt figure and doesn't bear interest.

[Steve-O]

I'd like to know exactly how much more we pay than the other teams. There is no way it can be a significant amount so its pointless banging on about it IMO.

[Caversham Green]

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I'd like to know exactly how much more we pay than the other teams. There is no way it can be a significant amount so its pointless banging on about it IMO.

Roughly the same as Aberdeen - it varies year on year as to who pays the most, about £1m more than the Arabs, £1.2m more than Well and the same or more for the rest. It's difficult to say with Killie as they include hotel staff in their wages figure, but their total wages figure is a bit less that ours.

[BEEJ]

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The success on the park bit is down to a mix of skill, luck and circumstance and the owner can't control this.

It's the fortune element that makes sport unpredictable and therefore exciting. STF and Petrie have been successful in everything they have direct control over. Picking a manager is a lottery - you see the proof throughout the leagues month after month. If the chemistry works, the team gets success, if it doesn't, failure. Look at Sturrock - hero and treasure at Plymouth, joke at Southampton, Martin Jol at Tottenham, Mogga at Parkhead as opposed to Middlesbrough.

Hibs have gone through a crap four or five years. It happens. Even though we are amongst the biggest spenders in the SPL, it hasn't worked. It happens. Our turn will come again - that's what all the evidence shows.

A valid point but a bit overstated. If that much of Manager and hence player selection is down to fortune and Hibs are therefore just on a seemingly interminable run of bad luck, what do we need all our Directors for? You make football manager recruitment sound like a glorified lottery.

Luck clearly plays a part, but much less so than you make out. If I'm wrong and you're right then there are hundreds of candidates for SL's job on here who will tackle his job for a fraction of his salary.

[IWasThere2016]

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I'm afraid we won't get that - it'll just be the opposite entry from the one in the club's accounts. My guess is that it was advanced for part of the cost of the East Stand.

Strictly speaking, it's not a loan in that it's described as an 'amount due to parent company' and isn't included in the net debt figure and doesn't bear interest.

Sure - personally I'd disclose the date.

[KiddA]

Thanks for ruining my weekend again Hibs. Just managed to #### my laptop up after they scored the second goal.

When is this hellish nightmare going to end

I know there is more important things in life and Hibs dont pay my bills but they are very hard to watch right now.

Again the club needs change from top to bottom but there will be no change.

[--------]

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Can we stop this utter nonsense of us paying peanuts please?

We have spent badly, no question, but we've probably spent too much as it is.

This is true. It's not that the people at the top of the club are mean.

They spend money.

It's just that in terms of running a football club and putting a decent team on the park the money they spend doesn't seem to be spent effectively.

IN fact, to me they appear to be incompetent. (I wouldn't let either Farmer or Petrie do my weekly shopping at the supermarket - I'd starve to bloody death.)

Or maybe they don't actually care.

One or the other. Maybe both. I'm reaching the place where I DON'T FREAKIN CARE. They need to either wise up or get lost.

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Thanks for ruining my weekend again Hibs. Just managed to #### my laptop up after they scored the second goal.

When is this hellish nightmare going to end

I know there is more important things in life and Hibs dont pay my bills but they are very hard to watch right now.

Again the club needs change from top to bottom but there will be no change.

The state of Hibs right now is as if Tesco built a brand-new state of the art supermarket and then stocked it with goods that were all past their sell-by date. The infrastructure's great. The product stinks, and has done so for a very long time now.

Farmer is the owner. He put in Petrie. He thinks Petrie is the Very Best Football Club Chairman That Ever Was. Which is bull****. Petrie isn't a football man - he's a bean-counter. Farmer is happy with him being a bean-counter, because Farmer's view of things sees counting beans as very, very important - more important than winning football matches. Petrie's making a mockery of the Hibs team - OH YES, we have a new stadium, but we can't buy a win there against anybody in the SPL; and a state-of-the-art training-ground that seems to be doing us no good at all.

BIG FURRY DEAL. I no longer care how much STF did for us 20 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, he's doing for us now - him and his incomparably brilliant side-kick Rod Petrie. I don't care how tidy the accounts look, or whether the sums add up. Hibs are about football - and in the end of the day ONLY the football counts.

Which bit of THAT is so hard for our White Knight and his Sancho Panza to understand?

As things stand tonight, we're favourites to go down in May. Last time that happened, the chairman, CEO whatever he called himself, walked. That was Lex Gold. Any chance of Petrie accepting the responsibility and walking this time around? Any chance of Farmer finally waking up and realising that it doesn't really matter what the stadium looks like, or what the facilities are like behind the scenes. Personally, I'm not holding my breath.

All that matters is what happens ON THE PITCH on match-days. STF and RP and the rest of the board need to get THAT into their skulls now, before it's too late. Otherwise it'll be Easter Road they're building flats on, not Tynie.