Building since 2007, whats happened?

[Captain Trips]

Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

[matty_f]

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Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.

[Dashing Bob S]

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One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.

I think he's passed the short-term and he most emphatically hasn't got it right.

[Captain Trips]

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One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.

I see what you are saying but again we are looking at hopefully he will get it right, IMO it is passed that point, I do not see why or how we can take a chance with the current board any longer there is a massive turnaround of squad with these deals and thats the last 2 managers whom are operating this way, are they being told this is what needs done? either way it imo is destined to fail stability on the park is a long way off as come summer we are looking at more key players out of contract.

[matty_f]

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I think he's passed the short-term and he most emphatically hasn't got it right.

I'm talking about the immediate future, Bob.

He hasn't had the luxury of having the players brought in to improve the club being available for selection until now. For me, the time to seriously dissect what Calderwood brings to the table is now.

We cannot see the changes that are happening in the background at Hibs, of which there are many. Calderwood has talked about rebuilding the club, root and branch. The board seem keen on this idea as well and have re-structured their own roles and responsibilities along with other roles throughout the club.

A wholesale change to the culture and set up of any organisation takes time to take shape, what CC must understand (and what Scott Lindsay has alluded to in his interview) is that no matter how significant the changes in the background are, the foundations have been laid and CC is very much expected to deliver results now while that rebuilding goes on. It is not a case where everyone can turn a blind eye to the pish we've watched while things get laid down to give us a top 6 team in a couple of years. We were a top 6 team the season before last. Calderwood is expected to do better than stand still with this team. He is expected to improve us.

I would be comfortable arguing a case that given the mess he inherited (and it was, by all accounts, a mess) that the time leading up to now has very much been the short term, but the closing of the transfer window and the conclusion of our business in it, is a very significant signal of that period ending.

[Captain Trips]

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I'm talking about the immediate future, Bob.

He hasn't had the luxury of having the players brought in to improve the club being available for selection until now. For me, the time to seriously dissect what Calderwood brings to the table is now.

We cannot see the changes that are happening in the background at Hibs, of which there are many. Calderwood has talked about rebuilding the club, root and branch. The board seem keen on this idea as well and have re-structured their own roles and responsibilities along with other roles throughout the club.

A wholesale change to the culture and set up of any organisation takes time to take shape, what CC must understand (and what Scott Lindsay has alluded to in his interview) is that no matter how significant the changes in the background are, the foundations have been laid and CC is very much expected to deliver results now while that rebuilding goes on. It is not a case where everyone can turn a blind eye to the pish we've watched while things get laid down to give us a top 6 team in a couple of years. We were a top 6 team the season before last. Calderwood is expected to do better than stand still with this team. He is expected to improve us.

I would be comfortable arguing a case that given the mess he inherited (and it was, by all accounts, a mess) that the time leading up to now has very much been the short term, but the closing of the transfer window and the conclusion of our business in it, is a very significant signal of that period ending.

That is my point a mess sanctioned by this regime a mess we are still recovering from many think and I am included that a new mess is now in making. They have overseen to many errors lots of clubs get over a bad manager a hell of a lot quicker than this. In 8mths we are going to probably rebuilding another team it is way past the time to be sorted, I do not see the good in a new team year on year.

[matty_f]

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I see what you are saying but again we are looking at hopefully he will get it right, IMO it is passed that point, I do not see why or how we can take a chance with the current board any longer there is a massive turnaround of squad with these deals and thats the last 2 managers whom are operating this way, are they being told this is what needs done? either way it imo is destined to fail stability on the park is a long way off as come summer we are looking at more key players out of contract.

As alluded to in my post above, the issues stem (IMHO) from some very, very poor player acquisition decisions during Collins' reign that hindered the club's progress for some time to come. Both Mixu and Yogi had Collins' signings at the club that they needed to move on, all of whom were a drain on the available resources to the respective managers in terms on what they had to spend on the team.

I think CC has brought some players in on longer contracts and others that he sees as medium term fixes while he identifies more suitable players to fill the roles. I fully expect to see some of the players on the one year deals being offered extensions to their contracts if and when they prove their worth to the first team, and I think CC will over time have a nucleus of players that he builds the team around.

The time to panic is not now, although it may appear to be. We panicked (IMHO) with Mixu, and with Yogi, and so the rebuilding process has never really passed a fairly embryonic stage. That in itself is an issue - we cannot always be in transition, we cannot forever be starting to rebuild. We need to see it through and that might mean putting up with some harder times while we get there. All we have is hope that the worst times are behind us and that CC has brought in players good enough, and that he himself is good enough, to take us onto better times now.

[matty_f]

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That is my point a mess sanctioned by this regime a mess we are still recovering from many think and I am included that a new mess is now in making. They have overseen to many errors lots of clubs get over a bad manager a hell of a lot quicker than this. In 8mths we are going to probably rebuilding another team it is way past the time to be sorted, I do not see the good in a new team year on year.

I don't see that the board did a helluva lot wrong. Any appointment that any football club makes with a manager is a risk. You look at clubs that have hired the very best and spent the most, and they under-achieve.

I can see that things have not worked as everyone would have liked, especially the Board and the fans, but really you look at the key strategic decisions (like the stand and the training centre) that the board have made, ones with definite and guaranteed outcomes, and they've done well for the long term future of the club.

Where they haven't done so well is when they've spent on things with an uncertain outcome. Players (out of the board's hands, IMHO - they rely on the football people - the scouts, managers, and coaches to identify the players, they just facilitate the signings, and that's exactly how it should be.), and managers have been hit and miss.

Let's not forget that since Mowbray things have not been without the positives - the board have overseen a cup win and European qualification in the years since then, as well as consecutive top 6 finishes up until last season, and this done in the context of keeping the club's head above water in very tough economic times and growing the club. So it's not all bad, though many would like to paint it so.

[Captain Trips]

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As alluded to in my post above, the issues stem (IMHO) from some very, very poor player acquisition decisions during Collins' reign that hindered the club's progress for some time to come. Both Mixu and Yogi had Collins' signings at the club that they needed to move on, all of whom were a drain on the available resources to the respective managers in terms on what they had to spend on the team.

I think CC has brought some players in on longer contracts and others that he sees as medium term fixes while he identifies more suitable players to fill the roles. I fully expect to see some of the players on the one year deals being offered extensions to their contracts if and when they prove their worth to the first team, and I think CC will over time have a nucleus of players that he builds the team around.

The time to panic is not now, although it may appear to be. We panicked (IMHO) with Mixu, and with Yogi, and so the rebuilding process has never really passed a fairly embryonic stage. That in itself is an issue - we cannot always be in transition, we cannot forever be starting to rebuild. We need to see it through and that might mean putting up with some harder times while we get there. All we have is hope that the worst times are behind us and that CC has brought in players good enough, and that he himself is good enough, to take us onto better times now.

I will have to disagree with you Matty, I cannot see that the bad signings JC made could cause so much problems for the next 2 managers, JC will have had players that Mowbray left, Mixu had to deal with players JC left, Yogi had to deal with players Mixu had left all part of the normal process and I do not think that the players JC left have put us in a position we are now, not by any stretch of my imagination anyway. Mixu and Yogi idependantly bought rubbish in and then started this loans and 1yr stuff. Sorry Matty but although JC had some crap players that is no way an excuse for todays situation, no excuse or reason at all.

[matty_f]

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I will have to disagree with you Matty, I cannot see that the bad signings JC made could cause so much problems for the next 2 managers, JC will have had players that Mowbray left, Mixu had to deal with players JC left, Yogi had to deal with players Mixu had left all part of the normal process and I do not think that the players JC left have put us in a position we are now, not by any stretch of my imagination anyway. Mixu and Yogi idependantly bought rubbish in and then started this loans and 1yr stuff. Sorry Matty but although JC had somr crap players that is no way an excuse for todays situation, no excuse or reason at all.

I disagree. It comes down to maths - Collins brought in players that cost x amount over y number of years. Where y was a number greater than the tenure of Collins, then x impacted the budget of Mixu. Where y was a number greater than Collins and Mixu's tenure, then x impacted on Mixu's budget as well.

The difference between Mowbray inheriting bad players and Mixu inheriting bad players is in the volume of players involved, and their respective abilities to either improve the players, or find better ones within our budget. Mowbray was excellent at it, but the same couldn't be said for Mixu and Yogi.

We are now at the point where it can't be used as an excuse for Calderwood, though, as he's rebuilt the squad. I would reckon that the only player that he still has on the books that he'd probably rather not have, is Hart. One player, though, isn't that big a deal. When it's upwards of 4 or 5, then it has a significant impact.

[Captain Trips]

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I disagree. It comes down to maths - Collins brought in players that cost x amount over y number of years. Where y was a number greater than the tenure of Collins, then x impacted the budget of Mixu. Where y was a number greater than Collins and Mixu's tenure, then x impacted on Mixu's budget as well.

The difference between Mowbray inheriting bad players and Mixu inheriting bad players is in the volume of players involved, and their respective abilities to either improve the players, or find better ones within our budget. Mowbray was excellent at it, but the same couldn't be said for Mixu and Yogi.

We are now at the point where it can't be used as an excuse for Calderwood, though, as he's rebuilt the squad. I would reckon that the only player that he still has on the books that he'd probably rather not have, is Hart. One player, though, isn't that big a deal. When it's upwards of 4 or 5, then it has a significant impact.

I think you are overstating the amount of damage JC bad signings cost us and you think I will be understating, I just cannot see it at all Matty. Things cannot have been that bad if Mixu had the room to bring in Riordan. IMO this has nothing to do with JC he made bad signings like every manager.

[muzzhfc]

JC signed no one of note to replace the players that were sold. if we brought up a list of players who he signed, then most of them would have "pish" next to their name by one person or another.
Mixu was similar, except Murray and Deeks, however, they werent his signings as they already played for the club and we knew what they were about, he just had the stones to go out and try and sign them. and it worked. kind of.
Hughes signed some decent players, Stokes, Miller, Stack, Brown but signed some awful ones too.
CC has signed some decent players, but some of them have been injured, we have also had some youngsters who have been out of form for various reasons. We had a difficult start to the season, Celtic, ITC (yes we won), the Yams and a couple of bogey teams (mainly st mirren), but with CCs players now coming into fitness we need to relax a bit, get behind the team and support them. I think CC has an eye for player and could do well. if we give him the time. I think one of our main problems for the constant rebuilding is the constant manager changes

[matty_f]

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I think you are overstating the amount of damage JC bad signings cost us and you think I will be understating, I just cannot see it at all Matty. Things cannot have been that bad if Mixu had the room to bring in Riordan. IMO this has nothing to do with JC he made bad signings like every manager.

Mixu's signing of Riordan is exactly why the problem was as big as it was, though. Signing Riordan meant that he had a marquee signing and a player that the fans knew and (sort of!) loved. He was also a good player but he wasn't cheap. That meant that the budget didn't extend to getting good midfielders in, and so we signed players like Joe Keenan. Had Collins left a good squad then Riordan's signing would have had a far greater impact. That budget would have still been there, but rather than being a gem amongst pish, he'd have been coming in to supplement an already good squad.

Instead Mixu ended up with a squad of a few good players surrounded by journeymen and untested players who simply weren't good enough, hence why none of them remain at the club.

You take that into Yogi's tenure, and he had the same issue - getting rid of dross, and he again tried to bring a couple of quality players and a few run of the mill players to make a team, but because the overall quality of the team wasn't there to begin with it soon went to bits.

Calderwood is the first manager in years to have been able to practically wipe the slate clean and start again. His signings will define his time here as much as the pre-season nonsense because they will be the legacy that he leaves.

I think the fact that we have so many one year deals is a direct result of a feeling of money being poorly spent by Collins and his successors having a much further reaching impact than that which could be corrected in a transfer window.

[Captain Trips]

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Mixu's signing of Riordan is exactly why the problem was as big as it was, though. Signing Riordan meant that he had a marquee signing and a player that the fans knew and (sort of!) loved. He was also a good player but he wasn't cheap. That meant that the budget didn't extend to getting good midfielders in, and so we signed players like Joe Keenan. Had Collins left a good squad then Riordan's signing would have had a far greater impact. That budget would have still been there, but rather than being a gem amongst pish, he'd have been coming in to supplement an already good squad.

Instead Mixu ended up with a squad of a few good players surrounded by journeymen and untested players who simply weren't good enough, hence why none of them remain at the club.

You take that into Yogi's tenure, and he had the same issue - getting rid of dross, and he again tried to bring a couple of quality players and a few run of the mill players to make a team, but because the overall quality of the team wasn't there to begin with it soon went to bits.

Calderwood is the first manager in years to have been able to practically wipe the slate clean and start again. His signings will define his time here as much as the pre-season nonsense because they will be the legacy that he leaves.

I think the fact that we have so many one year deals is a direct result of a feeling of money being poorly spent by Collins and his successors having a much further reaching impact than that which could be corrected in a transfer window.

Well that is the fault of Mixu and board then if they made that decsion is it not? at the end of the day Mixu had better tools to do job than most managers in SPL, Yogi followed suit with Liam Miller and Stokes to show that there was more than enough to do well in SPL, if Mixu had not signed Riordan then Yogi would have had more money also. I cannot blame JC for our mess now, yes he played a part but the following managers had enough going forward to stabilise higher league places. CC has now brought in some players and some of them look ok but some look not so good the same as the last 2 managers.

The failings are due to bad mamagement choices and the way we are bringing in players for short term who have got to 100% hit ground running and many are not. CC has a very poor record thus far and I cannot see how he is in the process any more of wiping the slate clean than Yogi was.

Mixu directly after JC had the strength to buy Riordan, Murray, pay for John Rankin and Colin Nish, so to me showing there was plenty in locker, yes if JC had not bought bad players then Mixu would have had more but he appears to have had more than enough. But I can say if Mowbray hadnt had left his crap players such as Zibi then JC might have had more, and if Bobby Williamson had left crap and if Alex Miller hadnt left crap etc etc Every manager leaves bad decisions behind, Yogi had to fix Mixu's, CC has to fix Yogi's.

Mixu had to fix JC's bad signings but I think was given the tools to do that, Yogi then had to fix Mixu's stuff again going on the calibur of some signings he had the tools, again now we have Garry Oconnor showing there are indeed things available. The only thing consistant over last 5yrs is the board, that is the problem not Alan obrein and Maka.

[hibs0666]

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My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.

[matty_f]

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Well that is the fault of Mixu and board then if they made that decsion is it not? at the end of the day Mixu had better tools to do job than most managers in SPL, Yogi followed suit with Liam Miller and Stokes to show that there was more than enough to do well in SPL, if Mixu had not signed Riordan then Yogi would have had more money also. I cannot blame JC for our mess now, yes he played a part but the following managers had enough going forward to stabilise higher league places. CC has now brought in some players and some of them look ok but some look not so good the same as the last 2 managers.

The failings are due to bad mamagement choices and the way we are bringing in players for short term who have got to 100% hit ground running and many are not. CC has a very poor record thus far and I cannot see how he is in the process any more of wiping the slate clean than Yogi was.

The other managers did stabilise higher league placings. When JC left I think we then went on a run that took us down to about 8th IIRC, Mixu got us top 6 that season and again the season after. Yogi got us 4th place in his only full season with us.

Mixu wanted Riordan and knew we could get him, and the board were keen to back him. He knew what the consequences of spending a sizable part of his budget on one or two players were, he no doubt thought that he'd be able to unearth a few players from what was available on the remaining budget. I think he was wrong. Maybe if he'd been given longer (or took longer, as he resigned IIRC) he would have been able to work through the team and build it back up bit by bit.

If you can't see that CC has had a bigger opportunity to clear the squad and start again than Yogi or Mixu had then you're trying not to see it, IMHO.

CC was able to clear out in the region of 15-20 players since coming in, without having to take a huge budgetary hit in paying them off because of a decision taken by Yogi and the board to allow natural attrition of players at the end of last season.

He's also been able to sign 14 players since the January window opened.

I can't deny that CC's record has been poor. It is poor - very poor. However, Albion Hibs pointed out in another thread that folk were calling for the manager to play under 19's ahead of some of the players that CC inherited, such was the perception of their level of terribleness! CC worked with that group of players, brought in players that did enough to secure our SPL status which was very much in doubt at one point, and he's cleared most of the rest out now.

The time to judge CC really comes from Sunday on, IMHO. He's had the clean slate, and he's had a year to sort out whatever cultural issues may have existed and to stamp his own mark on the club. Now that the players he wanted are at the club, are fit and able to play, he has nothing to hide behind and has to start producing performances and results worthy of a club of our standing.

[Captain Trips]

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There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.

He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

[matty_f]

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He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

The new regime are tackling things that will not come to fruition overnight, though. The changes are still very recent and strategically I'd be very surprised if the club are at the advanced stages of many, if any of the projects and changes that they will undertake to try and improve the club.

It's massively short-sighted to say that they're not doing very well. Nobody is suggesting that everything is rosy, we're bottom of the league and deservedly so after the points total we've picked up so far, however as mentioned above that's just one aspect of the board's remit, and even the manager whose main responsibility is to have us competing at the other end of the table, only just now has his team available to him after rebuilding what was a shambolic team left to him.

The board have gone about what they needed to do in terms of infrastructure. Like most of us, they're probably sick of talking about it now and want to see that work bear fruit now. That's why they've changed the structure and duties, you have to give time for that change to take effect though.

[hibs0666]

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He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

You're not getting it - RP is no longer running the club on a day-day basis! I do not see your point in having a go at a new management regime that have been in place for no time at all.

[Captain Trips]

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The other managers did stabilise higher league placings. When JC left I think we then went on a run that took us down to about 8th IIRC, Mixu got us top 6 that season and again the season after. Yogi got us 4th place in his only full season with us.

Mixu wanted Riordan and knew we could get him, and the board were keen to back him. He knew what the consequences of spending a sizable part of his budget on one or two players were, he no doubt thought that he'd be able to unearth a few players from what was available on the remaining budget. I think he was wrong. Maybe if he'd been given longer (or took longer, as he resigned IIRC) he would have been able to work through the team and build it back up bit by bit.

If you can't see that CC has had a bigger opportunity to clear the squad and start again than Yogi or Mixu had then you're trying not to see it, IMHO.

CC was able to clear out in the region of 15-20 players since coming in, without having to take a huge budgetary hit in paying them off because of a decision taken by Yogi and the board to allow natural attrition of players at the end of last season.

He's also been able to sign 14 players since the January window opened.

I can't deny that CC's record has been poor. It is poor - very poor. However, Albion Hibs pointed out in another thread that folk were calling for the manager to play under 19's ahead of some of the players that CC inherited, such was the perception of their level of terribleness! CC worked with that group of players, brought in players that did enough to secure our SPL status which was very much in doubt at one point, and he's cleared most of the rest out now.

The time to judge CC really comes from Sunday on, IMHO. He's had the clean slate, and he's had a year to sort out whatever cultural issues may have existed and to stamp his own mark on the club. Now that the players he wanted are at the club, are fit and able to play, he has nothing to hide behind and has to start producing performances and results worthy of a club of our standing.

That natural attrition was only acceptable due to the dross that was on way out however we lost 1 or 2 players whom are better than what we have now and the jury is out if the replacements are better. Yogi signed all his players assuming they would work so to have been in a position that the board allowed to have tthe potential to be losing 10+ players whom where playing well was also folly.

Ok it turns out most where no great loss, but if good we would have been kicking ourselves if we couldnt keep them, I assume CC thinks his 1yr deals will be good players so the club have allowed again a manger to have a large part of the squad with the ability to walk, not a good idea IMO.

[Captain Trips]

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You're not getting it - RP is no longer running the club on a day-day basis! I do not see your point in having a go at a new management regime that have been in place for no time at all.

I think I do get it, who appointed them? So what does RP do then at Hibs? if he does anything he is open to critisism if I see fit, he appointed last 3 managers and if he was involved in the current board positions then I do not think he should be involved in such decsions as he IMO has failed the football side of things.

[matty_f]

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That natural attrition was only acceptable due to the dross that was on way out however we lost 1 or 2 players whom are better than what we have now and the jury is out if the replacements are better. Yogi signed all his players assuming they would work so to have been in a position that the board allowed to have tthe potential to be losing 10+ players whom where playing well was also folly.

Ok it turns out most where no great loss, but if good we would have been kicking ourselves if we couldnt keep them, I assume CC thinks his 1yr deals will be good players so the club have allowed again a manger to have a large part of the squad with the ability to walk, not a good idea IMO.

If the players had been, in CC's opinion, worth keeping then we'd have bent over backwards to keep them. Neither Riordan or Miller (I'm struggling to think who else might come into the bracket of better than what has come into the club) were players that were signed on 1 year deals, both were offered terms in line with what CC valued them and in line with our budget and they chose other options. Fair play to them, that's their prerogative.

Yogi talked about players having to earn new contracts through performing and I am certain that he saw that as a carrot to encourage some to play better than they were, and I think he would have offered contracts to some of those players should he have felt they earned them, again that's fair enough.

He also identified that there were players there not adding value to the club and did not offer new terms to them, knowing fine well they'd be away in the summer.

Calderwood, I think, has taken a similar approach. Some of the players that he knew about before coming to the club have been given longer deals - O'Hanlon, Palsson, Sproule, Thornhill, Sodje (IIRC). Others have to prove their worth - Stack, Galbraith, Stevenson etc, and others will have come on the proviso of it being a one year deal as they think they are capable of playing at a higher level - O'Connor, for example.

All fair enough. I think that if Galbraith does enough between now and the end of the year, he'll sign a new contract, probably on better terms than he's getting just now. Same with Stevenson. And if they're not doing it, then this season will rightly be their last with the club and they walk away with a handshake and our best wishes.

I don't see a huge problem there, so long as the club are on the button when it comes to offering better terms.

[down the slope]

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There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.

This is from Wiki
"Petrie resigned from his position as chief executive in April 2008 and was replaced by Scott Lindsay,^[23] but has retained his position as chairman. Petrie stated that Lindsay would take over the "day-to-day running of the club", while Petrie would retain control of "executive duties", including the negotiation of player contracts and setting the player budget.^[24] Hibs have continued to break even since then, although this has been due to the sale of players offsetting trading "

If he has nowt to do with the running of the club then why did he issue the statement about Calderwood ?.

[matty_f]

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I think I do get it, who appointed them? So what does RP do then at Hibs? if he does anything he is open to critisism if I see fit, he appointed last 3 managers and if he was involved in the current board positions then I do not think he should be involved in such decsions as he IMO has failed the football side of things.

Has he, though?

We had a bad season last season, no question. Big black mark on everyone there, and no arguments about it from me.
Season before - 4th place finish. If we're considering that a failure now then we're a bit mental.
Season before that - top 6, not a success as such, but not a failure either, IMHO.
Season before that - top 6, see above
Season before that - top 6 and a cup win. Success.

Now, I'm quite likely to have missed a season out there along the way as I'm a bit hard of thinking at times, however all of that has been achieved against a backdrop of keeping the club financially stable, building an excellent training facility, producing youth players for the first team, and completing the stadium.

I'm sure some people will look at that as failure, but I think if they were really honest with themselves they'd see that the above marks a fairly significant achievement which is being overshadowed by a bad season and a bad start to this season.

[matty_f]

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This is from Wiki
"Petrie resigned from his position as chief executive in April 2008 and was replaced by Scott Lindsay,^[23] but has retained his position as chairman. Petrie stated that Lindsay would take over the "day-to-day running of the club", while Petrie would retain control of "executive duties", including the negotiation of player contracts and setting the player budget.^[24] Hibs have continued to break even since then, although this has been due to the sale of players offsetting trading "

If he has nowt to do with the running of the club then why did he issue the statement about Calderwood ?.

Fans were calling for the chairman to show leadership, and I would have thought such a statement very much came under the remit of "executive duties".

[Captain Trips]

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Has he, though?

We had a bad season last season, no question. Big black mark on everyone there, and no arguments about it from me.
Season before - 4th place finish. If we're considering that a failure now then we're a bit mental.
Season before that - top 6, not a success as such, but not a failure either, IMHO.
Season before that - top 6, see above
Season before that - top 6 and a cup win. Success.

Now, I'm quite likely to have missed a season out there along the way as I'm a bit hard of thinking at times, however all of that has been achieved against a backdrop of keeping the club financially stable, building an excellent training facility, producing youth players for the first team, and completing the stadium.

I'm sure some people will look at that as failure, but I think if they were really honest with themselves they'd see that the above marks a fairly significant achievement which is being overshadowed by a bad season and a bad start to this season.

I think that is where we differ, top 6 is not a target or a marker IMO, 4th is, below 4th is failure.

[Kaiser1962]

I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.

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Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

[Saorsa]

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I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.

As long as he has his 10% I dinnae think his seat will be that far back nae matter who has what title within the board room.





If he's doing less is he taking less?

[Captain Trips]

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I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.

I think it is dissimilar, somebody a few weeks ago said Dundee Utd was same, Dundee Utd had far more players there long term than we do/did. Palsson is ok, not good enough IMO to be dictating contract lengths, I would rather we went for more longer term players although Palsson was 18mths I think which is better.

[matty_f]

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I think that is where we differ, top 6 is not a target or a marker IMO, 4th is, below 4th is failure.

I think if you look at the circumstances in which the top 6 finishes were achieved then you can see that there is a measure of success there.

I don't think it's as black and white as saying 4th is success, 5th or 6th is failure - there is an inbetween and that's what I was saying in my post listing what we'd done over the seasons. I would not class top 6 as a success, but nor is it failure.