aberdeen's new stadium

[Kojock]

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I hope they fail and suffer a horrible death

Yep lets hope Aberdeen and the Hertz go bust and the OF go down south. With nobody left to play we might even win the Scottish Cup.

[heretoday]

Donald Trump should fund it.

Seriously, anything would be better than the bleak windswept place that is Pittodrie.

[iwasthere1972]

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Anyone who thinks that either Pittodrie or Caley Stadium is the coldest ground in Scotland clearly has'nt been to Arbroath on a windy winters day, with the wind lashing the spray from the sea over the enclosure, Aberdeen and Inverness are bloody tropical compared to Gayfield !!

Absolute murder. iwasthere1972 and it was freezing. Made worse by the constant sea spray. Arbroath supporters used to throw in a bar of soap when Celtic visited.

[HenryMonk]

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This would reduce the capacity of the ground to around 12000, the average attendance is currently around that figure. .

perfect size for them, there actual average attendance is only 9681. think you better do better reasearch for your HND

[WindyMiller]

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perfect size for them, there actual average attendance is only 9681. think you better do better reasearch for your HND

Our attendances are consistently 2k+ more than them and we'll struggle to fill our new stadium.

[RyeSloan]

[QUOTE=one day maybe...;2759676]I am actually covering this stadium development for my business studies HND, if Aberdeen do not move from Pittodrie they will struggle to survive, pouring money into an old stadium does not make good business sense. The stadium is basically a dinosaur with virtually no room for development. Uefa catergory 3 regulations stipulate that the stadium must meet certain criteria for them to host any European matches in the future and therefore they will not be able to stage any home games at Pittodrie, meaning they would have to play European games probably at Dundee, losing revenue in the process. The cost and time scale involved redeveloping of Pittodrie is somewhere in the region of £25 million over a five year period. This would reduce the capacity of the ground to around 12000, the average attendance is currently around that figure. In my opinion they need to move, a new stadium will obviously create problems to start with, but i am sure these will be overcome given time. Aberdeen are looking at shuttle buses from Union Square which is situated near both the train & bus stations to transport fans to the ground which will be situated at the south of the city at Loiriston Loch (Cove). The Grampian Police have expressed safety fears regarding fans walking to the stadium, with its proximity to such a busy and fast road. Calls for a 30 mile an hour speed limit in and around the ground on match days have been called for. The debt can be serviced, redeveloping Pittodrie would be financial suicide.
This stadium will be built and it will benefit the club.[/QUOTE]

Pure supposition.

If you are studying business then you must be aware that having a significant debt accrued for an under performing asset (they will not significantly raise attendance with this move) that is very difficuly to service in relation to their free cashflow means that it is a very high risk move and there is absolutely no certainty that it will benefit them in any way what so ever.

There has been a raft of clubs building new stadiums on exactly Aberdeens business plan that have been forced into administration.

[--------]

This looks very like the sort of plan that once surfaced for a stadium out at Straiton. Brand-new, very glossy (on the surface, anyway) and promising to be the answer to all our problems financially and otherwise. They're even planning to share the facilities with another local club.

Well, as we all know, since Hibs moved out to Straiton we've gone from strength to strength - financially sound, trophies just cascading in, Euro nights every season well into the back-end of the season, big-name star players...

And that's just the Jambos.

Shuttle buses from the town-centre to the stadium? Shuttle buses back again after the games? £38 million to find?

I wish them luck, but I can't see this being a winner myself.

Apart from anything else - will the banks allow them to spend the £38 million on the new stadium BEFORE they sell Pittodrie?

And if they have to sell Pittodrie first, where they gonnae play while this new one's being built?

Cove Rangers ground?

Inverness?

Play dodge-the-flying-smokies at Arbroath?

[HibbyKeith]

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Anyone who thinks that either Pittodrie or Caley Stadium is the coldest ground in Scotland clearly has'nt been to Arbroath on a windy winters day, with the wind lashing the spray from the sea over the enclosure, Aberdeen and Inverness are bloody tropical compared to Gayfield !!

I said it was the coldest stadium in the league not the country

[FromTheCapital]

They can hardly fill Pittodrie...

[Keith_M]

I've got a feeling they'll have to scale back their plans.

A stadium with a capacity of 22,000 is probably OK for the long term but they might have to build it in stages. Though if they do, that's another 'New Bayview' on the way.

[R'Albin]

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Why?

I hope they fail and suffer a horrible death

A massive 7000 at Pittodrie tonight.

seriously only 7000 last night btw that's absolutely awful!

[xyz23jc]

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I don't.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Yep lets hope Aberdeen and the Hertz go bust and the OF go down south. With nobody left to play we might even win the Scottish Cup.

We'd need the likes of Ayr United and Ross County to join them before we could hope to land that elusive silverware.

[WindyMiller]

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Too bad probably about 60% or more of those crowds are only watching two teams. This league is totally uncompetitive, might as well toss a coin before a baw is kicked tae see who is going tae win it and it's about tae get a whole lot worse if those running the game have their way. Shiny new stadiums will make nae difference tae that. Those that will kill the SPL are those that are running it.

Norwich have already sold 20k ST's for next season, from an area with a population 3/4's the size of Aberdeenshire.

[Saorsa]

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Norwich have already sold 20k ST's for next season, from an area with a population 3/4's the size of Aberdeenshire.

Maybe I'm missing something but what's that got tae do with my post?

[EasterRoad4Ever]

This ain't gonna happen. We're in a deep recession that is going to get worse before it starts to get any better. Councils are going to struggle to provide even the most basic of services, and unemployment is at highest levels since 94 and rising.

The only possible way this MIGHT happen is if Scotland managed to host the World or Euro Cup in which case, they may get central Gov help.

Aberdeen are living on past glories from a bygone age, aided by the oil boom, that will never return. They really need to get over it, get real, and start growing up.

[one day maybe...]

[/B]QUOTE]

Pure supposition.

If you are studying business then you must be aware that having a significant debt accrued for an under performing asset (they will not significantly raise attendance with this move) that is very difficuly to service in relation to their free cashflow means that it is a very high risk move and there is absolutely no certainty that it will benefit them in any way what so ever.

There has been a raft of clubs building new stadiums on exactly Aberdeens business plan that have been forced into administration.[/QUOTE]

Football clubs are treated differently from other organisations, notably they can create preferential football creditors in the case of insolvency, even ahead of HMR&C. A significant number of clubs have gone into administration or liquidation, paid their football creditors in full, but paid little or nothing to creditors generally and local businesses in particular. In practice, many of these clubs are safe because their debts are to directors, like our manky neighbours. Stuart Milne is the 45th richest man in football with an estimated £140 million just one place ahead of our very own Sir Tom farmer, and just as Sir Tom did for Hibs, Stuart Milne would do for Aberdeen, it is not in his interest for Aberdeen to be forced into administration, nor is it in his interest to throw good resources at a stadium that fails to meet UEFA regulations and would cost £30 million to redevelop.
As I said football isn't like any other business.
As for me yeah I know I need to work harder to get my HND

[WindyMiller]

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Maybe I'm missing something but what's that got tae do with my post?

Norwich's potential fan-base isn't contaminated by sectarian bigots and glory hunters supporting teams from the other side of the country.

[Saorsa]

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Norwich's potential fan-base isn't contaminated by sectarian bigots and glory hunters supporting teams from the other side of the country.

I think we're making the same point then. Scotland may according tae what ever stats have one of the best supported leagues for a country this size (which is what I was commenting on in my 1st post) but that means little IMO because in reality it is Smellsick and Rankers that are well supported the, league is not.

[WindyMiller]

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I think we're making the same point then. Scotland may according tae what ever stats have one of the best supported leagues for a country this size (which is what I was commenting on in my 1st post) but that means little IMO because in reality it is Smellsick and Rankers that are well supported the, league is not.

Exactly.
In theory a club like Aberdeen should be able to fill a 22k seater stadium, gven the population of the region (Norwich's average this season is 25k).
Unfortunately the bigot brothers skew the situation and long-term this will only get worse.

[RyeSloan]

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[/B]QUOTE]

Football clubs are treated differently from other organisations, notably they can create preferential football creditors in the case of insolvency, even ahead of HMR&C. A significant number of clubs have gone into administration or liquidation, paid their football creditors in full, but paid little or nothing to creditors generally and local businesses in particular. In practice, many of these clubs are safe because their debts are to directors, like our manky neighbours. Stuart Milne is the 45th richest man in football with an estimated £140 million just one place ahead of our very own Sir Tom farmer, and just as Sir Tom did for Hibs, Stuart Milne would do for Aberdeen, it is not in his interest for Aberdeen to be forced into administration, nor is it in his interest to throw good resources at a stadium that fails to meet UEFA regulations and would cost £30 million to redevelop.
As I said football isn't like any other business.
As for me yeah I know I need to work harder to get my HND

I don't understand your reply in terms of how any of the above makes the new stadium any more affordable.

Are you suggesting that because Aberdeen are a football club they can simply accrue a huge debt without the means to service it?

Firstly who would lend on this basis...I assume you are saying it would be Milne but even if he was a 'football creditor' what would he get out of such a default?

Yet in the same reply you say there is nothing in it for Milne if Abderdeen go into Admin...this would suggest that you expect him to fund any shorfall year on year on top of his anticipated liabilities of the new stadium debt.

Football club or not (and in fact all the more because football clubs are such strange beasts) I don't understand how you can confidently predict the stadium will be built...surely the basic rules still apply, you need the cashflow to service any debt. If it is to be built who will pay for it? How will those debts be secured? How will they be serviced and ultimately paid off?

[one day maybe...]

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I don't understand your reply in terms of how any of the above makes the new stadium any more affordable.

It doesn't make it any more affordable, my point is they keep servicing the up keep of the present Pittodrie. A pointless venture long term. £30 million to redevelop it over 5 years???? It comes down to, do they as the owners want to spend £30 million on redeveloping Pittodrie or do they want keep the money (where ever they may be getting that from) that will cost and put it into a new stadium, added to the money from the sale of Pittodrie.
Are you suggesting that because Aberdeen are a football club they can simply accrue a huge debt without the means to service it?
By no means do I mean that, yes they will be left with debt, every football club has debt. How much debt they will have to service remains to be seen.

Firstly who would lend on this basis...I assume you are saying it would be Milne but even if he was a 'football creditor' what would he get out of such a default?
Some of the money will come from the sale of the Pittodrie, estimated value over £20 million, that sale will come from Milne, of that there is no doubt, he has wanted that prime location for decades.

Yet in the same reply you say there is nothing in it for Milne if Abderdeen go into Admin...this would suggest that you expect him to fund any shorfall year on year on top of his anticipated liabilities of the new stadium debt.
What I said was it would not be in Milnes interest for Aberdeen to go into administration, I never said there would not be anything in it for him if they did. Personally I think Milne will try to move on in years to come, leaving Aberdeen in someone else's care, if he can find a buyer.

Football club or not (and in fact all the more because football clubs are such strange beasts) I don't understand how you can confidently predict the stadium will be built...surely the basic rules still apply, you need the cashflow to service any debt.
A lot of work, planning, procedures and policies to have went through for it not to be built, but we will have to wait and see on that one I suppose.

If it is to be built who will pay for it?
I assume it will be through loans, various shares, debentures, stadium naming rights, sale of Pittodrie, Aberdeen city council (though that would be a real bone of contention as they are skint) Milne himself and other directors who want this pushed through

How will those debts be secured?
I think when a man has a personal fortune of some £145 million, I don't think he will have a problem giving security, (why would he? god knows. Why do football chairmen go to such lengths when they dont have to? Perhaps to feed their egotistic natures)

How will they be serviced and ultimately paid off?
That will remain to be seen, on current attendances they will have a big problem, only so much hospitality ventures can bring in on non match days, so ultimately yes they are gambling.

Ultimately (you are right) yes in business terms, is this the right change at this moment in time given where Scottish football is right now? Is there really any need for any of the teams involved in our Premier League to waste money chasing a fruitless dream?

I for one am glad that our team got their house in order long ago, we now look to have stolen a march on some of our competitors (bigot brother excluded) who will have to invest money on their infastructure sooner rather than later, leaving us free to hopefully pay a better wage than most for players.
In my opinion though I still think this stadium will be built.
The financial ramifications from it will no doubt make or break a team living on past glories and seeking to recapture them. At what cost though.

[marinello59]

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Ultimately (you are right) yes in business terms, is this the right change at this moment in time given where Scottish football is right now? Is there really any need for any of the teams involved in our Premier League to waste money chasing a fruitless dream?

I for one am glad that our team got their house in order long ago, we now look to have stolen a march on some of our competitors (bigot brother excluded) who will have to invest money on their infastructure sooner rather than later, leaving us free to hopefully pay a better wage than most for players.
In my opinion though I still think this stadium will be built.
The financial ramifications from it will no doubt make or break a team living on past glories and seeking to recapture them. At what cost though.

They have to build something as the bank made it a condition of their debt restructuring several years ago so they have no choice in the matter. I rather suspect that it will be a scaled down version though. Personally I hope that they have to groundshare with Banks O' Dee.

[RyeSloan]

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Ultimately (you are right) yes in business terms, is this the right change at this moment in time given where Scottish football is right now? Is there really any need for any of the teams involved in our Premier League to waste money chasing a fruitless dream?

I for one am glad that our team got their house in order long ago, we now look to have stolen a march on some of our competitors (bigot brother excluded) who will have to invest money on their infastructure sooner rather than later, leaving us free to hopefully pay a better wage than most for players.
In my opinion though I still think this stadium will be built.
The financial ramifications from it will no doubt make or break a team living on past glories and seeking to recapture them. At what cost though.

Thanks for the reply.

I get you now although I don't agree.

Milne is under no obligation to underwrite anything

Milne is under no obligation to fund anything. It's more likely he is looking at my next point as some sort of exit strategy.

The sale of Pittodrie monies may well go towards paying down current debt and creditors

Aberdeen DON'T have £30m to re-develop Pittodrie so won't...that does not automatically mean they DO have £30m to build a new stadium

Just because a planning application takes time and money (Hearts sepnt over £1m on theirs according to their accounts) does in no way mean it will get built...there is no direct correlation.

You admit they have no real business plan to service the debt so are 'gambling'...I simply don't see who is going to front the millions needed to kick off this gamble...I don't see banks touching this with the longest barge pole in the world.

They might well still build the stadium or a version of it but your original statement of "This stadium will be built and it will benefit the club" still looks like pure supposition to me

I DO agree with one thing though. Hibs are the smart ones in all of this and despite years of pain it has been worth it, all we need now is to see the benefits of our approach...lets hope CC is finally the manager to leverage the excellent set up at ER to our advantage!!