Is our stadium a death-trap?

**Pete** · 07-11-2009 11:25 PM

I'm getting a bit sick of hearing this criticism leveled at our stadium. Hearts fans have been saying this for years and it seems to be catching on with recent comments on other fans message boards.

It relates to the design of the spiral staircases that serve the top tier in the away end. The argument is that if there was ever an emergency situation then evacuation would descend into chaos and maybe disaster due to the design of these steps. A large group of people trying to rush down these steps might cause bottle-necks and crushes.

I've never been in the top tier of the away end but I'm assuming the design of the stairs is similar to that of the west. I have to admit that when I sat up in the gods I left my seat five minutes before the end and watched the match on the screens in the concourse. Therefore I have never witnessed a mass movement of people on these stairways...is it really that bad?
If I'm being honest a run down those stairs when they're empty and when you've have had a few pints is "helter skelter" to say the least.

I don't know if these people have a genuine point or if they simply fancy themselves as amatuer health and safety officers.
Surely the right people who really know what they're on about wouldn't have granted us a safety certificate if our ground was that "unsafe". The fact that it's open for use demostrates that it's safe as these people surely take into account all aspects of safe discharge from the ground in an emergency situation.

While the topic of "unsafe grounds" is being discussed... I'd like to throw Tynecastle into the mix.
The steep gradient might generate atmosphere but in my opinion it is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm surprised they got that past the relevant bodies.

Say there was a fire or a bombscare...you have several thousand people trying to descend on the concourse below in a short space of time. All it takes is for a couple of idiots to start pushing and what would happen? That is one of the most unforgiving gradients in british football and people would probably tumble down like dominoes.

The Jambos might have a genuine point about our ground but I don't think they should be the ones throwing stones.

**john18722** · 07-11-2009 11:38 PM

Stairs are stairs, today's obsession with health and safety is ridiculous! There must be hundreds if not thousands of stadiums, high rises, sky scrapers throughout the world with stairs like those in the stands at Easter Road. Maybe they should have a nice safe slide on the side of the stand invade of emergencies. Then people will be safe and having fun
at the same time.

Given today's culture the safety of the stairs would have been considered in the design and implementation of the stand with the involvement of thr Health and Safety Executive. Stairs are there to be walked down and provide a suitable means of exit from the stand. How else would a supporter leave?

Rant over....... for now.

***Alex Trager*** · 07-11-2009 11:56 PM

I'm sure health and safety had alot to say with the way our stadium has been designed.However they have a cheek every time we went on the attack today i stood back becuase i knew if we had scored i'd have come away with a big scratch on my leg as i did the last derby of the season that place is the ultimate death trap

**jgl07** · 08-11-2009 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by peterdouglas

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I'm getting a bit sick of hearing this criticism leveled at our stadium. Hearts fans have been saying this for years and it seems to be catching on with recent comments on other fans message boards.

New one on me.

I have never heard a word about the South Stand.

I assume it must be Aberdeen who are doing the moaning. They and Celtic are the only ones who have been in the Upper Tier this season apart from a handful from Dundee United.

It has been open for thirteen years FFS.

**marinello59** · 08-11-2009 12:09 AM

Who has been moaning? First I have heard of it.

**monktonharp** · 08-11-2009 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by peterdouglas

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I'm getting a bit sick of hearing this criticism leveled at our stadium. Hearts fans have been saying this for years and it seems to be catching on with recent comments on other fans message boards.

It relates to the design of the spiral staircases that serve the top tier in the away end. The argument is that if there was ever an emergency situation then evacuation would descend into chaos and maybe disaster due to the design of these steps. A large group of people trying to rush down these steps might cause bottle-necks and crushes.

I've never been in the top tier of the away end but I'm assuming the design of the stairs is similar to that of the west. I have to admit that when I sat up in the gods I left my seat five minutes before the end and watched the match on the screens in the concourse. Therefore I have never witnessed a mass movement of people on these stairways...is it really that bad?
If I'm being honest a run down those stairs when they're empty and when you've have had a few pints is "helter skelter" to say the least.

I don't know if these people have a genuine point or if they simply fancy themselves as amatuer health and safety officers.
Surely the right people who really know what they're on about wouldn't have granted us a safety certificate if our ground was that "unsafe". The fact that it's open for use demostrates that it's safe as these people surely take into account all aspects of safe discharge from the ground in an emergency situation.

While the topic of "unsafe grounds" is being discussed... I'd like to throw Tynecastle into the mix.
The steep gradient might generate atmosphere but in my opinion it is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm surprised they got that past the relevant bodies.

Say there was a fire or a bombscare...you have several thousand people trying to descend on the concourse below in a short space of time. All it takes is for a couple of idiots to start pushing and what would happen? That is one of the most unforgiving gradients in british football and people would probably tumble down like dominoes.

The Jambos might have a genuine point about our ground but I don't think they should be the ones throwing stones.

First,it is not the "away" end. it is the Dunbar end, which we have filled against Leeds United,Liverpool,Barca,Napoli,Sporting,FCBesa,Nork opping,Juve,Hadjuk.etc.and will fill when we are back where we belong. and for any club in Scotland,or their fans,to complain about the area given to them in a league match,or cup game is a joke.The Holy Ground stands up with the best of them,regarding access,amenities,dispersal or whatever! cannae believe anyone even listening tae absalute pish coming from other SPL fans regarding safety,or whatever. Tynie/Tannadice/Pittodrie are all ****holes.Ibrox is good,the rest are so so.

**john18722** · 08-11-2009 07:29 AM

I smashed my knee off the seat infront of me really badly when celebrating Tam McManus' goal against Killie at Rugby Park in the Scottish cup Quarter Final when Mixu played at left back after Laursen went of injured. I called claims direct and was awarded a no win no fee amount for the mental and physical scarring which i injured that day because
of the injury.

So the Rugby Park away end is effectively a death trap. Utter disgrace. Health and Safety need to get that looked at!

**cwilliamson85** · 08-11-2009 09:21 AM

You should maybe tell the Hearts fans to sit in the Roseburn when its full. That is a death trap!

***givescotlandfreedom*** · 08-11-2009 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by cwilliamson85

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You should maybe tell the Hearts fans to sit in the Roseburn when its full. That is a death trap!

As is Tannadice

***Malthibby*** · 08-11-2009 11:44 AM

I've been there a few times & can't say that I have noticed an issue, but I'm not a H & S expert, so might not understand why a modern stand might be more of a death trap than say an oversized wooden hut built a hundred years ago.
GG

**Dashing Bob S** · 08-11-2009 01:39 PM

I don't think we need to concern ourselves unduly about safety implications for the away stand.

Just my view.

***NORTHERNHIBBY*** · 08-11-2009 01:53 PM

I don't think that you can say that our stadium has any real safety concerns, but if fans do not behave properly or do what the stewards tell you then I suppose any building has the potential. I would wonder if the comments from Dons fans, came from the ones that were in early [ anytime from 14:00] or from the ones that fancied another three shandies and lobbed up late.

**MussiHibee** · 08-11-2009 02:15 PM

If it was a death trap it would never have gained a safety certificate and without a safety certificate we could not open the stand to the public.

End Of.

***Keith_M*** · 08-11-2009 02:37 PM

I wouldn't exactly call it a death trap but I have been concerned some times over how long it takes to get out of the top tier.

The exit tunnel from the seating to the concourse underneath seems really narrow and you need to queue to get on the exit stair. I dread to think how long it would take to empty the stadium in an emergency.

That said, it's far from the worst stadium and it's no problem being delayed a bit under normal circumstances.

**Forza Fred** · 08-11-2009 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by NORTHERNHIBBY

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I don't think that you can say that our stadium has any real safety concerns,

I beg to differ.

I returned for the Huns game season and was seated in the upper west, a bit above and to the right of the director's box, looking down.

It was the first time I had been in that area.

I also took my wife, and we were both amazed that the staris had no hand railings down the side of them.

If there was a push forward people would have nothing to hold on to, and would simply fall down on the person in front of them.

It was such a conceren that we even sat there through half time instead of enjoying 'hospitality' because she simply did not feel comfortable.

And before anyone says it, yes she has been in big football stadiums with bigger crowds before, but this was the first time she felt 'unsafe'

***scoopyboy*** · 08-11-2009 04:05 PM

Anyone criticising any of our stands wants to go and sit in the main stand at Tynecastle.

I was in it for the League Cup semi against SJ and IMO won't get another Safety Certificate.

**Forza Fred** · 08-11-2009 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by scoopyboy

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Anyone criticising any of our stands wants to go and sit in the main stand at Tynecastle.

I was in it for the League Cup semi against SJ and IMO won't get another Safety Certificate.

I think there is merit in a more mature view tht its not about 'our stands are safer than yours'

I don't go to Tynecastle unless I'm in Scotland when Hibs play there, but I *can* report on what I see at ER.

For the life of me I can's see why there were no hand rails incorporated in the design..other than cost.

**Ozyhibby** · 08-11-2009 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Forza Fred

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I think there is merit in a more mature view tht its not about 'our stands are safer than yours'

I don't go to Tynecastle unless I'm in Scotland when Hibs play there, but I *can* report on what I see at ER.

For the life of me I can's see why there were no hand rails incorporated in the design..other than cost.

There are no hand rails because people do not want a restricted view.

Speaking of death traps, when is the safety certificate for the main stand at Tynecastle up for renewal?

***scoopyboy*** · 08-11-2009 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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There are no hand rails because people do not want a restricted view.

Speaking of death traps, when is the safety certificate for the main stand at Tynecastle up for renewal?

2010 I believe.

**--------** · 08-11-2009 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Forza Fred

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Originally Posted by NORTHERNHIBBY

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I don't think that you can say that our stadium has any real safety concerns,

I beg to differ.

I returned for the Huns game season and was seated in the upper west, a bit above and to the right of the director's box, looking down.

It was the first time I had been in that area.

I also took my wife, and we were both amazed that the staris had no hand railings down the side of them.

If there was a push forward people would have nothing to hold on to, and would simply fall down on the person in front of them.

It was such a conceren that we even sat there through half time instead of enjoying 'hospitality' because she simply did not feel comfortable.

And before anyone says it, yes she has been in big football stadiums with bigger crowds before, but this was the first time she felt 'unsafe'

I would agree. The stairways should have handrails, especially in the top tier where the slope is very steep - no problem going up, but a tad scary going down. i would only take one person to trip or miss his footing, and you could have a very nnasty accident. As ou say, there's absolutely nothing for anyone to hold on to.

It's not about sightlines, safety always comes first - or should, IMO.

Clearing the stands does take a long time, and while this isn't a problem in normal circumstances, it could be if there were a fire (unlikely, due to the construction of the stands) or a bomb alert. I understand that the stairwells themselves are designed as places of safety in the event of an emergency - that would work in case of fire, but probably not if the safety of the structure was in danger of being compromised by a bomb.

I don't think there's a major problem in the lower tiers - the people there can head straight for the pitch. There IS a problem in the upper tiers, IMO. The thinking may be that the stands have been built in such a way that fire won't be amajor problem, and that the structures themselves are such that safety isn't compromised. Trouble is, that's a bit reminiscent of the old "this ship is practically unsinkable" argument - and we knbow how watertight THAT argument proved to be...

**jakki** · 08-11-2009 07:11 PM

It can happen anywhere but the H&S want to reduce the risk.

About a year ago, I had just started to go down the escalator in Asda Livi, when I noticed a lady had missed her footing at the bottom and had fell. Others behind her had no way to miss but to fall over her.I screamed out to stop the escalator but it just kept moving and more people could not go anywhere but on top of her.I managed to get my bum onto the moving hand rail and got safely down before someone stopped the escalator.

Should H &S insist on someone standing all day long to push the button if someone falls, increasing the price of a tin of beans?

The worst fright I ever had was a Livi Gala day. I took my own 3 kids and 3 foster kids to the gala day at Howden Park just before dinner time. I had made up a picnic lunch and we all settled on a ground sheet half way up the hill. The kids were happilly watching "its a Knock out" below us and I was listening to the band above us.

Then we had lunch.The kids were all intio the picnic lunch whilst I was feeding the 11 month old a yoghart whilst strapped into her stroller.I looked up and saw the oompa band had finished and a tractor and trailer was collecting their seats. I did notice that it was dead in line with me if the brakes failed.

I contnued to feed the baby her yogart until I heard the screams. I looked up and there was these hugh tractor tyres less thas a foot from me and the baby. I had nightmares for weeks with this. However the driver had ran down the hill and caudht up with his tractor and managed to turn the wheel away from us. It must have been less than an inch.

The first aid people arrived and took us all and the driver to their tent. I and the driver were both given a cup of tea with plenty of sugar, but they thought it best to take my kids round the stalls and after a wee word they all got free bashes or a gift from the stall. I HATE tea but I drank . The driver pleaded me not to report it and I reckoned his telling of the incident to his workmates would have more impact than a memo from the Council to not park directly over the public

**heretoday** · 08-11-2009 07:30 PM

Worst death trap used to be at Tynecastle at the school end of the ground. There was a tunnel that ran underneath the terrace and it could get pretty jam-packed on big match days.

The tunnel ran from the turnstile entrances off McLeod St and came up on the terrace under the corner of the enclosure roof - the idea being to more evenly distibute the crowd. I was always surprised that a combination of drunks and useless policing didn't lead to a disaster.

**JCM** · 08-11-2009 07:34 PM

As a professional structural engineer I can assure you that the Health and Safety Executive would have absolutely no input into the design of the stairways. These stairs will have been designed by the stadium Architect to comply with all relevant Building Technical Standard Regulations. These stairs I can assure you comply with all the current legislation regarding ingress/egress from sport stadia othrewise a safety certificate would not be issued.

**Mikeystewart** · 09-11-2009 01:21 PM

Yeah i recently was in the top teir of the famous five and was worried about the hight of the barrier or should i say the lack of height or mabey im just scared of hights.

**Phil MaGlass** · 09-11-2009 01:33 PM

I am surprised the first aid folk gave you sugar and tea,if you were in shock or had a good scare its the last they should be giving you.

**--------** · 09-11-2009 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by JCM

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As a professional structural engineer I can assure you that the Health and Safety Executive would have absolutely no input into the design of the stairways. These stairs will have been designed by the stadium Architect to comply with all relevant Building Technical Standard Regulations. These stairs I can assure you comply with all the current legislation regarding ingress/egress from sport stadia othrewise a safety certificate would not be issued.

Then maybe the legislation should be changed? The slope in the upper tiers and the lack of handrails combined don't look too secure to me.

**GreenCastle** · 09-11-2009 01:37 PM

Email to Hibs ?

Never had any major issues - but having sat in upper South and Upper west the stairs leading to the seats maybe should have a handrail installed if possible ?

The stairs inside are fine though - if anyone has been to St James Park - level 7 is right up there.

***RyeSloan*** · 09-11-2009 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Doddie

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Then maybe the legislation should be changed? The slope in the upper tiers and the lack of handrails combined don't look too secure to me.

And the number of horror incidents the design has led to so far is what exactly?

***BSEJVT*** · 09-11-2009 01:40 PM

Can hardly believe I am reading this thread.

Off the top of my head I could name lots of stadiums with more pressing H & S concerns than ER.

Its just another example of the nanny state we live in now.

If it was remotely dangerous in any shape of form H & S would shut it down and it wouldnt re-open before remedial action to sort the slightest chance of a potential problem caused for the only one legged drunk 18ft blind and deaf person on the planet, who ran a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of being washed down the stairs by a thermo nuclear blast originated in and sponsored by Tibet.

Apologies, some of the above must be non PC but FFS

Some folk just need to man up a bit.

Got to go, have someone from H & S coming to see if it would be okay to open a bag of crisps in a public place.

I can see the issue for folk with vertigo related complaints etc re lack of barriers, my point would be that it is surely up to them to put themselves in an environment where that is not a concern for them, eg by sitting low down at the front, its not for the club to design a stadium to cater for any potential issue someone may suffer from.

The costs would be exhorbitant and the extra resources would be wasted on the many who do not need or use them.