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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Life's not like that though is it.

    Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

    Have a day off.

    Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.
    fans shout at players at every club so why are there succesful clubs? the abuse players get at say Italian clubs is 10x worse than what say Rankin or Alan Obrien got or gets, thing is IMo the players dont really focus on it, in heat of game they need to hear it I bet when I shout it gets lost in noise of everything else.

    Clubs are sucsesful due to how they are run and the players signed along with manager, a few folk on here and at games given it tight to JR matters not a jot.

    You say about somebody shoutiung at me doing my job, lets see how many players who get stick fancy the 9-5 or the stick?

    You seem to be under impression we are the worst for it, OF give there own plenty of stick, as does every club, its part of game rightly or wrongly.


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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Life's not like that though is it.

    Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

    Have a day off.

    Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.
    Interesting wilful misinterpretation of my point.

    I'm talking about the nature of professional football. You're suddenly off on some tangent about Rice and Hughes! As in any role, the management of individuals will be best achieved by understanding each individuals drives and needs. Some need a hug, others need a kick. Thats up to them to manage, and has zero to do with your OP.

    One would hope part of the management is teaching players how to cope with the more appalling abuse they will get. Hey - im not defending any knuckle dragging, barely evolved lowlife getting his jollies by spending the match ripping the Lillian out of, say, Rankin - not by any stretch. But it would absurd in the extreme to imagine that players dont go into this with their eyes wide open, and - one would hope - with tools to help them cope with it.

    As for the Yantorno point - I have no idea what you are on about here. He hardly kicked a ball in anger all season - he didnt have enough pitch time to be barracked

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

    Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

    If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

    So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

    Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

    I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

    Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

    Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

    At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

    Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?
    Can't unerstand this post. You start off by telling us why we should be better than them and end up telling us we shouldn't expect to be. Disnae make sense.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoCarpets View Post
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    Interesting wilful misinterpretation of my point.

    I'm talking about the nature of professional football. You're suddenly off on some tangent about Rice and Hughes! As in any role, the management of individuals will be best achieved by understanding each individuals drives and needs. Some need a hug, others need a kick. Thats up to them to manage, and has zero to do with your OP.

    One would hope part of the management is teaching players how to cope with the more appalling abuse they will get. Hey - im not defending any knuckle dragging, barely evolved lowlife getting his jollies by spending the match ripping the Lillian out of, say, Rankin - not by any stretch. But it would absurd in the extreme to imagine that players dont go into this with their eyes wide open, and - one would hope - with tools to help them cope with it.

    As for the Yantorno point - I have no idea what you are on about here. He hardly kicked a ball in anger all season - he didnt have enough pitch time to be barracked
    The overall point here is that the players respond better to support than criticism as a whole and the slaughtering of the team on here last night and many other times, just further hinders improvement.

    Supporters should support. Typically they pay their money to earn the right to vent their spleen. That's not supporting in any human sense

    In Yantorno's case, here's a guy getting paid every week, no need to play but was still miserable as sin and that affected his self belief. It is reported when he moved to Chester that he spent his time at home reading posts such as on .net where posters were offering opinions such as 'Should never have signed him, waste of a wage, never good enough for Hibs hence why he's not playing etc.

    McCann had a similar problem and the fans did get on his back on the pitch as he played on with an injury, and he suffered. Whether or not professional footballers can take certain levels of abuse doesn't justify/condone the abuse nor does it help the situation.

    So the next part of the discussion is:

    1. Why do supporters (in this case, Hibs supporters) willingly assist the team's decline by slaughtering them on and off the pitch?

    2. Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    The overall point here is that the players respond better to support than criticism as a whole and the slaughtering of the team on here last night and many other times, just further hinders improvement.

    Supporters should support. Typically they pay their money to earn the right to vent their spleen. That's not supporting in any human sense

    In Yantorno's case, here's a guy getting paid every week, no need to play but was still miserable as sin and that affected his self belief. It is reported when he moved to Chester that he spent his time at home reading posts such as on .net where posters were offering opinions such as 'Should never have signed him, waste of a wage, never good enough for Hibs hence why he's not playing etc.

    McCann had a similar problem and the fans did get on his back on the pitch as he played on with an injury, and he suffered. Whether or not professional footballers can take certain levels of abuse doesn't justify/condone the abuse nor does it help the situation.

    So the next part of the discussion is:

    1. Why do supporters (in this case, Hibs supporters) willingly assist the team's decline by slaughtering them on and off the pitch?

    2. Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?
    I agree with what you say to a certain point however IMO the abuse or barracking on here or at ground at the level its at now has absoloutley zero effect or part to play in were the club is or going too.

    For me its only an issue if its only at Hibs, its not, its at everyclub therefore its not a factor at all.

  7. #66
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    Cant be bothered reading through this whole thread, started reading the first page but then i got bored. Heres my feelings..

    We have the RIGHT to have high expectations at Hibs, that being a 3rd place finish and a good run in the cups every year! Folk who have been saying we are similar to the likes of Motherwell etc...GET A GRIP!
    Now i know theres a Well fan whos been posting on this thread, and mate, dont you for one second think your club is on par with Hibs!
    Lets start with the attendances we get everyweek compaired to Motherwell, Kilmarknock, Hamilton, Falkirk etc etc. We get TRIPLE the amount of fans EVERY WEEK, than these clubs do! They turn up at their stadiums each week and sit with around 3,000-5,000 fellow supporters!
    We on the other hand NEVER have less than 10,000 at a league home game. This is one of the main reasons i put us well above these teams outside the OF, Hearts and Aberdeen. Attendances bring in money, and therefore we bring in a hell of alot more money coming in each week than these other teams. We also sell players for BIG money, something that other clubs just simply dont do, because they dont produce the stars we do!
    Ah i could give many more reasons why us as Hibs supports should have high expectations, the list is quite big! We are a big club folks. Lets have some ambition and be positive!
    Last edited by California-Hibs; 23-09-2009 at 04:38 PM.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by HailHail1875 View Post
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    Cant be bothered reading through this whole thread, started reading the first page but then i got bored. Heres my feelings..

    We have the RIGHT to have high expectations at Hibs, that being a 3rd place finish and a good run in the cups every year! Folk who have been saying we are similar to the likes of Motherwell etc...GET A GRIP!
    Now i know theres a Well fan whos been posting on this thread, and mate, dont you for one second think your club is on par with Hibs!
    Lets start with the attendances we get everyweek compaired to Motherwell, Kilmarknock, Hamilton, Falkirk etc etc. We get TRIPLE the amount of fans EVERY WEEK, than these clubs do! They turn up at their stadiums each week and sit with around 3,000-5,000 fellow supporters!
    We on the other hand NEVER have less than 10,000 at a league home game. This is one of the main reasons i put us well above these teams outside the OF, Hearts and Aberdeen. Attendances bring in money, and therefore we bring in a hell of alot more money coming in each week than these other teams. We also sell players for BIG money, something that other clubs just simply dont do, because they dont produce the stars we do!
    Ah i could give many more reasons why us as Hibs supports should have high expectations, the list is quite big! We are a big club folks. Lets have some ambition and be positive!
    We're a medium sized SPL club - Celtc and Rangers (like it or not) are the only "big" clubs in Scottish football.

    When we go around calling other clubs "wee" teams we sound like Yams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Todd View Post
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    We're a medium sized SPL club - Celtc and Rangers (like it or not) are the only "big" clubs in Scottish football.

    When we go around calling other clubs "wee" teams we sound like Yams.
    I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

    We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsberg View Post
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    I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

    We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL
    I'll meet you halfway at medium-large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Todd View Post
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    I'll meet you halfway at medium-large.
    This isnt Mcdonalds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsberg View Post
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    I disagree, we are the next stage down from OF, we are a big club the OF are massive, sound like Yams or not we get double the crowds Falkirk etc get we have the right to say we are bigger, Hearts have a higher average but not by enough for them to be saying we are small, thats just banter.

    We are far larger than half the clubs in the SPL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?
    Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

    So.... do I win the prize?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

    So.... do I win the prize?
    Well done, neither cutting nor funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Well done, neither cutting nor funny.
    That is the point of your OP, though.

    Motherwell fans apparently:

    > have lower expectations
    > never barrack their players or criticise them online
    > are steady individuals, neither up nor down

    and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

    Or have I misunderstood?

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    I think I'm going to apply to join the rationalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    That's the best selection of cliques I've ever seen offered on the board. Brilliant!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    That is the point of your OP, though.

    Motherwell fans apparently:

    > have lower expectations
    > never barrack their players or criticise them online
    > are steady individuals, neither up nor down

    and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

    Or have I misunderstood?
    You've misunderstood.

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    I find the barracking point totally ridiculous on reflection, I mean it happens everywhere at every club its got nothing to do with progress or where we are at.

    Lets say it did, so while we are barracking our number 5, the other teams fans are doing the same thing to one of their own. So theres the leveller, but there is no need for a leveller as its not an issue.

    I dunno if anyone thinks we are worse and what proof there is, certainly if we are any worse and its well known it hasnt stopped several players from this league joining us.

  19. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsberg View Post
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    I find the barracking point totally ridiculous on reflection, I mean it happens everywhere at every club its got nothing to do with progress or where we are at.

    Lets say it did, so while we are barracking our number 5, the other teams fans are doing the same thing to one of their own. So theres the leveller, but there is no need for a leveller as its not an issue.

    I dunno if anyone thinks we are worse and what proof there is, certainly if we are any worse and its well known it hasnt stopped several players from this league joining us.
    Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

    Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

    Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

    Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

    Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?
    Oh for God's sake.
    What do you say to a player after his pass shoots 10 yds past it's intended target for the umpteenth time.....well done, good try, you'll get it next time
    At the basic level we are paying these guys to do something for us, which is entertain us. If they continually fail to do so surely we have a right to tell them. If a plumber fitted your sink upside down I'm sure you would let him know.....and if he made the same mistake again, well work it out.
    BTW - I'm pretty sure a lot of threads on here concerning Yantorno were actually demanding that he did start/play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vahibbie View Post
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    Oh for God's sake.
    What do you say to a player after his pass shoots 10 yds past it's intended target for the umpteenth time.....well done, good try, you'll get it next time
    At the basic level we are paying these guys to do something for us, which is entertain us. If they continually fail to do so surely we have a right to tell them. If a plumber fitted your sink upside down I'm sure you would let him know.....and if he made the same mistake again, well work it out.
    BTW - I'm pretty sure a lot of threads on here concerning Yantorno were actually demanding that he did start/play.
    Cool, as we were then. It's served us so well up to now.

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    i respect your opinions speedway and i think i understand what you are saying in terms of constantly hounding our players.

    but i really do feel that its no worse at hibernian FC than any other club in the SPL.

    I grant you that young men such as hanlon, stevenson and mcann would take a bit time to get used to receiving abuse for poor performances..players such as ian murray, stokes, miller and mcbride who have played for a whole host of high profile clubs should be able to handle shouts from the stands after a few years in the game

    and finally who ever is suggesting that motherwell FC are bigger than Hibernian FC is being quite simply stupid. HIbs are bigger in every way,shape and form,although this gives us no god given right to finish higher than motherwell in the league or beat them on every occasion.

    i would suggest that Rangers and celtic are of course the biggest, followed by hibs,hearts,aberdeen and probarlly dundee united and then the rest of the clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Okay, let's try it from another angle. Let's say the other team's fans are getting tore into their own number 5 and we are getting tore into our number 5. Let's now say that both number 5's are genuinely crap.

    Let's now say that the other team continue on as they are and we decide to get right behind our hapless number 5 to try and encourage him to improve. Let's say we do this for each game and each player who is not doing the business on the park but yet still getting picked.

    Over the course of a season, do you think that our team would benefit from the supporters doing this, worsen from the supporters doing this or no discernable difference either way?
    I dont think it needs looked at any other way, the way the Hibs fans treat their players is no different from any other club, its of no consequence to the direction Hibs have been on or are going. The thing is above some fans will support a player some will give them stick thats how it works, if a player cannot find the ability within themselves no matter whats cominf from stands then they maybe need to look elsewhere, but as I have stated its all really a nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsberg View Post
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    I dont think it needs looked at any other way, the way the Hibs fans treat their players is no different from any other club, its of no consequence to the direction Hibs have been on or are going. The thing is above some fans will support a player some will give them stick thats how it works, if a player cannot find the ability within themselves no matter whats cominf from stands then they maybe need to look elsewhere, but as I have stated its all really a nothing.
    This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

    In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

    So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellfan1984 View Post
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    Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is

    As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

    Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

    Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...
    You are having a laugh mate. Hibs are and will always be a bigger club on and off the field than your Motherwells, Falkirks, Hamiltons, Dundee Utds, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Returning to the OP, why when we've spent money on bringing in a widely agreed better standard of playing and coaching personnel, do we still deliver the same Hibsesque results as we've done year in year out with the odd exception, for the last 30+ years?
    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    Because it's the Hibs supporters to blame - every last one of them, whether at the ground or on Hibs online forums! Mea culpa.

    So.... do I win the prize?
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    Well done, neither cutting nor funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    That is the point of your OP, though.

    Motherwell fans apparently:

    > have lower expectations
    > never barrack their players or criticise them online
    > are steady individuals, neither up nor down

    and this is a key factor in their team's early success this season.

    Or have I misunderstood?
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    You've misunderstood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.
    So I was right then!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    So I was right then!
    No you were wrong:

    1. By suggesting that I was blaming 'every last one' of the Hibs support and

    2. By claimng things I'd never said about the Motherwell support in the spirit of facetiousness.


    But you know that fine well don't you BEEJ?

  28. #87
    Coaching Staff BEEJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    No you were wrong:

    1. By suggesting that I was blaming 'every last one' of the Hibs support and

    2. By claimng things I'd never said about the Motherwell support in the spirit of facetiousness.


    But you know that fine well don't you BEEJ?
    OK, I was stretching the point a little. But the general premise was correct.

    FWIW I think it's an overly simplistic theory, borne out of your (understandable) frustration at some of the more extreme comments that were flying about this site on Tuesday night.

    Without doubt there is seldom an animated atmosphere at ER these days, one which is so positive for the Hibs players that it actually intimidates our opponents. I don't know what that is down to but suspect that it's many years of underachievement at ER that has conditioned supporters to expect the next gaff or c0ck-up to arrive in a match any time soon. Disappointment sems to be always just around the corner.

    But that alone would not (for me anyway) explain 30+ years of underachievement; indeed I think it could just as easily be argued that the causal relationship is the other way round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

    In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

    So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?
    Speedway, you are making some massive assumptions here:
    the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement. No. This isnt true. The biggest single constant factor is that two teams dominate in Scotland, and that they win a massive percentage of the available silverware. The others pick up scraps as a result of a good season or a fortunate cup draw. The league has been out of question for 20+ years, which leaves cups which are subject to luck as much as anything.

    Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes. Again, not true. in the nineties we were relegated and involved in play-offs for relegation. Now we are pretty much established as a top six team. Progress? I think so. Maybe not earth shattering but I prefer where we are now to where we were.

    The big club/wee club thing is frankly rather distastefully jamboesque, but in Scottish terms, it is indisputable that we are one of the big clubs by turnover and crowds. Forty league clubs, and Hibs are in the top five by both these criteria - this makes us de facto a big club.

    And as for your final question, I dont know the answer - if there is one. But im fairly sure it isnt politely putting a positive spin on ineptitude. Thats fine (and appropriate) when you're coaching kids. But these are well paid, professional sportsmen we're talking about here taking part in a game that is entertaining precisley because it can make otherwise rational people experience ludicrous highs and lows of emotions. The minute we stop cheering, shouting, holding our heads in despair and yes, occasionally shouting "get yer finger oot" is the minute it dies as a sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedway View Post
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    This whole debte was started by me suggesting that the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement.

    In the league and the cups, smaller teams have regular done better than us. Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes.

    So let's say that there's no foundation to my original argument, how do posters diagnose continued underachievement for this 'big club' of ours despite all personnel everywhere changing every few years?
    Depends what you mean by underachievement. Hibs, Dons and Jambos have each won the league 4 times (though only two of them have won it
    4 times in the 20th century and 3 times since WW2. Cups? Jambo's are a bit luckier. So the 2nd tier in scottish football have a fairly similarevel of achievement.
    To be honest I can take the defeats the only thing I won't accept is if any player playing for Hibernian doesn't bust a gut playing for the team. All the great teams work harder than everone else, then the talent can make the difference to the scoreline.

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    Left by mutual consent! Speedway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEEJ View Post
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    OK, I was stretching the point a little. But the general premise was correct.

    FWIW I think it's an overly simplistic theory, borne out of your (understandable) frustration at some of the more extreme comments that were flying about this site on Tuesday night.

    Yes, I agree that it's overly simplistic and definitely borne out of frustration.

    Without doubt there is seldom an animated atmosphere at ER these days, one which is so positive for the Hibs players that it actually intimidates our opponents. I don't know what that is down to but suspect that it's many years of underachievement at ER that has conditioned supporters to expect the next gaff or c0ck-up to arrive in a match any time soon. Disappointment sems to be always just around the corner.

    In my view, we condition ourselves in modern times. Player makes c0ck up, support groans, support lambasts said c0ck up and talks about it online for weeks, media trawl sites like this and pick up the stories, players and clubs get reputations, we buy the media and believe it, situation worsens.

    But that alone would not (for me anyway) explain 30+ years of underachievement; indeed I think it could just as easily be argued that the causal relationship is the other way round.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoCarpets View Post
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    Speedway, you are making some massive assumptions here:
    the fans are the only constant in Hibs constant under achievement. No. This isnt true. The biggest single constant factor is that two teams dominate in Scotland, and that they win a massive percentage of the available silverware. The others pick up scraps as a result of a good season or a fortunate cup draw. The league has been out of question for 20+ years, which leaves cups which are subject to luck as much as anything.

    It's not the dominant two that we're crashing out of cups too, nor costing us European qualification most of the time though. Hibsregularly slip up where our contemporaries (Arabs, Yams etc) don't - generally speaking.

    Yet we change directors, we change coaches, we change managers, we change players but nothing fundamentally changes. Again, not true. in the nineties we were relegated and involved in play-offs for relegation. Now we are pretty much established as a top six team. Progress? I think so. Maybe not earth shattering but I prefer where we are now to where we were.

    Cyclical though, We were top four under Miller in the nineties (?) so to be top six is just getting back to where we were and taking the better part of a decade to get there regularly.

    The big club/wee club thing is frankly rather distastefully jamboesque, but in Scottish terms, it is indisputable that we are one of the big clubs by turnover and crowds. Forty league clubs, and Hibs are in the top five by both these criteria - this makes us de facto a big club.

    In Scottish terms yes, in UK terms not by any stretch.


    And as for your final question, I dont know the answer - if there is one. But im fairly sure it isnt politely putting a positive spin on ineptitude. Thats fine (and appropriate) when you're coaching kids. But these are well paid, professional sportsmen we're talking about here taking part in a game that is entertaining precisley because it can make otherwise rational people experience ludicrous highs and lows of emotions. The minute we stop cheering, shouting, holding our heads in despair and yes, occasionally shouting "get yer finger oot" is the minute it dies as a sport.

    I don't know it either but I don't buy Carlsberg's 'we're no worse than anyone else so let's not examine how to improve' theory.

    I accept irrational emotion is de facto, though I've stopped feeling it myself because you learn the crack after a while. It's the level, speed and severity of attack on here and in the stands especially which I believe is contributing to hindering our improvement on the pitch, even if it's only a small hinderance, it's still a hinderance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyhorse View Post
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    Depends what you mean by underachievement. Hibs, Dons and Jambos have each won the league 4 times (though only two of them have won it
    4 times in the 20th century and 3 times since WW2. Cups? Jambo's are a bit luckier. So the 2nd tier in scottish football have a fairly similarevel of achievement.
    To be honest I can take the defeats the only thing I won't accept is if any player playing for Hibernian doesn't bust a gut playing for the team. All the great teams work harder than everone else, then the talent can make the difference to the scoreline.
    What I mean by underachievement CrazyHorse is how often a 'big club' like Hibs take home any silverwear (currently once every 1.6 decades) and how often we lose out to 'smaller' opponents.

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