Gannon at Motherwell - Hughes at Hibs

[Speedway]

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I disagree with you, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts have a similar ave attendance, there is then a drop off that in turn should ensure that if every club is run as well the 3 of us should be fighting for 3rd.

Now crowds alone are only 1 factor each club has a chairmen and investors, at this juncture Hibs are miles ahead of Aberdeen on this front and the other teams just shouldnt be in question as there attendance is what 4-5k less than ours.

They have done well based on Eddie Thompson doing them a good turn so thats why they are up there so he is like that big investor who comes in and no matter size of club they do well as have money, them aside no other clubs have money so why should we be in with them? When we have made strides to improving club.

We are not training in the park and we are not paying peanuts to a good few players and we are well run, this all factored in gives many of us the right to think we are and should be getting in for 3rd and beating SJ at home in the cup. Most of the SPL is in tons of debt paying lower wages and not paying fees for players with smaller crowds so what are we to expect?

That for me is the issue. We've got the right to think nothing. This is the issue on the park. The players don't think we have to scrap to win either and are getting turned over by inferior (on paper) teams. This is where we trip ourselves up, when that expectation and 'right to think we're the 3rd best' doesn't happen, we employ our 'right to assasinate' everything about the club, starting with the players and manager. This does nothing to assist an improvement in the future.

So what are we to expect? Nothing. As Yogi currently says, football owes the players (and I would add the fans) nothing. If a supportive support doesn't turn up in number to back a team that believes in itself and is willing to give everything for the cause, we'll always fall short and the whole thing becomes a downward spiral.

[Speedway]

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i agree we can be fickle like i said..and also like i said some of the threads are awful.

but if players feel under pressure from the stands maybe they shouldnt play football..as every clubs fans expect things of players and if they dont come up trumps they know they will get it in the neck.

playing football myself people give you stick/abuse all the time..its up to the player to change people's perceptions.

I agree, it is. But the fans are making every effort to hinder that IMO.

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Still dont agree with you on the fans attitude, if Murray is nervous he needs to think about his own ability, Murray has been treated well on most occasions so if nervous thats down to him. It is of course easy for me to say the fans made me play poor rather than look at myself.

I dont think Hibs are hated any more than other clubs.

Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

[Captain Trips]

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That for me is the issue. We've got the right to think nothing. This is the issue on the park. The players don't think we have to scrap to win either and are getting turned over by inferior (on paper) teams. This is where we trip ourselves up, when that expectation and 'right to think we're the 3rd best' doesn't happen, we employ our 'right to assasinate' everything about the club, starting with the players and manager. This does nothing to assist an improvement in the future.

So what are we to expect? Nothing. As Yogi currently says, football owes the players (and I would add the fans) nothing. If a supportive support doesn't turn up in number to back a team that believes in itself and is willing to give everything for the cause, we'll always fall short and the whole thing becomes a downward spiral.

Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

[Captain Trips]

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I agree, it is. But the fans are making every effort to hinder that IMO.



Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

Coming from Glasgow I have very differnt views from a lot of friends, good football friends whom have ST for both sides of OF, nobody I know really thinks we think we are great they dont really care they hate other teams for whatever reason and Hibs has never been one of them.

You seem to heap players form with us, its a good job to have as the blame for bad play after several winding roads of blame might eventually lay at the door of a player. Sometimes the players alone and manager are at fault and that will be case 90% IMO if they play bad its down to them.

I dont really see what other fans thinking of us as a club has to do with it, by and Large Rangers and Celtic are wrapped in each other with Rangers and Aberdeen having a history, we have Hearts and I would say the rest is whatever.

[erskine-hibby]

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Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

I agree.
Being a supporter is an emotional thing and with out those emotions we may as well not be supporters at all.

[Twa Cairpets]

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Hibs are hated by most, respected by none, in my experience of other supporters and supporters groups for portraying the same delusions of adaquacy that we barrack the yams for having.

I'm not looking for agreement on this necessarily, I respect your opinion. I'm looking for a debate on this subject and I'm getting it now. With regard to Murray, he was crucified (figuratively) on this very board when he was trying to breakthrough into the team, then crucified for being pish when McLeish played him out of position, then he died his hair for the derby and was the greatest thing ever, then he left and on coming back was an unforgiveable judas, then after looking good in a bad Mixu team, he was 'the difference in quality' again.

We're either bi-polar or we're idiots. Possibly both. Neither help the team on the park improve.

Back to accusations of arrant nonsense, Im afraid. I genuinely dont know where youre getting this from. I think Hibs supporters expectations are, in the main, about right. We differ in this hugely from our friends over the road. if we are hated by other teams/fans, it is not to do with a superiority complex.

You are guilty of sweeping generalisations and pigeon holing at the same time.

What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters. The only thing I have in common with loads of Hibs fans is the fact that they're Hibs fans. I disagree with almost everything they have to say about the team, the keech the spout towards the team during the game, and their monumental lack of knowledge about the laws, formations, ability and almost anything else you care to mention.

But I would venture to suggest we have no greater percentage of such oddballs than anyone else, and significantly less than many.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Is this a storm in an internet teacup? Or does it translate to the terrace (I think it probably does).

Speedway I've not waded through the comments. But I think we might be in a minority (of 2?)

FWIW I do think that confidence and psychology play a big part. Others (the majority) that think differently fine - were the same as other clubs in terms of stick. But what if your talking young players with potential. They need backing not barracking. Bringing on youngsters most will agree is the way forward. But we shoot ourselves in the feet if we dont give them tiem to develop - take some comments on Hanlon.

However what appears to me as apparent is that the status-quo is getting us no where. Continously shouting at players is not the answer IMO.

One perhaps final thought. Think the Miller era. Think Club86. Think the lauded coach supposedly bringing on young players.

From what I can see Miller didn't bring them on. The odd game here and there (often out of position). (Majority?) of the team were tried and tested older, experienced players.

Why was that? Was it because players were not given time to make the mistakes they need to in order to learn? And of those that he did bring on who really made it? Why was that?

[Speedway]

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Back to accusations of arrant nonsense, Im afraid. I genuinely dont know where youre getting this from. I think Hibs supporters expectations are, in the main, about right. We differ in this hugely from our friends over the road. if we are hated by other teams/fans, it is not to do with a superiority complex.

You are guilty of sweeping generalisations and pigeon holing at the same time.

What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters. The only thing I have in common with loads of Hibs fans is the fact that they're Hibs fans. I disagree with almost everything they have to say about the team, the keech the spout towards the team during the game, and their monumental lack of knowledge about the laws, formations, ability and almost anything else you care to mention.

But I would venture to suggest we have no greater percentage of such oddballs than anyone else, and significantly less than many.

Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

[lapsedhibee]

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What Hibs have is a fan base that is big enough to house rationalists, skeptics, nutters, loons and regular punters.

That's the best selection of cliques I've ever seen offered on the board. Brilliant!

[Captain Trips]

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Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

Thats from folk you speak to yet I have had differnt from whom I speak.

[Speedway]

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Yes but you have to have expectation thats the point in spending money on players and everything, what does the club do to not have you have expectations.

I realise that there are fans who will go nuts at every deafeat and how its all not acceptable. Why are we reducing debt why are we building East Mains why are we paying more in fees and wages, come on Speedway how can anyone therefore not take that and start to expect things?

I have stated that the level we are at and based on our rivals I expect Hibs to be getting long cup runs and finishing in Euroupe slots surely thats the point in spending more on players and fees, what is the point then what are we to expect?

I have stated there are 2 reactions to last 24hrs, 1 to the cup and 1 to the Manager and team, some people have combined the 2 and think its a disaster I myself have seperated them in fact I only really have 1 reaction as I am not judging a manager this early on, I think we need some players but I hope he knows this.

My knee jerk is the fact we are out a cup, we lose money and we lose chance in something we have seen joy in. the cup by its nature is knee jerk so will the reaction.

Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.

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Is this a storm in an internet teacup? Or does it translate to the terrace (I think it probably does).

Speedway I've not waded through the comments. But I think we might be in a minority (of 2?)

FWIW I do think that confidence and psychology play a big part. Others (the majority) that think differently fine - were the same as other clubs in terms of stick. But what if your talking young players with potential. They need backing not barracking. Bringing on youngsters most will agree is the way forward. But we shoot ourselves in the feet if we dont give them tiem to develop - take some comments on Hanlon.

However what appears to me as apparent is that the status-quo is getting us no where. Continously shouting at players is not the answer IMO.

One perhaps final thought. Think the Miller era. Think Club86. Think the lauded coach supposedly bringing on young players.

From what I can see Miller didn't bring them on. The odd game here and there (often out of position). (Majority?) of the team were tried and tested older, experienced players.

Why was that? Was it because players were not given time to make the mistakes they need to in order to learn? And of those that he did bring on who really made it? Why was that?

Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.



Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

I think we need Yuri Geller, Derren Brown or Paul McKenna in to do a collective "cleansing"

Food for thought - whats the difference between us and the Yam support when we go 1 down against opposition in the Scottish cup?

[Twa Cairpets]

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Which in itself is a sweeping generalisation.

I'll start by clarifying what I am suggesting and what I'm not suggesting.

I am suggesting that as fans, we have to accept a percentage of the blame when things go wrong, if we resort to barracking.

I am not suggesting that we are totally responsible and I agree that the players have to stand up and be counted as much as the fans.

Now onto the specifics of sweeping generalisations and pigeonholing. My experience of the internet forums, supporters clubs and individual fans of the following clubs over the last 25+ years is thus:

Rangers - Hibs? mini celtic ****.

Celtic - Hibs? pathetic feeder team with deluded 'flair football' fans

Dundee Utd - Hibs? nasty neds, with 'pigeon crap holding the stand together where the 'die hards' congregate' (actual quote from a fanzine)

Aberdeen - Hibs? think they're bigger than us, what have they ever won in Europe?

Falkirk - Hibs? Big team? we've gotfacilities that are just as good as theirs and we always give them a game on the tenth of the budget. Think they're something they're not.

Hearts - Hibs? etc

This is of course a summary of the most oft heard sentiments expressed by fans of these clubs that I've spoken to, latterly without them knowing of my own allegiances.

there are six SPL sides there, with us as a seventh, they constitute the 'Most of them hate us' statement I made.

So this is where the 'arrant nonsense' is coming from.

Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

[Captain Trips]

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Well the fact that we've always bottled it when it matters and never stole a march when we've had the chance makes sure I've got no expectations that we'll do it in the future.

Ambitions certainly, but no expectations. We're owed nothing, we can expect nothing.



Loko, you and I clearly agree on this so I haven't got much to add to your post except I think that our midset as supporters will ensure our ongoing underachieving.

Wether we have always bottled it is of no issue to me, that was different people at a different time, its irrelavant IMO

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

At Hibs is there not a pride in being "different" to pioneer? Perhaps we could poineer a support that didn't need to barrack a player, and a team that bought into fitness and way of life similar to the one Collins envisoned would that not really make a difference and give us an advantage? We'll never know. Is it worth a shot?

At the end of the day I think patience is the key. And as someone mentioned as supporters we're often driven by emotions rather than logic and reasoning. We all want the same thing - success. The patience bit its tricky as we've had (too) many false dawns. Too many transition seasons Hughes brought hope, spoke well but we've had upsets. Its up to him how he takes things from there.

I hope he succeeds time will tell how steep the challenge is.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Wether we have always bottled it is of no issue to me, that was different people at a different time, its irrelavant IMO

Irrelevant? - can we learn anything from history or are we bound to repeat it?

[Captain Trips]

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Irrelevant? - can we learn anything from history or are we bound to repeat it?

Learn what? Its irrelevant. Differnt people, different times, how long you want to go back?

[Twa Cairpets]

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At Hibs is there not a pride in being "different" to pioneer? Perhaps we could poineer a support that didn't need to barrack a player, and a team that bought into fitness and way of life similar to the one Collins envisoned would that not really make a difference and give us an advantage? We'll never know. Is it worth a shot?

At the end of the day I think patience is the key. And as someone mentioned as supporters we're often driven by emotions rather than logic and reasoning. We all want the same thing - success. The patience bit its tricky as we've had (too) many false dawns. Too many transition seasons Hughes brought hope, spoke well but we've had upsets. Its up to him how he takes things from there.

I hope he succeeds time will tell how steep the challenge is.

Not disputing the plus points of patience - I'm all for it myself. But good luck with the social engineering of football fans. You can change attitudes on things that have a wider societal impact such as racism and sexism, but this may be one that is beyond the scope of the most enlightened club.

Being a football fan is an inherently illogical thing. For a Hibby, investing massive emotional capital in eleven people you dont know, often (apparently) dont like, and with no huge expectation of significant success is surely fundamentally something that should get you locked up.

As long as football involves emotionand passion, I think the opportunity to afford such patience as you (and probably I) would like to players just aint going to happen. Why? Easy - you will be wrong as often as you are right. If patience = success, then fantastic, we'd all be doing it. But sadly it doesnt - you may increae your chances slightly for an individual to do well, but equally you may be constricting opportunity for someone to come in and do a job because you are giving someone else "every opportunity". Recent examples at ER? Ross Chisholm, AOB, Ross Campbell, and if I go back my 35 odd years of attending, I could name plenty more.

[Speedway]

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Not disputing the plus points of patience - I'm all for it myself. But good luck with the social engineering of football fans. You can change attitudes on things that have a wider societal impact such as racism and sexism, but this may be one that is beyond the scope of the most enlightened club.

Being a football fan is an inherently illogical thing. For a Hibby, investing massive emotional capital in eleven people you dont know, often (apparently) dont like, and with no huge expectation of significant success is surely fundamentally something that should get you locked up.

As long as football involves emotionand passion, I think the opportunity to afford such patience as you (and probably I) would like to players just aint going to happen. Why? Easy - you will be wrong as often as you are right. If patience = success, then fantastic, we'd all be doing it. But sadly it doesnt - you may increae your chances slightly for an individual to do well, but equally you may be constricting opportunity for someone to come in and do a job because you are giving someone else "every opportunity". Recent examples at ER? Ross Chisholm, AOB, Ross Campbell, and if I go back my 35 odd years of attending, I could name plenty more.

So whilst the fan remains resistant, the barracking will continue on-line and off-line with the same unjustified expectations and the same bile when those expectations don't get met.

Different players, different managers, similar outcomes.

[Captain Trips]

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So whilst the fan remains resistant, the barracking will continue on-line and off-line with the same unjustified expectations and the same bile when those expectations don't get met.

Different players, different managers, similar outcomes.

These are only unjustified in your opinion and IMO the "barracking" is of zero consequence to our progression. I also think the barracking is far far less than the support they get, so why not a focus on the bigger thing the players get support.

[Speedway]

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These are only unjustified in your opinion and IMO the "barracking" is of zero consequence to our progression. I also think the barracking is far far less than the support they get, so why not a focus on the bigger thing the players get support.

Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

[Captain Trips]

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Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

Yes I am at the game, the positive is as a whole Ie when players come out with the Hibees chants etc, the barracking is selective and less clear, the support when given is far louder. What would threads on here do?

For me I would accept my ability and have no interest in threads on here, if players are bothered then so be it, IMO no effect on club progress.

[Speedway]

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Yes I am at the game, the positive is as a whole Ie when players come out with the Hibees chants etc, the barracking is selective and less clear, the support when given is far louder. What would threads on here do?

For me I would accept my ability and have no interest in threads on here, if players are bothered then so be it, IMO no effect on club progress.

Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

[Twa Cairpets]

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Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

[vahibbie]

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Are you trying to tell me that there is more positive shouting than negative at a game and that there are more psotive threads than negative threads on here and the bounce and that these things have no effect on our progress either way?

The boards are full of positive threads when things are going well
Or mibbe you would like these to be toned down as well. I mean if we can't be too critical we definitely shouldn't be jumping up and down with glee when we actually do something good.
Players have faced barracking probably since the first game paying customers walk through the gates. However they do get both ends of the spectrum, God like adulation or complete numptie, don't see how you can have one without the other.
On your "expectations" comments, I for one most certainly expect more from this team. Not all supporters are "stupid", as some were refered to on this thread. Some can look at the facilities, resources available, potential quality of squad etc...etc...and make a reasoned estimate of how their team will do.
I, like many on here estimated decent Cup runs and 3rd or 4th in the league.
Obviously I wasn't there last night but I did watch it live and believe me there was barracking aplenty. Of course being long distance it wouldn't have effected anyone's performance

[Speedway]

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Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

Life's not like that though is it.

Going by your line of reasoning, it's going to make no difference on performance if Yogi and Rice berate the players every day in training for the next few months than it would if they are slanted towards positive reinforcement?

Have a day off.

Matchday crowds can have a similar effect on individual psyche, as can internet messageboards. Fabian Yantorno is a good recent case study of this in terms of what happened to him last year.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Och don't be so silly.

This is a fatuous argument. Football is a very individual employment, and not one single professional hasnt a pretty good idea of what is involved when they get into the job. 50% of the time they have the vast majority of supporters giving them dogs (thats the opposition fans at away games, not ER by the way), and you dont see the poor sensitive wee souls withering. If it was youth football, aye, fine, it might have an effect, but this is high standard professional football.

What are fans meant to do when a player makes a ricket and gives away a ball that the opposition score from? Maintain a dignified silence or quietly say "dont worry old chap, it'll be fine next time"

Do we not score an own goal by doing the opposing teams work for them?
I think the contest is tied with opposing views pretty much as they were.
I accept that attitudes and culture is the most difficult thing to change in anything.

I dont think anyone is suggesting supporting without criticism. It is the incessant slaughtering of players that some folks get mixed up in.

As to whether this is good for the players or not you just need to listen to the comments of the younger supporters when they hear this.

[joe breezy]

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Barracking of players I agree is almost always counter-productive. I dont think it is any worse at ER than anywhere else. In Scotland alone, without too much thought, I offer you: Elliot at Hearts, Adam at Rangers, Donatti at Celtic, McBride at Falkirk as examples of players who get/got it tight from their own fans.

If the team play well, they get supported and cheered. If they dont, they get heckled. Surely that is the top and bottom of it.

Your "proof" about how we re viewed is as un-verifiable as any collection of anecdotal evidence I may care to offer to the contrary, so its pointless continuing that debate (Although I still think you're wrong).

Yes to blame it on the fans due to expectations is nonsense.

Our fans could be louder though, Easter Road is not an intimidating ground to come to, unless you were an opposition casual in the 80s, but for opposition players it must be almost like playing at home.

With regards to expectations I used to go to Thistle games as a boy and their fans shout as much at their players and certainly used to have high expectations, I think most fans do.
Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United all expect to be 3rd and win something now and then, that's not the fans fault.

If professional sports employees can't handle this pressure they shouldn't take the job.

[Captain Trips]

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Okay, so if I come to your place of work, stand about 50 yards away from your desk, scream at you each day for being 'a ******* disgrace' so that everyone can hear and tell you how that last piece of work was 'Pish' and then when that was done, go onto your work's website forum and engage everyone including people you know on how crap and inept you are, that you are a wage thief, alcoholic etc and do that more days than not, 12 months later, you are telling me that it would have had little if any effect on your psyche. Yes?

Why focus on that? there are 10,000 fans in ground and some shout at me, big deal. What of the 1000s who clap the pass and the goal?

[Spike Mandela]

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Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

Our U-19's swept the board last year but we have really only regularly played one of them whilst Motherwell seem to be thriving by playing a large chunk of their U-19's.

Should we be be promoting more of our youth??