Gannon at Motherwell - Hughes at Hibs

[Speedway]

Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

[Captain Trips]

I would say if the club is going to be run well off the park which I would say it has then the point in that is we must expect that to transend, if we were in mountains of debt selling off players asap all the time then last night would be the norm.

We hold out now for a bit more in fees we get more for our players we are paying a bit more in wage the expectation has to be pushing for cups and 3rd that surely is the point in the club being run well.

I take the lead from the players we buy and the club being run well has allowed us a few bits of quality, we are not mediocre as far as running the club so we shouldnt be thinking same on it.

Outside the OF we are as big as any other club really, couple that with we are by far the best run in terms of resourcing money why should we be thinking anything other than high SPL and cup runs.

[Wellfan1984]

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

[euro Hibby]

I think its down to history. We have been a nearly team on many occasions but in the end our achievements remain well short of expectations.

We have a past of good footballing teams which have for economic reasons all been dismantled too early.

Our need for success grows like frustration. Managers don't last long at Easter road so there is little continuity , selling players and changing managers.

We should always be third or fourth in the league because of our size and because this year in partcicular we have invested more in players outside the OF.

We need a season to build and learn. Losing is never enjoyable but given the two games it was better to take 3 points in the league than win the cup game.

The board is over the top in good and bad but thats because we are fans, easily blinded by hope and a better future.....

[FrankDiscussion]

Speedway, are you deliberately contradicting yourself? My first reaction was "away and bile yer heid" but I'll try to be more reasoned.

Motherwell's expectations are low because they've always been pish, historically, since that's the theme you've chosen. Hibs on the other hand are a ****ing massive club in Scotland with genuine tradition and history, so the fans are right to want for (similar to expect but not exactly the same) glory.

How can fans' expectations have anything at all to do with failure? Expectation of fans pushes a team on, and if the players can't handle that "pressure", then they're not the players we want.

You ask why we get so high, then so low. Well, if we're all going to be stoic about football, then why don't we just give up watching it? Why do you continue to watch if it's all such a foregone conclusion that we're mediocre?

Honestly, Motherwell... What a pish example. Perhaps you could have used a better one, like Atletico Madrid. A team who are just as famous as the other two, have some tradition but because of poor investment and pish stewardship find themselves at the arseend of the table with their fans ****ting it, despite having 3 of the best attackers in world football. Not a direct comparison to Hibs, but a sensible observer will note the parallels.

Now away and think about what you've done.

[number 27]

Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.

[Captain Trips]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

We are as I said fan wise roughly the same as any other club outwith OF, so why should I think or anyone think we should be top of that tree?

The point is I think we should as we are run with that in mind, we have been for the last few years, I have been raging at times but I see the fruits of how well we have been run, the point in this, is to make sure that all this development off the park gives us some strengths on it thus for me anyways giving me belief we should be the best of the rest, that would surely be the point in our multi million pound academy and facilities, in our large fees we get.

When the administrators are at door I will join you but while we are moving along well, I will rightly think we have a good case for high SPL finish when we are brining in players who are not on basic wages.

No offence mate but we are not spending this money to compete with Motherwell, we are not building training facilities to rival OF to be 5th in the SPL, we in this current situation have stolen a march on many clubs, as I said the fruits of the KT, SB deals etc will come through. I am not saying we are here to go for OF but the club is with its regime now giving me the thoughts damn right we should be the best of rest, its now down to the manager and players.

[Twa Cairpets]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

This is one of the most error-strewn, inaccurate, pointless posts I have seen here in along time.

1) It has been a noticable feature of the boards this season that anyone who starts trumpeting our potential is generally given a warning shot across the bows by more sane heads. I cant think of anyone who has posted that we have a natural right to win everything because "we are the famous hibees". Utter fallacy.

2) "If you look at the Motherwell messageboards ... you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low." Which would you prefer - a bit of positivity, a bit of honesty, a bit of hope, a few big names in the team, decent crowds, or being Motherwell? I know which I'd prefer. This one paragraph is, in a post of mostly arrant nonsense, the single biggest load of tripe.

3) Reactions to defeat: We lost poorly last night - and listening to Hughes afterwards, he utterly recognised that. Its disappointing to lose, and any result - good or bad - will bring out knee jerk reactions. thats partly why football is interesting. I find the negativity after such defeats startlingly uninformed and thoughtless, but next week it'll be something different.

For what its worth, thinking about this last night going home, I think the trauma of Mixus reign has had a deep effect on the Hibs support. The lack of atmosphere is like the Blobby era - all hope and enjoyment was sucked out of the fans like some kind of jambo-biased dementor, and it'll take a period of time for everyone to fall back in love with Hibs. The morale is fragile at the moment, and setbacks really hurt, but compared to where we were at the end of last season, last night notwithstanding, I think we're on the right track.

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Speedway, are you deliberately contradicting yourself? My first reaction was "away and bile yer heid" but I'll try to be more reasoned.

Cheers

Motherwell's expectations are low because they've always been pish, historically, since that's the theme you've chosen. Hibs on the other hand are a ****ing massive club in Scotland with genuine tradition and history, so the fans are right to want for (similar to expect but not exactly the same) glory.

Average of 13,000 fans? Massive club my erchie. What genuine tradition, what history?

How can fans' expectations have anything at all to do with failure? Expectation of fans pushes a team on, and if the players can't handle that "pressure", then they're not the players we want.

What if they are the only players we can afford with the massive support and continual operating losses that we've got?

You ask why we get so high, then so low. Well, if we're all going to be stoic about football, then why don't we just give up watching it? Why do you continue to watch if it's all such a foregone conclusion that we're mediocre?

Football success, is results, full stop. Hibs are more than a football team to me. I've long since given up being fussed about poor results though. When have we ever shown that we're capable of more on a regular basis. Surely we saw last night coming?

Honestly, Motherwell... What a pish example. Perhaps you could have used a better one, like Atletico Madrid. A team who are just as famous as the other two, have some tradition but because of poor investment and pish stewardship find themselves at the arseend of the table with their fans ****ting it, despite having 3 of the best attackers in world football. Not a direct comparison to Hibs, but a sensible observer will note the parallels.

Now you're the one having a laugh based on that particular comment.

Now away and think about what you've done.

Pointed out the bi-polar nature of our supporters having a negative effect on younger fans and player psychology?

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.

And yet the next set of player sthat will replace them will do the same, just like the last set of players did, and the set before that.

Why is that, do you think?

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is one of the most error-strewn, inaccurate, pointless posts I have seen here in along time.

Thank you.

1) It has been a noticable feature of the boards this season that anyone who starts trumpeting our potential is generally given a warning shot across the bows by more sane heads. I cant think of anyone who has posted that we have a natural right to win everything because "we are the famous hibees". Utter fallacy.

Would you like the list PM'd to you?

2) "If you look at the Motherwell messageboards ... you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low." Which would you prefer - a bit of positivity, a bit of honesty, a bit of hope, a few big names in the team, decent crowds, or being Motherwell? I know which I'd prefer. This one paragraph is, in a post of mostly arrant nonsense, the single biggest load of tripe.

I prefer to be the one that gets better results and gets into Europe without the players knowing that the first misplaced pass will have the bile flowing. Decent crowds, I must have missed those?

3) Reactions to defeat: We lost poorly last night - and listening to Hughes afterwards, he utterly recognised that. Its disappointing to lose, and any result - good or bad - will bring out knee jerk reactions. thats partly why football is interesting. I find the negativity after such defeats startlingly uninformed and thoughtless, but next week it'll be something different.

Do you find it tedious that we never learn from it?

For what its worth, thinking about this last night going home, I think the trauma of Mixus reign has had a deep effect on the Hibs support. The lack of atmosphere is like the Blobby era - all hope and enjoyment was sucked out of the fans like some kind of jambo-biased dementor, and it'll take a period of time for everyone to fall back in love with Hibs. The morale is fragile at the moment, and setbacks really hurt, but compared to where we were at the end of last season, last night notwithstanding, I think we're on the right track.

Wouldn't disagree with your last paragraph, broadly speaking.

[Future17]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is

That's just crazy talk.....Real will never qualify for the Champions League next season! Or did you mean Athletico?

[Wellfan1984]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's just crazy talk.....Real will never qualify for the Champions League next season! Or did you mean Athletico?

Well I would accept that. Don't think we've ever played Atletico but we've already humped Real in our history.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

Interesting question. Are we too quick to get on the teams back when the chips are down against so called lesser teams? Are we self-defeating?

And taking this further, since the common factor throughout the years is the fans you are also asking whether we in part responsible for not winning the Scottish Cup?

Whilst fans cant pull off saves, kick the ball into the net we can affect confidence. All things being equal (skill, experience, fitness etc.) the psychological factors can make the difference. Maybe I'm just getting old but we seem to dish out a fair bit more stick than when I first attended ER back in 1987. Even if it has remained the same I think you'll find that the average age team of the team has come down drastically.

So what we are dealing with now is raw, relatively inexperienced players (and sometimes managers) and I think this is the crux of the matter. They are not seasoned Pros. Some of them clearly still arent even anywhere near being "men".

So getting on their backs is counter productive IMO. And outright as for _abuse_ of Hibs players - if thats your thing then perhaps your better off in the away end.

Maybe if we always felt like the underdog we'd be more supportive, confidence would grow from the support and you have a virtuous cycle. Unfortunately we've had the rug pulled from us on a fairly regular basis so people get frustrated. This then becomes a vicious cycle so mishaps are not easily put behind us - were just waiting for another GK incident, a manager prove he was the wrong choice.

We are where we are and IMO need a radical shake up. It will remain to be seen whether the rhetoric and actions of Yogi allied to his tactics can bring this about. If it doesn't I dont think it will be for the lack of effort or trying. As ever as supporters we have out part to play too. We'll see in due course.

GGTTH.

[Woody1985]

Not read the thread other than OP so don't know if this has been posted.

Could it be that the players buy into the same expectation as the fans and then think that it's just a formallity for 3rd and decent cup runs?

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Interesting question. Are we too quick to get on the teams back when the chips are down against so called lesser teams? Are we self-defeating?

And taking this further, since the common factor throughout the years is the fans you are also asking whether we in part responsible for not winning the Scottish Cup?

Whilst fans cant pull off saves, kick the ball into the net we can affect confidence. All things being equal (skill, experience, fitness etc.) the psychological factors can make the difference. Maybe I'm just getting old but we seem to dish out a fair bit more stick than when I first attended ER back in 1987. Even if it has remained the same I think you'll find that the average age team of the team has come down drastically.

So what we are dealing with now is raw, relatively inexperienced players (and sometimes managers) and I think this is the crux of the matter. They are not seasoned Pros. Some of them clearly still arent even anywhere near being "men".

So getting on their backs is counter productive IMO. And outright as for _abuse_ of Hibs players - if thats your thing then perhaps your better off in the away end.

Maybe if we always felt like the underdog we'd be more supportive, confidence would grow from the support and you have a virtuous cycle. Unfortunately we've had the rug pulled from us on a fairly regular basis so people get frustrated. This then becomes a vicious cycle so mishaps are not easily put behind us - were just waiting for another GK incident, a manager prove he was the wrong choice.

We are where we are and IMO need a radical shake up. It will remain to be seen whether the rhetoric and actions of Yogi allied to his tactics can bring this about. If it doesn't I dont think it will be for the lack of effort or trying. As ever as supporters we have out part to play too. We'll see in due course.

GGTTH.

Thank you, that is the discussion I was looking for and that was the question I was driving at.

From what I understand, Yogi is looking to implement a change in training that will involve the players knowing Saturday's team on a Wednesday and injuries aside, the first XI will then train together whilst the rest go off seperately.

I wonder if this will help the seige and underdog mentality that will help them deal with the lack of support in the stands in terms of number and positive reinforcement.

[stubru59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Defenders who can''t defend.

Midfielders who can't tackle or pass.

Goalkeepers who constantly spill shots.

Strikers who don't score enough.

I'll be bhuggered if I'm taking the blame for that.

And managers who wont change the bleeding obvious.

I would need more than a message board to write about the shortcomings fans at ER have had to put with.

We were comprehensively outplayed and outfought by a newly promoted side who probably have less than half the resources we have at our disposal.

If that's not something worth having a moan about, I don't know what is.

[sean]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

I don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.

At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

i dont understand how the fans can determine how players play on a week to week basis.

everyone has expectations of there football clubs, motherwell i am sure do to,whether it be to stay in the league or top claim top 6.its an expectation,still not a big one but an expectation all the same.

If i was another support of another SPL club i would look at hibs as a club and as a sqaud and i would suggest that we do infact have a sqaud that should be 3/4 in the SPL. we are weak in some areas,but lets face it most clubs would bight there hand of for our strikers.

we are a big scottish football club,not big in the greater scheme of things but still in scotland with the way are club is run and with the players we have the supporters have every right to hope we finish 3/4.

if only the game was played on paper....

[Posh Swanny]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I would say if the club is going to be run well off the park which I would say it has then the point in that is we must expect that to transend, if we were in mountains of debt selling off players asap all the time then last night would be the norm.

We hold out now for a bit more in fees we get more for our players we are paying a bit more in wage the expectation has to be pushing for cups and 3rd that surely is the point in the club being run well.

I take the lead from the players we buy and the club being run well has allowed us a few bits of quality, we are not mediocre as far as running the club so we shouldnt be thinking same on it.

Outside the OF we are as big as any other club really, couple that with we are by far the best run in terms of resourcing money why should we be thinking anything other than high SPL and cup runs.

Good post. I'm going to save it and re-produce a version of it when the "why do England fans have such high expectations despite winning **** all for 40 years" debate begins in early December.

[Twa Cairpets]

Speedway

I dont think there are any fans who follow a team with any pretension towards success who are not monumentally fickle.

Rangers/Celtic "Only ever 2 games away from a crisis" is a favourite tabloid standby
Hearts: A depressing mix of delusion and self-loathing
Aberdeen: Witch-hunt central
Dundee Utd: The minute a run goes against them crowds halve

Other than that, the SPL doesnt really have any team that could fairly expect through income/gate/fan-base to be consistently top six and have a cup run or two.

In Scottish terms, Hibs are a big club, and that is pretty indisputable. The knee jerks of fans are an emotional reation rather than reasoned one.

Trust me - I sit near the the most uninformed group of human stupidity on earth, and hear most of it on match days. Its not their fault they are much stoopid, and no amount of reason or message boarding will change that.

That said, I take in a lot of games in England, and I absolutely believe that the lower placed the team is in terms of reasonable expectation, the more tolerant of poor football they are. What that says about football fans I dont know.

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

i dont understand how the fans can determine how players play on a week to week basis.

everyone has expectations of there football clubs, motherwell i am sure do to,whether it be to stay in the league or top claim top 6.its an expectation,still not a big one but an expectation all the same.

If i was another support of another SPL club i would look at hibs as a club and as a sqaud and i would suggest that we do infact have a sqaud that should be 3/4 in the SPL. we are weak in some areas,but lets face it most clubs would bight there hand of for our strikers.

we are a big scottish football club,not big in the greater scheme of things but still in scotland with the way are club is run and with the players we have the supporters have every right to hope we finish 3/4.

if only the game was played on paper....

I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

[Big Frank]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Question: Why is a relatively inexperienced manager with no money and little support currently matching Hibs in the league and getting further than us in the cup?

Answer: If you look at the Motherwell messageboards (whilst listening to the tumbleweeds blow by) you can see that there's no big talk from the gaffer and no big talk from the fans. There are no big names in the team and no big crowds in the stands. Expectations are low.


Yip. You're right. Motherwell (below us in the league) and a game up in the league cup are in this position because their fans and board have lower expectations than Hibernian's. A few hyper Hibbys thinking we are going to go far on the signings so far, are responsible.

If you read the Hibs boards (poor you) you'll see a vastly populated community of people who think that we should win every game bar the OF matches (which we should at least draw apparently). We have the best side, easily capable of third until they get beat, after which they automatically become the most inept and underperforming players that association football has ever witnessed.

Fans are fickle Speedway. At every single club in the world. Nothing new! There is nothing wrong with Hibernian fans wishing the club well and making a fair assessment of the resources Hibernian have at their disposal, that with the right application we can pump teams such as your motherwells, arabs, sheep etc. There is nothing wrong with thinking that Hibernian should go out and try to win every game they play.

So the expectations remain high becuse of this 'We're the famous Hibees' crap, the talk remains big and the let downs remain big.


We are the famous Hibees Speedway Get over it.

Why do the fans not see Hibs for what we actually are, on a consistent basis; and why so much bile and venom on this board when results like last night's have been the norm and will always be the norm until the far off fantasy day when huge money gets invested?

There is so much "bile and venom" because there is a genuine LOVE for Hibernian on this and other Hibernian boards. There are many many factors why Hibernian are in the state they are in. When Hibernian (just like the yams) are successful, really successful, they are a big, big attraction. Whether we like it or not, in such a small country, only the edinburgh clubs are a threat to the Glasgow clubs. They know this

I .don't understand the disappointment, I don't understand the expectation, I don't get why people think we're a big club, I don't get why people think that certain players will ever come good and I don't get why there's a need to hurt ourselves whinging about it.

You don't understand the disappointment on a Hibs board after last nights debacle?. You don't understand people being genuinely being worried/angry/happy about the team they love?. Hibernian ARE an big club Speedway. In world terms ? Nope. Nationally? Abso-****in-lutely At this precise moment - every team outside Glasgow would love to be in Hibernians shoes

Not when you've supported this club anywhere upwards of 10 years.

30 years for me Speedway, and yes I'm still bitterly disappointed and unhappy at last nights result.

Perhaps Motherwell's current form holds some answers but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts.
At Easter Road this season we have a new manager, new players, more investment but the same old Hibs. Why?

Starting point for discussion, are the fans largely culpable for Hibs constant underachievement?

You state "Hibs constant underachievent". With the logic in your post, how are we underachieving, given theat we're just a wee club etc etc. Any loss on the park, no matter over how many years, is nowt to do with the fans.

[Captain Trips]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

I dont think we are any worse than other clubs support reguarding stick, I have never seen players nervous due to it, I have seen them nervous due to being p1sh though, players are only desperate to leave due to money not the support. In terms of SPL we are a big club and small clubs dont spend the likes we have at East Mains to be losing to SJ and being happy at top 6.

The ambitions with the investment is and should be, best of the rest.

If no OF I would be looking at Hibs to be winning SPL and being right up there.

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Speedway

I dont think there are any fans who follow a team with any pretension towards success who are not monumentally fickle.

Rangers/Celtic "Only ever 2 games away from a crisis" is a favourite tabloid standby
Hearts: A depressing mix of delusion and self-loathing
Aberdeen: Witch-hunt central
Dundee Utd: The minute a run goes against them crowds halve

Other than that, the SPL doesnt really have any team that could fairly expect through income/gate/fan-base to be consistently top six and have a cup run or two.

In Scottish terms, Hibs are a big club, and that is pretty indisputable. The knee jerks of fans are an emotional reation rather than reasoned one.

Trust me - I sit near the the most uninformed group of human stupidity on earth, and hear most of it on match days. Its not their fault they are much stoopid, and no amount of reason or message boarding will change that.

That said, I take in a lot of games in England, and I absolutely believe that the lower placed the team is in terms of reasonable expectation, the more tolerant of poor football they are. What that says about football fans I dont know.

That's interesting and I think that you've proved your own point by posting this very reasonable post just a few minutes after replying to another of my posts by using terms such as 'nonsense' and 'single biggest load of tripe' which whilst it may be true is still unhelpful.

I also completely agree with your point that football fans react emotionally rather than with logic and reason. This is the part I've grown tired of.

Hibs represents to me, much more than 11 players in a team. I enjoy my involvment with the club for many reasons, including the game on a Saturday.

I no longer see a need to slit my throat and the throats of all Hibs employees when we get shafted and I think that it is this emotional reaction which hinders us from progressing because there's no doubt in my mind that the feeling in the stands finds it's way onto the pitch.

So when I read the knee jerk idiocy that is posted here after a defeat, I get partly bored and partly depressed that we seem to be an amnesiac fan base who've forgotten that results like this are exactly what Hibs do and will always do unless there is uninterrupted postive support coming from the stands and/or huge money is being invested.

Neither scenario is likely so these results, performances and standard of players can be expected to continue ad infinitum.

That's not accepting medicority, that's acknowledging that for our part, we're doing nothing to deserve anything other than mediocrity.

[sean]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't disagree with those 'on paper' points Sean.

What is interesting is that only the fans view us as a big club generally speaking.

I think we are self defeating in that because we are so quick to get on the backs of the players including on line and be generally negative about most aspects of the club.

This then ensures that we have a nervous team making mistakes, that any genuine talent is desperate to leave and our 'big club' mentality only leads to the inevitable disappointment, which leads to more negativity.

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, which has been mentioned by another poster today.

i appreciate with what you are getting at.

but to be honest what football fans dont get on players backs?? if we or any other club has a ten game winning streak no one gets on the back of the players.

if its a ten game losing streak the fans get on the players backs...that happens at every club, every job and most aspects of life..if you aint doing something the way its expected you get a ticking off.

although i dont post all the time on here, some of the nonsense thats talked does make me laugh,we do have a very fickle set of fans i do agree with you there.

[sean]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Did you actually look on the Motherwell Forum before you posted that. We're already planning our trip to Madrid for the Champions League - if that's not expectation I don't know what is

As for the jist of your post I think you're prity spot on. Hibs and every other "City" Club outside the Old Firm need to realise, well you're naw a big club, certainly naw bigger anymore than the major town clubs (ala Motherwell when it comes to the season. Look at Aberdeen for example, and laugh at McGhee has he left as he was losing our stars, but since when has that ever caused Motherwell or a half decent manager problems at Motherwell.

Not to mention, we have the better manager who has a proven record of playing football with results and not the media bull that Hughes was some Brazilesqu playing Manager of Falkirk, nor have we signed Falkirk's midfield which was woeful last season...

Bottom line, Motherwell fans expected anything between 4th and 11th would do this season - some expected relegation but that was never ever going to happen with Falkirk, Hamilton and St Johnstone in the league while Hibs fans I guess expected 3rd or 4th which lets be honest your history in the SPL shows you have as much right as about 4 or 5 other clubs to have so yes fans can probably take some blame...

you cannot suggest that motherwell FC are bigger than Hibernian FC?
hibs is a bigger football club in every aspect.

That doesnt give us a god given right to beat motherwell and finish higher in the league than them, but hibs aberdeen and hearts are bigger than the rest of the clubs in the SPL in everyway bar rangers and celtic

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You state "Hibs constant underachievent". With the logic in your post, how are we underachieving, given theat we're just a wee club etc etc. Any loss on the park, no matter over how many years, is nowt to do with the fans.

I disagree with most of your post Big Frank. The only thing we're famous for, is constantly underachieving.

Love as I understand it, has no room for Bile and Venom. That would be 'Love/Hate'.

Negativity in the stands translates onto the pitch and is not entirely liable of course, but also does nothing to assist.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with wishing the club well, it's when it doesn't go well that the fans are the first to attack. That's not 'Love'.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I dont think we are any worse than other clubs support reguarding stick, I have never seen players nervous due to it, I have seen them nervous due to being p1sh though, players are only desperate to leave due to money not the support. In terms of SPL we are a big club and small clubs dont spend the likes we have at East Mains to be losing to SJ and being happy at top 6.

The ambitions with the investment is and should be, best of the rest.

If no OF I would be looking at Hibs to be winning SPL and being right up there.

Whittaker and Murphy are two examples of players who thought the support were a bunch of ***** regardless of the spin in the press. Money of course was the prime motivator.

I've also seen Murray nervous many times as a match wore on, is this due to him being Pish or support getting on his back.

When Hogg came over to the east stand last season to have a word after getting constant abuse, was he making mistakes solely down to ineptitude or was the barracking from his own 'supporters' getting to him.

Some time ago there was a thread on here asking why fans of other SPL clubs hated Hibs so much. It's certainly not down to jealously of sporting performance, is it?

[Captain Trips]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's interesting and I think that you've proved your own point by posting this very reasonable post just a few minutes after replying to another of my posts by using terms such as 'nonsense' and 'single biggest load of tripe' which whilst it may be true is still unhelpful.

I also completely agree with your point that football fans react emotionally rather than with logic and reason. This is the part I've grown tired of.

Hibs represents to me, much more than 11 players in a team. I enjoy my involvment with the club for many reasons, including the game on a Saturday.

I no longer see a need to slit my throat and the throats of all Hibs employees when we get shafted and I think that it is this emotional reaction which hinders us from progressing because there's no doubt in my mind that the feeling in the stands finds it's way onto the pitch.

So when I read the knee jerk idiocy that is posted here after a defeat, I get partly bored and partly depressed that we seem to be an amnesiac fan base who've forgotten that results like this are exactly what Hibs do and will always do unless there is uninterrupted postive support coming from the stands and/or huge money is being invested.

Neither scenario is likely so these results, performances and standard of players can be expected to continue ad infinitum.

That's not accepting medicority, that's acknowledging that for our part, we're doing nothing to deserve anything other than mediocrity.

I disagree with you, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts have a similar ave attendance, there is then a drop off that in turn should ensure that if every club is run as well the 3 of us should be fighting for 3rd.

Now crowds alone are only 1 factor each club has a chairmen and investors, at this juncture Hibs are miles ahead of Aberdeen on this front and the other teams just shouldnt be in question as there attendance is what 4-5k less than ours.

They have done well based on Eddie Thompson doing them a good turn so thats why they are up there so he is like that big investor who comes in and no matter size of club they do well as have money, them aside no other clubs have money so why should we be in with them? When we have made strides to improving club.

We are not training in the park and we are not paying peanuts to a good few players and we are well run, this all factored in gives many of us the right to think we are and should be getting in for 3rd and beating SJ at home in the cup. Most of the SPL is in tons of debt paying lower wages and not paying fees for players with smaller crowds so what are we to expect?

[Speedway]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

i appreciate with what you are getting at.

but to be honest what football fans dont get on players backs?? if we or any other club has a ten game winning streak no one gets on the back of the players.

if its a ten game losing streak the fans get on the players backs...that happens at every club, every job and most aspects of life..if you aint doing something the way its expected you get a ticking off.

although i dont post all the time on here, some of the nonsense thats talked does make me laugh,we do have a very fickle set of fans i do agree with you there.

Of course, but Hibs are up there in terms and speed and extent of attack. This is the club with the fans who had a thread on their main messageboard saying 'Was This The Worst 3-0 Win Ever'

[sean]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Of course, but Hibs are up there in terms and speed and extent of attack. This is the club with the fans who had a thread on their main messageboard saying 'Was This The Worst 3-0 Win Ever'

i agree we can be fickle like i said..and also like i said some of the threads are awful.

but if players feel under pressure from the stands maybe they shouldnt play football..as every clubs fans expect things of players and if they dont come up trumps they know they will get it in the neck.

playing football myself people give you stick/abuse all the time..its up to the player to change people's perceptions.

[Captain Trips]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I disagree with most of your post Big Frank. The only thing we're famous for, is constantly underachieving.

Love as I understand it, has no room for Bile and Venom. That would be 'Love/Hate'.

Negativity in the stands translates onto the pitch and is not entirely liable of course, but also does nothing to assist.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with wishing the club well, it's when it doesn't go well that the fans are the first to attack. That's not 'Love'.



Whittaker and Murphy are two examples of players who thought the support were a bunch of ***** regardless of the spin in the press. Money of course was the prime motivator.

I've also seen Murray nervous many times as a match wore on, is this due to him being Pish or support getting on his back.

When Hogg came over to the east stand last season to have a word after getting constant abuse, was he making mistakes solely down to ineptitude or was the barracking from his own 'supporters' getting to him.

Some time ago there was a thread on here asking why fans of other SPL clubs hated Hibs so much. It's certainly not down to jealously of sporting performance, is it?

Still dont agree with you on the fans attitude, if Murray is nervous he needs to think about his own ability, Murray has been treated well on most occasions so if nervous thats down to him. It is of course easy for me to say the fans made me play poor rather than look at myself.

I dont think Hibs are hated any more than other clubs.