£3m in, £0 out, and the most expensive Board in the league...

[blackpoolhibs]

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And even older Jim Blair

Christ i'd forgotten about him. The word hopeless was invented for him.


Christ we have signed some *****.

[hibees_green]

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It's not all down to the money though, is it? .....

I actually do think the decline over the last 2 seasons is partly due to lack of invetsment in the squad.

I also accept that the board is partly responsible for your list but similarly they are partly responsible for the failure (IMHO) over the last 2 seasons.

I could actually create a list that reads equally negative over the last 5-10 years.

The main point is that many ain't going back if the playing side doesn't improve.

The board needs to make that happen and I do not believe it will happen unless there is a change in strategy.

Only my opinion like.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I actually do think the decline over the last 2 seasons is partly due to lack of invetsment in the squad.

I also accept that the board is partly responsible for your list but similarly they are partly responsible for the failure (IMHO) over the last 2 seasons.

I could actually create a list that reads equally negative over the last 5-10 years.

The main point is that many ain't going back if the playing side doesn't improve.

The board needs to make that happen and I do not believe it will happen unless there is a change in strategy.

Only my opinion like.

Go on then . I'm sure you could, just interested to see how it would read and how realistic any criticisms would be. Whether the things you see as negative could have been avoided, and if so how.....that sort of thing

You talk about a change in strategy. What do you propose?

[hibees_green]

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Go on then . I'm sure you could, just interested to see how it would read and how realistic any criticisms would be. Whether the things you see as negative could have been avoided, and if so how.....that sort of thing

You talk about a change in strategy. What do you propose?

Firstly I'm not that excited about some of your list. It's not what I go to see hibs for and if we were successful on the park would anyone really care about it? i.e. a modern stadium & a top class training centre. I actually worry that our training centre is over cooked and will incurr excessive operational costs going forward that we could well do without.

But for those things that I do care about:

Consecutive top 6 finishes for the past however many seasons

Managed to finish above sixth 3 times in ten years.

Some European football

Played 2 meaningful European games in 10 years and failed to progress in either.

Cups

Hampden against Hearts, Ayr, Dunfermline & Livi too name but a few. (Direct result of lack of investment in squad/manager imho).

Increase in spend on player wages year on year

A manager walking out due to lack of funds despite huge player sale income. Maybe a better real world indicator that statement of accounts.

An ability to hold onto our better players while the manager needs them.

A turnover of over 40 players in 2 years all of which were involved in 1st team action a some point.

As far as strategy I'd like to see a gaurantee that some agreed percentage of player sale income (25%?) going directly into the playing budget over and above ticket money. In essence evidence of a short to medium term plan as well as a long term one.

[new malkyhib]

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Firstly I'm not that excited about some of your list. It's not what I go to see hibs for and if we were successful on the park would anyone really care about it? i.e. a modern stadium & a top class training centre. I actually worry that our training centre is over cooked and will incurr excessive operational costs going forward that we could well do without.

But for those things that I do care about:

Consecutive top 6 finishes for the past however many seasons

Managed to finish above sixth 3 times in ten years.

Some European football

Played 2 meaningful European games in 10 years and failed to progress in either.

Cups

Hampden against Hearts, Ayr, Dunfermline & Livi too name but a few. (Direct result of lack of investment in squad/manager imho).

Increase in spend on player wages year on year

A manager walking out due to lack of funds despite huge player sale income. Maybe a better real world indicator that statement of accounts.

An ability to hold onto our better players while the manager needs them.

A turnover of over 40 players in 2 years all of which were involved in 1st team action a some point.

As far as strategy I'd like to see a gaurantee that some agreed percentage of player sale income (25%?) going directly into the playing budget over and above ticket money. In essence evidence of a short to medium term plan as well as a long term one.

Far too ambitious by half though...

[sahib]

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And even older Jim Blair

Jim Blair had a lovely lasy left peg. Time dims the memory but I think Blair had more football about him than Nish.

[Spike Mandela]

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It's not all down to the money though, is it? We've spent more than Mowbray had over the last few seasons without seeing as good a brand of football as we did there.

We all want to see a winning team on the pitch, playing great football. I doubt that there is one single person sitting thinking 'Christ, I hope we don't sign anyone as it'll scunner the books' - however I think a large number of people can recognise that for all the criticism the board take, they have delivered hugely significant things for the club -

A modern stadium (hopefully soon to be completed)
A top class training centre
Consecutive top 6 finishes for the past however many seasons
Some European football
A CIS Cup win
Numerous Scottish Cup semi-finals over the last few years
A highly successful youth set up
Increase in spend on player wages year on year (according to the accounts, IIRC)
Increase in spend year on year on player fees
An ability to hold onto our better players while the manager needs them (Boozy, Fletcher, and Jones all could have been cashed in on far earlier than we did, in fact we let Boozy go for nothing specifically because the manager wanted him longer).

That's a more than decent return from the board, IMHO - and we'll see how things go under Yogi. Having listened to him talking in depth about what he wants to achieve at the club, I'm confident that we'll see more of the spectacular stuff on the pitch sooner rather than later.

I'm not saying we don't need to bring players in - we do, and I'm confident we will, because the board have shown repeatedly over the past few seasons that they will do what they can to support the manager.

This is the crucial barometer for me.

Qualified for Europe 3 times in the entire 19/20 year tenure of the Farmer/Petrie regime and only one of those based on League position.

Despite all the other undoubted positives acheived listed above this is where I feel Hibs fans have been short changed.

A period of consistent qualification for Europe via league position is the next target we need to acheive in my book although I suspect the board's target is a fourth stand.

[Ray_]

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Jim Blair had a lovely lasy left peg. Time dims the memory but I think Blair had more football about him than Nish.

I know he scored two against Rangers & I wouldn't argue against the latter one way or the other, but back then he cost a massive 45k, which was more than half we got for the terrific player he was replacing, Peter Cormack.

Cliché time, at the end of the day Jim Blair was a huddy & a lot of his team mates at that time became what is known as the TT's, he was hopelessly out of his class with that company. I think he also got two against Malmo, in the 6-0 fairs cup win & apart from one other goal I believe that was the total he got in the season he spent at the club, I think we managed to get 18k back off ST Mirren, the following close season.

Ironically, we paid more for Blair from ST Mirren than Leeds did for Gordon McQueen & centre half was a real problem position throughout the seventies, Leeds also paid 30k for Joe Jordan around that time

[BEEJ]

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But for those things that I do care about:

Consecutive top 6 finishes for the past however many seasons

Managed to finish above sixth 3 times in ten years.

Some European football

Played 2 meaningful European games in 10 years and failed to progress in either.

Those are the most telling indicators that we have failed to punch our weight for some considerable time now.

That's why I find irksome the references to expectations of a 3rd / 4th place SPL finish being hopelessly optimistic / unrealistic in the light of recent club history; many seem to be using a poor benchmark against which to measure our expectation of achievement.

The last 20 years should not become the norm for this club - we should expect better.

Hopefully that begins from this season!

[matty_f]

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This is the crucial barometer for me.

Qualified for Europe 3 times in the entire 19/20 year tenure of the Farmer/Petrie regime and only one of those based on League position.

Despite all the other undoubted positives acheived listed above this is where I feel Hibs fans have been short changed.

A period of consistent qualification for Europe via league position is the next target we need to acheive in my book although I suspect the board's target is a fourth stand.

I definitely think we should be targeting consistent European qualification now - we've got ourselves into a position where we should be stronger than most of our peers now.

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Those are the most telling indicators that we have failed to punch our weight for some considerable time now.

That's why I find irksome the references to expectations of a 3rd / 4th place SPL finish being hopelessly optimistic / unrealistic in the light of recent club history; many seem to be using a poor benchmark against which to measure our expectation of achievement.

The last 20 years should not become the norm for this club - we should expect better.

Hopefully that begins from this season!

I agree with that, too - the last 20 years have put us in a position where we have gone from near extinction to being a club that has almost everything in place to enjoy a real spell of relative success. We are well ahead of the likes of almost all of the SPL in terms of how we are set up, and we have already seen some tangible evidence of this in terms of not selling players at the first sniff of cash, and in most cases the 'calibre' of player we have signed has risen (i.e. from going from signing unknown young players to signing established SPL level players - admittedly this hasn't paid dividends the way we would have hoped, but that was more to do with the manager that signed them rather than anything financial).

[Phil MaGlass]

We really do have a solid footing now,everything is in place (apart from the east stand) all we need now is an investor to pump in a couple of million then were ready to go.

[matty_f]

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We really do have a solid footing now,everything is in place (apart from the east stand) all we need now is an investor to pump in a couple of million then were ready to go.

I'll do it.

[jgl07]

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This is the crucial barometer for me.

Qualified for Europe 3 times in the entire 19/20 year tenure of the Farmer/Petrie regime and only one of those based on League position.

It is actual two times out of three.

2001: Third place would have guaranteed a UEFA Cup place regardless of Hibs being cup runners up.

2005: Third place gave a place in the UEFA Cup.

[--------]

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We really do have a solid footing now,everything is in place (apart from the east stand) all we need now is an investor to pump in a couple of million then were ready to go.

We'd need a lot more than a couple of million from an outside investor.

Two million's chickenfeed these days.

if you're talking about investment in the team, it'd need to be a LOT more, and sustained over at least 5 years.

We wouldn't be competing with the rest of the SPL - we'd be competing with the lower EPL and the Championship, which means single transfers in the 5-10 million bracket and salaries in five figures each week.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Firstly I'm not that excited about some of your list. It's not what I go to see hibs for and if we were successful on the park would anyone really care about it? i.e. a modern stadium & a top class training centre. I actually worry that our training centre is over cooked and will incurr excessive operational costs going forward that we could well do without.

But for those things that I do care about:

Consecutive top 6 finishes for the past however many seasons

Managed to finish above sixth 3 times in ten years.

Some European football

Played 2 meaningful European games in 10 years and failed to progress in either.

Cups

Hampden against Hearts, Ayr, Dunfermline & Livi too name but a few. (Direct result of lack of investment in squad/manager imho).

Increase in spend on player wages year on year

A manager walking out due to lack of funds despite huge player sale income. Maybe a better real world indicator that statement of accounts.

An ability to hold onto our better players while the manager needs them.

A turnover of over 40 players in 2 years all of which were involved in 1st team action a some point.

As far as strategy I'd like to see a gaurantee that some agreed percentage of player sale income (25%?) going directly into the playing budget over and above ticket money. In essence evidence of a short to medium term plan as well as a long term one.

Haven't the Board indicated that with the completion of the East Stand they envisage any income going back into the club - the "spend a pound less than we earn" quote? That's more or less 100%, not 25%.

Couple of points around if we went public with a figure like the 25% (say this season, with the Fletcher money) -then if you were to be satisfied we were actually spending 25% we would have to announce the value of the deals, which we don't always do (or which the buying club don't always want us to do). Do we include any add-ons at the time? And wouldn't every selling club then have a great idea of how much we have to spend? And what happens when our acquisitions would cost 28% - is it okay to go above our limit? Why not 30% then? Or 35%? Or 50%? If we don't stick to it then there's no point setting a figure but I can imagine the reaction of some if we lost out on a deal because we wouldn't go a few % over...........

And does this 25% get used for transfers and signing-on fees? What about wages and bonuses over the length of the contract? If they're also included and when that money is spent, do we have to sell a good player to maintain the same standard, rather than having the capacity to fund it from within? What if we don't have someone to sell at that moment? What if they do an Andy Driver and get injured in the window? Do we then turn to the manager and say sorry, you're losing such-and-such because we can't renew his contract because we're relying on transfer money to pay it?

I think the point is that once we have finished the stadium we will be in a position to look at windfall money being used in near enough its entirety on the playing side. I don't see the benefit in committing ourselves to some sort of benchmark figure though. And if we are to try and maintain some sort of incremental gain then we have to be careful woth how we use money that isn't reasonably predictable income.

I know there are some who can't help but focus on the short-term. Looking at it longer-term though, I suppose we really started the 'incremental model' in the wake of the collapsed TV deal. We've seen ourselves go from the plunging cuts that had us in tenth place to consistent top six. In between we had two exceptional finishes under Mowbray. Unfortunately they were with players we couldn't afford to keep, either from our point of view or theirs. The bonus was that we were able to stabilise the club's finances, work towards the completion of the ground and get the training centre that Mowbray and Collins both wanted.

Next step is to raise the bar further - for me it's got to be building on consistently making the top six to achieving European qualification on a far more regular basis.

(Oh, and it wasn't my list you were unexcited about )

[hibees_green]

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Haven't the Board indicated that with the completion of the East Stand they envisage any income going back into the club - the "spend a pound less than we earn" quote? That's more or less 100%, not 25%.

I do not believe this will ever happen. In five years time I think that real world variables will mean posts of ' ah but something else came up.....' or 'ah but if it hadn't been for x, y, z...'.

As far as the 25% figure I don't really care what the figure is but some investment should be made. I'd expected that initially it would simply enable us to attract better 'bosmans'. If we couldn't afford to keep them at the end of thier contract, due to insufficient income, I'd accept that. At least we'd have tried to maintain some level of quality on the playing side.

I don't really know if my strategy is perfect but over the last 2 years something should have been done in the short term to improve the squad. A player turnover of approx 40 in 2 years, along with the performances, shows it wasn't.

In short I think the current strategy will continue and many will be happy with this. Unfortunately from my view of things it's really sad as it's resulted in me giving up my ST of 10 years and my father and his pals giving their's up after over 60 years of attending.

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(Oh, and it wasn't my list you were unexcited about )

Ooops apologies.

[RyeSloan]

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I do not believe this will ever happen. In five years time I think that real world variables will mean posts of ' ah but something else came up.....' or 'ah but if it hadn't been for x, y, z...'.

As far as the 25% figure I don't really care what the figure is but some investment should be made. I'd expected that initially it would simply enable us to attract better 'bosmans'. If we couldn't afford to keep them at the end of thier contract, due to insufficient income, I'd accept that. At least we'd have tried to maintain some level of quality on the playing side.

I don't really know if my strategy is perfect but over the last 2 years something should have been done in the short term to improve the squad. A player turnover of approx 40 in 2 years, along with the performances, shows it wasn't.

In short I think the current strategy will continue and many will be happy with this. Unfortunately from my view of things it's really sad as it's resulted in me giving up my ST of 10 years and my father and his pals giving their's up after over 60 years of attending.



Ooops apologies.

So the fact that Board supported each manager to bring in and get rid of so many players is a sign that the Board are not supporting the manager

You use the last two years as an example of how we have not 'invested'....have a look at the accounts, outside player sales we spent MORE than we could afford so player sales have been used to suppliment the managers budget.

Jeeez we can't spend what we ain't got....a lot of the transer fees received have been used to pay for money we had already spent 'investing' in the team in previous years and thankfully some was actually invested into the stadium and the training ground.

I really don't see where this extra 'investment' is going to come from without forcing up the debt yet again....any suggestions??

If by 'current strategy' you mean using player sales to invest in a fully completed modern stadium, a modern self owned training centre and ensuring managable debt then too right people will be happy with it.

It shouldn't really take much to see that when this phase is completed we WILL be in a position to use a huge portion of future sales to maybe try and attract significantly better quality of player or maybe more likely be able to hold onto future star players that wee bit longer.

Sure it's taken 10 years or so but consider how low we were and how far we have come I find it really really strange that people consider the strategy as a whole flawed. Thankfully our Board can see past a poor season or a dissapointing Managerial appointment and keep to the plan, because ultimately it is all being shaped to allow us to focus more and more on the football side thanks to having a low debt, solid infrastucture set up well beyond any other SPL side outside the OF.

Thing is is we have a 'good' season this year and are right in the mix for 3rd or 4th we wouldn't be having this discussion...if we do I wonder how much credit you would give the Board or would it as ever be down to Yogi doing the business despite Rod and co's best efforts??

[wee 162]

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So the fact that Board supported each manager to bring in and get rid of so many players is a sign that the Board are not supporting the manager

You use the last two years as an example of how we have not 'invested'....have a look at the accounts, outside player sales we spent MORE than we could afford so player sales have been used to suppliment the managers budget.

Jeeez we can't spend what we ain't got....a lot of the transer fees received have been used to pay for money we had already spent 'investing' in the team in previous years and thankfully some was actually invested into the stadium and the training ground.

I really don't see where this extra 'investment' is going to come from without forcing up the debt yet again....any suggestions??

If by 'current strategy' you mean using player sales to invest in a fully completed modern stadium, a modern self owned training centre and ensuring managable debt then too right people will be happy with it.

It shouldn't really take much to see that when this phase is completed we WILL be in a position to use a huge portion of future sales to maybe try and attract significantly better quality of player or maybe more likely be able to hold onto future star players that wee bit longer.

Sure it's taken 10 years or so but consider how low we were and how far we have come I find it really really strange that people consider the strategy as a whole flawed. Thankfully our Board can see past a poor season or a dissapointing Managerial appointment and keep to the plan, because ultimately it is all being shaped to allow us to focus more and more on the football side thanks to having a low debt, solid infrastucture set up well beyond any other SPL side outside the OF.

Thing is is we have a 'good' season this year and are right in the mix for 3rd or 4th we wouldn't be having this discussion...if we do I wonder how much credit you would give the Board or would it as ever be down to Yogi doing the business despite Rod and co's best efforts??

Thing is thought that the turnover of players is because we are working at the bottom end of the football market. When you're signing players who you hope will develop into better players that's a gamble. When you're signing players older than that, then the fact is that if Hibs are the biggest club trying to sign them they've got to have some question marks against them at best, or they just simply aren't very good. There's probably around a couple of hundred clubs in Europe who can afford better wages than Hibs can pay.

What I would really like to see would be Hibs identifying and targetting a different way of signing good players. Personally I reckon that the two Morrocans we have are pretty near the best in the squad technique wise. So they've been good signings imo (leaving aside the various dramas with Benji in particular) because they've enhanced the side and squads technical ability. So maybe we should be having more of a look at the North African market for youngish players who are keen on moving to Europe for example. I'm not saying that targetting North Africa is the only way that we can do that, but I reckon it would be a decent starting place.

[matty_f]

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Thing is thought that the turnover of players is because we are working at the bottom end of the football market. When you're signing players who you hope will develop into better players that's a gamble. When you're signing players older than that, then the fact is that if Hibs are the biggest club trying to sign them they've got to have some question marks against them at best, or they just simply aren't very good. There's probably around a couple of hundred clubs in Europe who can afford better wages than Hibs can pay.

What I would really like to see would be Hibs identifying and targetting a different way of signing good players. Personally I reckon that the two Morrocans we have are pretty near the best in the squad technique wise. So they've been good signings imo (leaving aside the various dramas with Benji in particular) because they've enhanced the side and squads technical ability. So maybe we should be having more of a look at the North African market for youngish players who are keen on moving to Europe for example. I'm not saying that targetting North Africa is the only way that we can do that, but I reckon it would be a decent starting place.

Good point about identifying better places to pick up talent cheap. There's a few ways to do this, but we actually have a great youth set up that should give us players much cheaper than going out to buy them.

[hibees_green]

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Thing is thought that the turnover of players is because we are working at the bottom end of the football market.

[jgl07]

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Some European football

Played 2 meaningful European games in 10 years and failed to progress in either.

That is probably down to the way that European football is structured.

There were four Scottish clubs in the Europa Cup. Three have already departed before the domestic season has started. Hearts are still there because they haven't prlayed a match yet, Does anyone give them a chance against Dimano?

You either end up playing before pre-season training has barely commenced, often against teams in the middle of their season. Assuming that you scrape through such matches you will end in the Challenge Round against a seeded team who you have little chance of beating.

The whole thing has become an bloated overseeded bore.

The old European competitions offered a bit of uncertainty because they used a genuine draw. The current system based on coefficient points is rigged to ensure the maximum representation in the later round of clubs from the bigger leagues (more attractive to TV companies).

Apart from Rangers (dropping down form the CL) only two Scottish Clubs have made it to the Group Stages of the UEFA Cup (Hearts and Aberdeen) and only Aberdeen have progressed. When Hearts made it into the Group Stages they were seeded in the qualifying round. This is highly unlikely to be repeated in the future.

European progress is not really a realistic proposition for non-OF teams in the current structure,