Does Our Club Have Any Leadership Whatsoever At The Moment?

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Originally Posted by Andy74

We did, we made several difficult decisions very early that no-one here understood why and were dead against.

These led to being in a position where we awere ahead of the game and ultimatley we were able to get the best money for our players because we were in a position to demand it and not jump at the first offer because we needed to.

The arrangements that were put in place for the land around the stadium and the repurchase of the stadium were done on extremely beneficial terms and the board and owner need to be given credit for doing that and not lining any pockets.

The footballing side is one thing and despite a lot of backing something isn't working, but it's a bit much to try and belittle the achievements that have been made off the park.

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Andy I don't think the money we got for those players was wonderful, selling O'Connor, the timing was poor & 1.6m wasn't that impressive, considering a season in Russia brought a 1.3M profit for the Eastern Europeans.

It was John Collins who put his foot down regarding price & fair enough Petrie backed him, but again I don't think there was one player who went for an overly inflated price, that accolade belongs to the jambo's, who held out & got 9M for spotty, Hibs had to sell Brown, Thomson, Whit's & Murphy to achieve that.

With regard to the difficult decisions, how on earth can you say it was successful. We have gone from a support with a very high feel good factor & brilliant football to watch & record amounts of tangible income, to where we are now, dire football & haemorrhaging money!!

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

I haven't a clue what you are going on about!!

Selling saleable assets is not an exceptional achievement, what will be exceptional is if we start producing a product that will bi-weekly pack out our stadium.

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That is stating the obvious, I might argue that the provision of the training centre from the sale of your golden generation would assist that.

At the end of the day we had a good group of players, we grew them, used them and sold them to extract value and put it back into the cycle of Hibernian football club.

To think they would still be there now is crazy, I do not believe any of them would have remained beyond there existing contract, we would therefore still have debt, be training on public parks, and have the old east stand. People are entitled to their own views, in my own view it is crazy to rattle on about "what if we still had" "we should not have sold" etc.

I go back to my original question which of the clubs you noted originally have achieved what we have on and off the field?

Further to the above how many of these clubs and fans do you think would change places with us if they could?

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

So why waste money & expand, if that wasn't the aim?

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It should always be the aim but its never happened in our history. The suggestion was that it may be easily achieved with the right product was on the park or the right people in charge.

It wont because there has been much much better product and it didnt happen then.


While it should always be the aim history tells us its not worth gambling on.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

It should always be the aim but its never happened in our history. The suggestion was that it may be easily achieved with the right product was on the park or the right people in charge.

It wont because there has been much much better product and it didnt happen then.


While it should always be the aim history tells us its not worth gambling on.

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Yes, you're right - let's just pack up and go home.

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Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

That is stating the obvious, I might argue that the provision of the training centre from the sale of your golden generation would assist that.

At the end of the day we had a good group of players, we grew them, used them and sold them to extract value and put it back into the cycle of Hibernian football club.

To think they would still be there now is crazy, I do not believe any of them would have remained beyond there existing contract, we would therefore still have debt, be training on public parks, and have the old east stand. People are entitled to their own views, in my own view it is crazy to rattle on about "what if we still had" "we should not have sold" etc.

I go back to my original question which of the clubs you noted originally have achieved what we have on and off the field?

Further to the above how many of these clubs and fans do you think would change places with us if they could?

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I really don't know what you are on about in context to what I said about the board having done the easy bit, i.e. swap assets for debt reduction & infrastructure. The hard bit is to produce a product that will entice people to spend their money on Hibs, not drive them away, as is what is happening at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

The footballing side is one thing and despite a lot of backing something isn't working, but it's a bit much to try and belittle the achievements that have been made off the park.

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The two are linked however .. And despite being core business the football side of matters has not been the priority eg GO'C sale and poor replacements when players are sold. (Ironically, the next sale and arguably the most valuable asset we have at this moment is CC).

We will always and will always have to sell players - regardless of the Board's soundbites 'that we do not need to sell' .. We do. Our operating losses mean we do.

Why do we have operating losses - because on the park it is not good enough .. The last time it was, under JC, we traded at a profit .. Proof that on field success means off field success. The converse is not true!

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Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

That is stating the obvious, I might argue that the provision of the training centre from the sale of your golden generation would assist that.

At the end of the day we had a good group of players, we grew them, used them and sold them to extract value and put it back into the cycle of Hibernian football club.

To think they would still be there now is crazy, I do not believe any of them would have remained beyond there existing contract, we would therefore still have debt, be training on public parks, and have the old east stand. People are entitled to their own views, in my own view it is crazy to rattle on about "what if we still had" "we should not have sold" etc.

I go back to my original question which of the clubs you noted originally have achieved what we have on and off the field?

Further to the above how many of these clubs and fans do you think would change places with us if they could?

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Aye everything is fine !,

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

The two are linked however .. And despite being core business the football side of matters has not been the priority eg GO'C sale and poor replacements when players are sold. (Ironically, the next sale and arguably the most valuable asset we have at this moment is CC).

We will always and will always have to sell players - regardless of the Board's soundbites 'that we do not need to sell' .. We do. Our operating losses mean we do.

Why do we have operating losses - because on the park it is not good enough .. The last time it was, under JC, we traded at a profit .. Proof that on field success means off field success. The converse is not true!

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Agree and agree something isn't right on how the football side is being run.

Think it's time for Petrie to hang up the tache and see if we can't stop making the football side look so difficult.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Agree and agree something isn't right on how the football side is being run.

Think it's time for Petrie to hang up the tache and see if we can't stop making the football side look so difficult.

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Yup - the football side is also the harder part to get right - but our Board we have been found wanting too often for too long under RP.

We were Scotland's no. 1 underachievers pre-RP and we still are .. The acid test for me.

The impact of all this underachievement - falling STs/crowds.

There is no upward spiral just ever decreasing circles .. Time for change - and it should be from the top down..

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

It should always be the aim but its never happened in our history. The suggestion was that it may be easily achieved with the right product was on the park or the right people in charge.

It wont because there has been much much better product and it didnt happen then.


While it should always be the aim history tells us its not worth gambling on.

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It didn't happen with McLeish's team because the distrust between the fans & the board had alienated a lot of the support.

Many came back during the mid-naughties with the combined efforts of SUABC & more influentially, TM's team & footballing philosophy & the affect produced record amounts of tangible income for the club. We [as a club] clearly had learned after the abject failure to cash in during McLeish's reign.

It didn't last though, as the sexy football gave way to the dire performances of recent seasons.

The gamble has already been taken with the East Stand built [incurring more debt, but justified in my opinion] & a larger ground capacity & like I've been maintaining, the real difficult job for the board is to keep on producing teams to use that capacity & then we truly say that the board have done an exceptional job.

The fact is with all this "progress", we've been in decline.

We have less debt than ever before...and less points to show for it.

It's been said too many times. This beautiful stadium, training ground and general infrastructure is all meaningless if it produces the sum total of **** all. I class 10th place, 11 points of the bottom and losing to the worst teams in the league as the sum total of **** all by the way, for the avoidance of all doubt.

I call losing to dross and exiting the cups in a humiliating fashion achieving the sum total of **** all.

Its just, not, good enough.

So why pretend it is?

Show me someone who accepts losing and I will show you a loser. If the aim of the game is not to win, then what is the ****ing point, ma lord?

Indeed. All the crap that goes around it is just that. What REALLY matters, before crowds drop, merchandise isnt sold and subsequently sold at half price and we go backwards is football. The key. The word not often used in this debate.

Football.

Not all the other stuff. What MATTERS, to 99.9% of punters going to the game is FOOTBALL. Patience is a wonderful thing. It has however, been exhausted for many...

Next season MUST be a return to good fitba, good results and some frickin progress. Otherwise, I predict, a riot.

No more excuses. No more "transition" or "development" periods. Results. Improvement and progress.

ENDOF

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Originally Posted by new malkyhib

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Yes, you're right - let's just pack up and go home.

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I never said that. As usual you twist things to suit youself.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

It didn't happen with McLeish's team because the distrust between the fans & the board had alienated a lot of the support.

Many came back during the mid-naughties with the combined efforts of SUABC & more influentially, TM's team & footballing philosophy & the affect produced record amounts of tangible income for the club. We [as a club] clearly had learned after the abject failure to cash in during McLeish's reign.

It didn't last though, as the sexy football gave way to the dire performances of recent seasons.

The gamble has already been taken with the East Stand built [incurring more debt, but justified in my opinion] & a larger ground capacity & like I've been maintaining, the real difficult job for the board is to keep on producing teams to use that capacity & then we truly say that the board have done an exceptional job.

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What you are saying is not wrong but we didnt fill the stadium bi-weekly under Turnbull and we didnt fill it with the famous five. Different times and different criteria and you could argue both points all night but that is the reality.

Scottish Football is a shrinking market place and the gulf vetween the top two and the rest is huge, probably larger, or at least as large, as anywhere else. We will have occassional days and occassional good teams, like we have had all my life but thats it.

While we should always be trying to improve we are, imo, doing it the right way in taking small measured steps. History is against us though.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

Scottish Football is a shrinking market place and the gulf vetween the top two and the rest is huge, probably larger, or at least as large, as anywhere else. We will have occassional days and occassional good teams, like we have had all my life but thats it.

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Making the decision to spend the last of the cash on the East - taking on more debt, incurring interest costs and increasing the cost base (on the non-footbaLling side) all the more staggering!

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

Making the decision to spend the last the cash, take on more debt, incur interest costs and increase the cost base all the more staggering!

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Probably.

I do think though if the stadium was the other way round and the East had been built first, or the flats had never been built, then the new stand would not be built yet. A number of factors conspired against us and kind of forced the issue.

If that makes any sense?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

What you are saying is not wrong but we didnt fill the stadium bi-weekly under Turnbull and we didnt fill it with the famous five. Different times and different criteria and you could argue both points all night but that is the reality.

Scottish Football is a shrinking market place and the gulf vetween the top two and the rest is huge, probably larger, or at least as large, as anywhere else. We will have occassional days and occassional good teams, like we have had all my life but thats it.

While we should always be trying to improve we are, imo, doing it the right way in taking small measured steps. History is against us though.

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Football during Turnbull's spell in charge was different than today, Rangers attracted 80k to Ibrox for a European Semi & had 4k at Ibrox against Morton, all in the same month.

Hibs best attendance [not biggest] was against East Fife, when 17k turned up five days after the 7-0 game, however, this also was the beginning of the end of the TT's, our next match saw a 0-1 reverse at Dundee Utd as injuries & suspensions saw the decline that ended up with us third & rapidly exited from the two remaining cup competitions, therefore, just like the team, crowd wise, we were left to ponder what might have been.

What you are saying is defeatist, Hibs are one of the top teams in the land & yes, who have a history of woeful underachieving, but all too often this has been caused by the dreadful way we have been run.

The Hibs board have said they want to aim to regularly qualify for Europe & challenge for cups, rightly so, with a club of Hibs status, it shouldn't be any other way. The team in the middle of the 00's proved people would come & spend money on Hibs, if the product was right and sold properly, it shows it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

I really don't know what you are on about in context to what I said about the board having done the easy bit, i.e. swap assets for debt reduction & infrastructure. The hard bit is to produce a product that will entice people to spend their money on Hibs, not drive them away, as is what is happening at the moment.

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Again you have failed to answer the questions that I asked. On that basis I will take that as none of them have achieved what we have on and off the pitch as a whole, and all of them would take our position if they could.

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Originally Posted by down the slope

Aye everything is fine !,

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Dont believe I said that. What I did say is our club have worked hard to achieve a long standing infrastructure and furture to hibs, not just for us to enjoy next season, but for decades to come. If you have a swipe at the jambos for there debt and crap stadium and you are doing so only beacause of what our board have achieved. Using them as an example they are practically bankrupt and have some pipe dream every three months about creating a proper stadium - would you rather finish third every so often and have their position?

The question is do we have leadership - there can be no doubt that are club has a clearer vision of were it wants to be and is consistantly making choices and decisions to get us there. I would go as far as to say the have a clear view and leadership path than any other club in the league.

I believe our club has taken a longer term view...rome was not built in a day and all that. They have invested in something that we as Hibs fans will always have and in doing so ensuring that we have a sound financial footing to invest in the changable part of the club - the playing side.

I am not interested in players that we have sold and what they could or could not have done. We have what we have now and I would not change that for the sake of being able to look at Thomson and Brown play every week for the balance of their original contracts.

I notice that Smurf, having started this thread, is now plainly failing to lead the discussion and put his stamp of authority on it's outcomes.

As one of the highest earners on .net, what exactly is he doing to justify his membership here?

Yet again, we see that this thread has turned into a rambling shambles as he has comprehensively failed to offer any sort of direction for it.

It's a disgrace, the thread is just drifting. Perhaps there just be a deadline put on when this thread will be closed. It's dragging on far too long and I'm sick of it.

The finger of blame only points in one direction.

Get it sorted!

Smmmuuuuuuurrrrrrfffff!!!!

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Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

Again you have failed to answer the questions that I asked. On that basis I will take that as none of them have achieved what we have on and off the pitch as a whole, and all of them would take our position if they could.



Dont believe I said that. What I did say is our club have worked hard to achieve a long standing infrastructure and furture to hibs, not just for us to enjoy next season, but for decades to come. If you have a swipe at the jambos for there debt and crap stadium and you are doing so only beacause of what our board have achieved. Using them as an example they are practically bankrupt and have some pipe dream every three months about creating a proper stadium - would you rather finish third every so often and have their position?

The question is do we have leadership - there can be no doubt that are club has a clearer vision of were it wants to be and is consistantly making choices and decisions to get us there. I would go as far as to say the have a clear view and leadership path than any other club in the league.

I believe our club has taken a longer term view...rome was not built in a day and all that. They have invested in something that we as Hibs fans will always have and in doing so ensuring that we have a sound financial footing to invest in the changable part of the club - the playing side.

I am not interested in players that we have sold and what they could or could not have done. We have what we have now and I would not change that for the sake of being able to look at Thomson and Brown play every week for the balance of their original contracts.

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What we have now is a stadium that we can't hope to fill out regularly & a product that is driving people away in droves.

I don't know what your question is, but if you are asking how we are competing with teams of relevant size to ours, both Aberdeen & Hearts have far better records than us, over the time you have spent on this earth & both finished above us last season.

Our ground is better & we have our own training facilities, however, sadly since owing them, we have produced some of the worst displays that I've ever witnessed Hibs produce & as such our financial position is worsening year on year, with little assets to sell, to bail us out this time, therefore we need to get it right on the pitch to attract those fans you have little time for.

Hearts are not bankrupt & the debt is in the hands of Vlad, who knows where it'll end up, a crystal ball would be needed for that, however, Motherwell and several other teams are there plying their trade, with little evidence of recent financial mishap.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

What we have now is a stadium that we can't hope to fill out regularly & a product that is driving people away in droves.

A stadium that as a fan I am sure you are proud of? I go back to my view noted before - there is a real spoilt child attitude about a section of our fans - delighted to have a strong financial position, good stadium and training facility - but that is not good enough we need everything now. People need to get real - expecting anything at once is not going to happen.

We have invested in the right things first, if the fans are running away they maybe need to look at themselves not the club.

I don't know what your question is, but if you are asking how we are competing with teams of relevant size to ours, both Aberdeen & Hearts have far better records than us, over the time you have spent on this earth & both finished above us last season.

The post above focused, like I initial said, on the last 5 years. Going back to the point our club has led us in a very sound direction during this time, a direction which I dont think you can agrue is better than any of the above mentioned clubs.

Our ground is better & we have our own training facilities, however, sadly since owing them, we have produced some of the worst displays that I've ever witnessed Hibs produce & as such our financial position is worsening year on year, with little assets to sell, to bail us out this time, therefore we need to get it right on the pitch to attract those fans you have little time for.

The first bit I would suggest you have a word with yourself, we have had the stand for a year and the training centre for about 3. Again I go back to expecting everything in 5 minutes.

Hearts are not bankrupt & the debt is in the hands of Vlad, who knows where it'll end up, a crystal ball would be needed for that, however, Motherwell and several other teams are there plying their trade, with little evidence of recent financial mishap.

I think you need to read the paper more - I think you will find all clubs in the SPL consistantly moan about there debt and financial resource, I am proud that we do not have bits in the paper about being skint and millions and millions in debt. You should be to.

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Someone was getting a little excited above about sticking to the point, I dont think I could be more to the point. Anyone who argues we dont have leadership from the top down is kidding themselves. Our board has a plan, the manager they put in place has a plan, and in the pitch we have two or three players we could have leading us.

You can be as negative as you want about hibs, but I think our board have led us in a good direction. I agree last season was gash, the season before was decent, but the reality is both have passed. There has been significant changes on the pitch and I am hopeful that this is the start of investing on that front.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

What you are saying is defeatist, Hibs are one of the top teams in the land & yes, who have a history of woeful underachieving, but all too often this has been caused by the dreadful way we have been run.

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I prefer "realist" Ray :greengrin


Following the 7-0 game Hibs finished 2nd that season and 2nd again the next followed by a third for season 75-76.

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Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

Someone was getting a little excited above about sticking to the point, I dont think I could be more to the point. Anyone who argues we dont have leadership from the top down is kidding themselves. Our board has a plan, the manager they put in place has a plan, and in the pitch we have two or three players we could have leading us.

You can be as negative as you want about hibs, but I think our board have led us in a good direction. I agree last season was gash, the season before was decent, but the reality is both have passed. There has been significant changes on the pitch and I am hopeful that this is the start of investing on that front.

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Our present owner & his board didn't turn up five years ago, but over twenty, patience you say, it is nearly sixty years ago since we won the title & more than a hundred since the national cup, we are in a constant state of transition & like it or not, we are millions in debt & it's rising because of being unable to get things right on the park, I think it is you who is kidding yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

I prefer "realist" Ray :greengrin

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If it make you happy, then no bother :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

Our present owner & his board didn't turn up five years ago, but over twenty, patience you say, it is nearly sixty years ago since we won the title & more than a hundred since the national cup, we are in a constant state of transition & like it or not, we are millions in debt & it's rising because of being unable to get things right on the park, I think it is you who is kidding yourself.

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Same for every club in the league re debt - crowds are not solely down to performance.

I go back to my original point. Every club out with rangers and celtic would take our overall position as a club, if you dont see that you have lost it.

With regards winning the league, I think you need to sit down - even with your so called golden generation it was not going to happen...as best you can hold on to the "yeah but it might have". If the league is what you are after I think you would be better off spending the day...in fact the next 20 years in Ikea.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

I prefer "realist" Ray :greengrin


Following the 7-0 game Hibs finished 2nd that season and 2nd again the next followed by a third for season 75-76.

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Nope, even before our final league game, a 0-3 defeat by Celtic, Rangers had already beaten us to second. we came in second the two seasons following that, the last of which saw Rangers winning the title.

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Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

Same for every club in the league re debt - crowds are not solely down to performance.

I go back to my original point. Every club out with rangers and celtic would take our overall position as a club, if you dont see that you have lost it.

With regards winning the league, I think you need to sit down - even with your so called golden generation it was not going to happen...as best you can hold on to the "yeah but it might have". If the league is what you are after I think you would be better off spending the day...in fact the next 20 years in Ikea.

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What are you going on about, you were talking as though Hibs were that well run that they are the only team WITHOUT debt. My golden generation :greengrin, what I said about them was using them as as an example when the crowds & money were pouring in [record amounts, in all area's of the business, as was being reported] & that we never got anywhere near the money for any of them, that Hearts did with Gordon, is any of that untrue?

PS I've never ever been to IKEA & I don't know where the nearest one is to where I live, but I can tell you something, there's plenty of options for entertainment for me, at a fraction of the price of a trip to Edinburgh, to watch a dire football match, which is almost all that's been on offer at ER during the last 3-4 years.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

Nope, even before our final league game, a 0-3 defeat by Celtic, Rangers had already beaten us to second. we came in second the two seasons following that, the last of which saw Rangers winning the title.

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Even worse then if we finished third that year and secont the following two followed by a third. 7-0 was hardly the end of TT's if they were yet to achieve their two best finishes.

Settle for that now I think.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

Even worse then if we finished third that year and secont the following two followed by a third. 7-0 was hardly the end of TT's if they were yet to achieve their two best finishes.

Settle for that now I think.

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Without a doubt would settle for it. The TT's was often acknowledged as the team that played in the 7-0 game & in much of the games that season, leading up to that match & the East Fife match, a few days later. The TT's DVD highlights that team as well.

Because of the injuries & suspensions, I'm not sure if the TT's played together again, the following match, Dundee Utd, Des Bremner made his debut at RB & Bobby Smith and Tony Higgins were others that made their debut during the second half of the season.

Onion was out over a year & by that time, Harper had joined and soon afterwards the exodus started.

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Originally Posted by Ray-in-ireland

Without a doubt would settle for it. The TT's was often acknowledged as the team that played in the 7-0 game & in much of the games that season, leading up to that match & the East Fife match, a few days later. The TT's DVD highlights that team as well.

Because of the injuries & suspensions, I'm not sure if the TT's played together again, the following match, Dundee Utd, Des Bremner made his debut at RB & Bobby Smith and Tony Higgins were others that made their debut during the second half of the season.

Onion was out over a year & by that time, Harper had joined and soon afterwards the exodus started.

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Thats the team I remember and associate as TT's I suppose as well. It might be said the team that got the best finishes was NOT TT's then. Bizarre how the memory fools us.