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Oh I do hope so...
"Three teams have averaged more than 65 per cent possession at the 2018 World Cup: Spain (74.7 per cent), Germany (72.0 per cent) and Argentina (66.0 per cent). All three struggled in the group stage, and are now out of the competition."
D. Telegraph.
Absolutely with you on this one Dan. One of the most boring forms of football ever seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
I’ve said it for ages, you can have all the possession you like but if the ball isn’t going forward or into the goal you aren’t going to win. Silly little triangle passes along the back 4 do nothing.
You can though still play good passing football but moving it quickly up the park. Belgium for me done this and the game last night was very good. Both playing passing football while trying to get up the park quickly.
:agree: At times the French movement of the ball was spellbinding I thought. The long, long slow passages in between I could have done without.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
Goals change games.:wink:
Hear here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
Spain didn't exactly struggle with at as their central philosophy thought did they? Three consecutive tournaments, by far the most successful international side in my lifetime. And Barca weren't bad either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
I don't understand why people have to be so extreme and black and white. Tiki taka at the time was revolutionary, and changed the way football is played. When done well, it was as close to unbeatable as I've seen. When done badly, it is just, well, bad.
The same could be said of current vogue for quick counters, which when done well (Belgium, man city) are devastating, but when done badly are really just a defensive long ball game (hearts...😁).
The history of fitba shows that it constantly evolves. It is ten years since Barca and Spain started their ascendancy, so It is not surprising it has evolved and people work out how to counter it. The same as happened with all forms of football, from Scots inventing passing instead of dribbling, to catenaccio and offside traps, total football etc.
France last night were good, but were also very defensive and reactive. Tiki taka when done well, was the most proactive and positive style of football I have seen. And it was never about keeping possession for the sake of it.
Also worth pointing out that the teams mentioned above, Spain have just left an era of unparalleled domination, and Germany and Argentina contested the last world cup final.
When the German sides destroyed the Spanish sides a few years back in the champions league the decline started.
Agreed - they showed how to counter it effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
the introduction of the "false number 9":grr:Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
Sounds like I may be in the minority but I loved watching Barcelona and Spain 2008-2012 when Tika Taka peaked imo.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by yonder1875
Tika Taka done right was amazing to watch at times. Guardiolas Barcelona team were just brilliant at their best.
Saved me posting, agree with every word.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
:agree: Without doubt the best football team I ever seen play, in my opinion. When they utterly dismantled Madrid and won 5-0, back when David Villa was there, is one of my favourite games of all time. Messi masterclass, Xavi on the scoresheet, Ramos losing the plot completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Harsh to write-off the style of play as boring because a few teams that keep possession have been knocked out of the World Cup. Not every team that holds onto the ball play 'Tiki-Taka'.
Me too, definitely the best team I have watched in my lifetime. Can't forget about Puyol at centre half, the guy was immense.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
One game from that Barcelona era that I'll always reference was the Champions League final against Man United at Wembley, where Barca won 3-1. But the score line didn't really highlight the gulf on the sides. Rio Ferdinand done an interview on BT Sport talking about that game talking how he was never close enough to Messi to even give him a kick.
Having possession above 65% does not mean a side is playing tiki taka.
To say that the sides mentioned at this world cup (Germany,Argentina,Spain) played tiki taka and for them to be held up as proof that that system has been found out isn't right imo. The levels Spain, Barcelona (08-12) achieved were phenomenal but they also had phenomenal players who were capable of playing that style to the point where they were basically untouchable. I agree that it was eventually countered but that also coincided with the break up of those sides with new players and managers who couldn't live up to the previous dominance. Passing for passing sake with no creativity and purpose is dull and easy to defend against, that's why those countries got papped out early doors, not because they supposedly played tiki taka.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Was that Jose's first match in charge against Barcelona? Madrid were unbeaten, at the top.....Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
I recall thinking at the time "Simply the best game I have ever seen". Was 5 going on 12.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv8wOjk0D3Uhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv8wOjk0D3U
That's the one :aok: Still thoroughly enjoy the highlights every time they appear on the wee sky sports programmes to this day.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanFranHibs
Great post! At its peak, Tika-Taka was incredible and was never about keeping the ball just for the sake of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
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Originally Posted by Sergio sledge
Fair point.
Maybe we need another name for the "pat it about at the back until we all fall asleep" style of football that evolved from Tika-Taka?
Any suggestions?
Probably one of the greatest ever games (non Hibs) I saw, was simply a masterclass in football and will be a game I remember for the rest of my life, it was that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
The English Premier League :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
Mowbray-ball?
Stubbs-ball. McCoist "I thought we were playing Barcelona" after the Petrofac Cup. Although the next game against them, (3-1?), we had a good mix. tika-taka and quick final balls to Malonga/Cummings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
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Originally Posted by SanFranHibs
Yeah, there were a few games like that. I think I prefer the more direct style favoured by Lennon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
Ticka-Tocka?
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio sledge
****ty patter? The play in Spain is mainly rather plain? Diva Espana? Boreusrepublik Deutschland? Don't play a false No 9 for me Argentina?That's all I've got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
Glad to see the back of it. I always found it monotonous to watch. It seemed to work quite well though, until it suddenly didn't.
Great post. Couldnt agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
When Spain beat Italy in the 2012 Euros i felt it was as close to football to perfection as youre likely to see.
Time moves on though and coaches and players work out to counter the tactics.
Thats where Spain have gone wrong. No plan B, just stubbornly sticking to that style.
Genuinely anyone who didn’t enjoy the football Spain and Barcelona played between 2008-2012 and saying they’re glad to see the back of it is away with the fairies. Mental.
The two greatest sides you’ll ever see, club and country. If you don’t enjoy watching that then I’d suggest finding a different sport.
I really hope that Barcelona side isn't remembered by calling it "tiki-taka"...
I think if you went to Spain and talked about those teams (Spain 2008-12 and Barcelona 2008-12) and used the words "tiki-taka" youd get laughed at. It's a silly name that means nothing, like calling the German national side "die mannshaft".
Even the genuine tiki-taka styles mentioned above?Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Attachment 20975
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Originally Posted by May2116
Cruyff era Holland, Pele's Brasil (esp 1970), Cruyff's Ajax, Gullitt's Milan and - though it pains me to say it - the Real Madrid of the late 50s. All at least as good and probably better than Barcelona/Spain. The Dalgleish era and onward Liverpool should probably be included too. Maybe you need to take a slightly longer historical view?
It is, as they say, all about opinions.
Yes, it's a daft publicly name being used in that photo for daft publicly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sarf
My abiding highlight is when we tikka takkad through the Gorgie rearguard seven times in the one afternoon.
Unforgettable.
Really? Not saying you’re necessarily wrong but the first time I ever heard the term was when Xavi used it in an interview about 10 years ago. So much so that I’ve always associated the phrase with him specificallyQuote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I think it was a Spanish commentator who 1st used the phrase bit you're right that Xavi and Iniesta have both referenced it in interviews.Quote:
Originally Posted by My_Wife_Camille
I can't stand it so hope it is on its way out. At least a hump up the park can lead to some excitement.
The rise of the set piece as championed by Liam “the deliverer” Henderson 🇳🇬🏆
It was never about just keeping the ball for the sake of it, it was ball retention to carve out an opening, Barca did it with pace and guile, their players were quite simply fabulous at the time, controlled build up and precise defence splitting passes and attacked with pace on the counter when opponents lost the ball. Look at Man City right now, the new Barca :greengrin similar style, 65-70% possession, are they boring jeez they were outstanding this year at times, Guardiola instilling the same style as he did at Barca.
I had the pleasure of being at that game, was unbelievable and amazing to see masters such as Iniesta and Xavi make Real Madrid looks like hearts! Barca fans were giving it tight to Mourinho all gameQuote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
And he's probably the player that epitomises the understanding and performing of that style of play.... for all I favoured Iniesta as a midfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by My_Wife_Camille
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
But that’s the point though, isn’t it? Some successful football teams are so dominant that they don’t just win trophies but they define a style of play, and everyone else either copies them or works out how to spoil their game.
Tiki taka absolutely belongs up there with the best. By any standard, the 2008-2012 achievements of Barcelona and Spain were exceptional.
The haterz have it wrong.
The 3-3 game between Spain and Portugal at this World Cup is widely regarded as one of the best matches of the tournament, and Spain were in proper tiki taka mode that night.
Football tactics are about innovation and reaction. No one style can dominate forever. Yet tiki taka still has a huge influence a decade on.
Also overlooked, is the importance of high pressing and counter pressing that Barca really brought to prominence in that era. Tiki taka used in a derogatory way suggests stale and boring, but that team were anything but and styles like that used by Liverpool now have a link back to the high press that Barca used. It's just evolved slightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
It was first used by a Spanish commentator who usually commentated on American basketball but also worked with football when his channel covered WC . His channel La Sexta had 2006 WC as an opening event to promote the channel and expression stuck when Spain team changed style after WC and defeat in Belfast in a qualifier . A very original commentator in all sports who sadly passed away not long after his expression became famous .Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Welcome to Hibs.net Craig.Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie70
The football played by Barca and Spain during that era was, literally, second to none. With your Xavis and Iniestas proving flawless, it was a joy to behold watching them in full flow; the problem was that every coach in the world thought football could be won on percentages of possession, and teams imitated the style without the substance of your Iniestas, Xavis and Messis. The problem for Spain, and Barca - and every imitator under the sun - is they don't have Xavi and Iniesta at their peak pulling the strings any more, and so the show's over. What a midfield pair they were, though.
I've never enjoyed watching a team that wasn't hibs as much as Barcelona when Messi iniesta and Xavi were at it. Some of the quick passing and one two's were out of this world. I remember watching arsenal doing to Barcelona what Barcelona had done for so long to others. Wilshere ran the midfield against Busquets, Xavi and iniesta that night.
I think England's biggest asset is that they play with energy and directness. With a bit of luck, they could win it, although I still fancy France.
Tika taka done correctly is very watchable, with quick passes and incisive movement to create openings combined with close pressing to immediately recover possession if the ball is lost.
Tika taka done badly becomes possession for the sake of it with no threat to the opposition, and about as exciting as having a non-restricted view seat in the half-finished stand at the PBS.
It is just a daft name created by a journalist to describe Spains passing years ago, before Peps Barcelona. It doesn't actually mean anything. It is nothing to do with the actual philosophy that Barcelona implemented when Pep took over.Quote:
Originally Posted by My_Wife_Camille
You're definitely right there pal, with the journalists' mantra... for me, living in Spain at the time following Rayo Vallecano, watching the national team or Barca was just the fruition of Johann Cruyff's perception of Total Football. And it was beautiful to see. Even when the team you were following became the victim.
It does mean something, its the word used to describe the style :dunno: I'd get your irritation if the word was in some way pejorative, but it's not. Good a word as any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Surely both short passing in tight spaces and long passing, to take advantage of big spaces, are both about speed of thought, speed of action and control in execution? I. Cathro
Yep. Approaches evolve and the opposition responds. Teams passing too slowly have struggled at this world cup. It will be different again in 2022. The good news is: quicker football is quite exciting! Bring it on :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
Its more of a lighthearted term, like hoofball, used by a commentator to describe it. It doesn't really mean anything. The actually philosophy goes back well before that and has evolved far beyond it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Doesn't bother me at all, just giving my thoughts.
Who can forget this piece of sporting art?
https://youtu.be/COe5Y29-BZY
Correct. That team and style was a perfect coming togetherQuote:
Originally Posted by McrHibee
Exactly, when its done right its a joy to watch, having teams try it with players who cant control the ball as well as the Barca team, or the Spanish sides that won the Euros and world cup is admirable, but daft.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-C
If you are not good enough to play this way, then play a different way.
Sanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by R'Albin
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Originally Posted by One Day Soon
Oi. Much more of this and I will do a hatchet job on catenaccio.
Now that was boring...