Boyle and Gray - Can we play them both?

Playing our 352 really creates a conundrum for us. Both players are undroppable just now but I don’t believe the 352 works best with both of them in the team.

Boyle is far more effective and dangerous out wide. SDG is also a brilliant wingback but his defensive qualities far outweighs Boyle’s.

As a striker Boyle is ok. His composure and finishing are not the best but his pace is always a threat. I’d rather have Jamie Mac up beside Flo, or Shaw.

I believe the only way to accommodate both would be for us to play either a 442 or 433.

Perhaps when we get Agyepong in the team we can afford to play 442 but what does the middle of midfield look like? Mallan definitely but who beside him?

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Originally Posted by Hibby Kay-Yay

Playing our 352 really creates a conundrum for us. Both players are undroppable just now but I don’t believe the 352 works best with both of them in the team.

Boyle is far more effective and dangerous out wide. SDG is also a brilliant wingback but his defensive qualities far outweighs Boyle’s.

As a striker Boyle is ok. His composure and finishing are not the best but his pace is always a threat. I’d rather have Jamie Mac up beside Flo, or Shaw.

I believe the only way to accommodate both would be for us to play either a 442 or 433.

Perhaps when we get Agyepong in the team we can afford to play 442 but what does the middle of midfield look like? Mallan definitely but who beside him?

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I do think we will end up going to a 442 formation, and I think it will be the midfielder that we haven't yet signed that will be in the middle alongside Mallan.

We have a few of these conundrums in our squad right now.

4-3-3/ 4-5-1 would suit Gray, Boyle and Bartley but which CH do you drop? Hanlon and Efe have often looked wobbly without either McGregor or Porteous in there. Could you justify dropping either Efe or Hanlon but playing Porteous or McGregor? Who plays on the left?

3-5-2 has been our best formation during Lennons time and Boyle on the right has been one of the biggest successes of that formation so I think once we are at full strength we will see Boyle back out wide and gray to the bench. Seems harsh I know as Gray has been outstanding for us this year so far but there is no space for sentiment if we want to progress in Europe and fight for 2nd.

So which CB loses out in the 442 or 433 formation...? There is always going to be a sacrifice. Unfortunately I think the sacrifice needs to be Gray unless we need to play defensively, and continue with the 352.

As for who plays on the left of a 451, it would be Agyepong.

I think our strongest team will be

Marciano/Bogdan

Hanlon
McGregor
Ambrose

Stevenson
Mallan
NEW CM
Hyndman
Boyle

Kamberi
MacLaren

One thing i could see happen is Lewy falling back into the back 3 (like he did against Rangers last year) and Agyepong taking up the LWB role.... again i think Lennon will have two versions of the 352, one for an attacking game and one for a defensive game.

Need our best players out on the park just now regardless of formation and Boyler and SDG are right up there just now. A revitalised SDG has been a breath of fresh air like a new signing. We still appear to be lacking something imo and hopefully we can add quality to the squad before the window closes.
Boyler is a wide player not a striker and we need to get Jamie Mac up to speed. We also have the boy from Bournemouth who looks decent going by his you tube clips and the boy from Man City to add to the mix.

I like Boyle out wide, but I like SDG pushed up a bit, it's a fantastic outball from goal kicks and for cross field balls by Hanlon/Mallan to Gray out wide. Gray's run towards the end was sublime, he came inside when he seen the space and stayed onside, won the header to knock down for Hyndman who almost scored. I don't think Boyle would have done the same, but he offers something completely different and I wouldn't expect him to.

On the whole, I think 4-4-2 could be the way to go.

Keeper
Gray Ambrose Hanlon Stevenson
Hyndman Slivka Mallan Boyle
Kamberi Maclaren

Hyndman playing less wide than Boyle and SDG taking on some of the RW responsibility.

Need to drop Gray I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by IGRIGI

Need to drop Gray I'm afraid.

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Go back to 442 and play him

Pretty simple play 4-3-3

Keeper

Gray
Portous
Hanlon
Stevenson

Hyndman
Slivka
Mallan

Boyle
Kamberi
MacLaren

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

3-5-2 has been our best formation during Lennons time and Boyle on the right has been one of the biggest successes of that formation so I think once we are at full strength we will see Boyle back out wide and gray to the bench. Seems harsh I know as Gray has been outstanding for us this year so far but there is no space for sentiment if we want to progress in Europe and fight for 2nd.

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Nailhead hit. Great option to have, Boyle runs and runs wide right til he's out on his feet and we're winning, then Gray comes on.

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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

Go back to 442 and play him

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And change what has been a winning formation to accomodate 1 player....?

Unless we play 4-4-2, I don't see it - but we may well end up playing that in some games. It's all about being adaptable.

Not everyone can play every game, and we have superb options right throughout the squad at the moment - with more quality to come in as well.

Gray may end up playing right hand side of the back 3 and overlapping with Boyle like Hanlon does with Lewis.

I also think he's not particularly quick, but he's a powerful runner, and we'll need that in the team with Mcginn not there. He's also a leader, and a big game player. You need that at European level, and Lennon will put a lot of value in that from his own experience.

I don't think 442 works for us really.

352 and rotate as we need to. I'm not sure Gray has a 40 odd game season in him so he will need rested every so often. Boyle can play in 2 or 3 positions so will get plenty game time. Football is a squad game and the idea of a 'best team' is a bit of an old fashioned idea. Most teams change things about throughout a season or on a game to game basis and it's why depth is so important.

Three at the back has been really successful and I don’t see Lennon changing it any time soon. He certainly won’t away in Molde.

If he needs to make a tough decision to leave someone out, so be it. We can’t keep playing Boyle up front. He’ll run and run but isn’t anywhere near as effective as he is out wide.

As things stand we’re not strong enough in the middle of the park to just play with two in there IMO.

I think Gray has been our best player this year and has defended well while also proving to be a great attacking force both scoring and sending great balls into the box. I don't think Boyle is very effective up front and it hasn't help playing with a three quarter throttle Flo who has been a bit out of sorts. If McLaren was fit Boyle would drop out for me.

I think Lennon needs to start to rebuild and take a wider view of the squad. I was saying last night that if SJM had still been here and Daz was fit then 7 of the starters would have been Scottish Cup winners(Gray, Lewis, Hanlon, Daz, Boyle, Marv, McGinn). Lennon has certainly presided over improvements in some of those players but up until now it has been those legends that have carried the team. With SJM gone and Daz looking to struggle to play every game we will, for the first time, see how good or bad Lennon is at building a team. The squad looks unbalanced at present and we are crying out for more legs in midfield and cover in certain areas. It is going to be an interesting few weeks to see who comes in as imo we need at least 2 or 3 players of good quality to maintain our position of last year. Hyndman looks a good player but is similar to Swanson and Mallan in being more attacking than defensive. We desperately need a midfield water carrier with a bit of quality, cover for Centre Half and a left sided player(that may be Agyepong) to allow us to play a 442 and fit Boyle and Gray in. Even then it is a mall squad and we will have to be lucky with injuries, form and suspensions.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

And change what has been a winning formation to accomodate 1 player....?

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Sorry we are “accommodating” Gray?

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Originally Posted by J-C

Pretty simple play 4-3-3

Keeper

Gray
Portous
Hanlon
Stevenson

Hyndman
Slivka
Mallan

Boyle
Kamberi
MacLaren

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I don't think it's as simple as that, we were better last season with Barker in the side. Assuming Agpeyong is going to take that role this season then you'd think that Boyle would play one side, and Agpeyong on the other.

Not sure what fomation Lennon is going to come up with to accomodate them, considering Gray's performances have been outstanding so far this season.

I’d tuck Gray in on the right side of a back 3 beside Hanlon and McGregor and play Boyle on the right. Both are undroppable right now IMO

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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

Sorry we are “accommodating” Gray?

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Well, yes, in this instance we are....

In my opinion, Boyle is better at RWB than Gray so to change formation to keep Gray in the starting lineup i would call that accommodating him.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I don't think it's as simple as that, we were better last season with Barker in the side. Assuming Agpeyong is going to take that role this season then you'd think that Boyle would play one side, and Agpeyong on the other.

Not sure what fomation Lennon is going to come up with to accomodate them, considering Gray's performances have been outstanding so far this season.

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And then we have the same problem with Lewis on the left.

It’s good to have a defensive 352 and an attacking one. If only we were able to have more than 3 subs per game :cb

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Originally Posted by .Sean.

I’d tuck Gray in on the right side of a back 3 beside Hanlon and McGregor and play Boyle on the right. Both are undroppable right now IMO

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Doing something like that would be us getting in to a position where we were just trying to accommodate players IMO.

Gray has been superb at wing back which is a more natural position for him. Playing as a right sided centre half is totally different and we have players more capable of playing that position than him.

We're just going to need to get to the Europa League group stages, the latter stages of the League cup and Scottish Cup so we need to use all of the permutations discussed above at different times, rather than just putting out our best team once a week.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I don't think it's as simple as that, we were better last season with Barker in the side. Assuming Agpeyong is going to take that role this season then you'd think that Boyle would play one side, and Agpeyong on the other.

Not sure what fomation Lennon is going to come up with to accomodate them, considering Gray's performances have been outstanding so far this season.

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4-3-3 can quickly change to 4-5-1/4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 or even the Famous 5 shape 4-1-1-4 :greengrin, with these systems players can slot into left/right and middle easily, it's very adaptable.

The new way nowadays is to play very attacking wingbacks and go with 3 at the back, sometimes these wingbacks are converted wingers, unfortunately we have a very good wingback in Gray and Boyle has shown he can be very capable playing there too. When Gray plays in a back 4 with Boyle in front of him they link up very well and have a very good understanding, it also allows Boyle to concentrate on his attacking duties knowing Gray is behind him.

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Doing something like that would be us getting in to a position where we were just trying to accommodate players IMO.

Gray has been superb at wing back which is a more natural position for him. Playing as a right sided centre half is totally different and we have players more capable of playing that position than him.

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You could say the same with shoehorning Boyle in as a centre forward though when playing Gray on the right

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Originally Posted by .Sean.

You could say the same with shoehorning Boyle in as a centre forward though when playing Gray on the right

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You could, and I don’t think we should do that either. As I said in another post, if Lennon needs to make a tough call and leave someone out then so be it.

Although he’s not fully fit, I think Flo also needs his mate back beside him.

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Originally Posted by .Sean.

You could say the same with shoehorning Boyle in as a centre forward though when playing Gray on the right

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Agreed. It’s an incredibly tough decision but if we’re going to continue with this shape then one of them probably needs to be benched.

I do think that of Lennon is after another midfielder and winger and not a centre half. He's going to go with 2 centre half and 2 wingers.

Could play 4-2-3-1

Marciano

SDG
Eye
Hanlon
Stevenson

Slivka
Mallan

Boyle
Hyndman
Pongy

Kamberi

Again with this formation and these players it's easy interchangeable to different formations during a game

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Originally Posted by Scooter

I do think that of Lennon is after another midfielder and winger and not a centre half. He's going to go with 2 centre half and 2 wingers.

Could play 4-2-3-1

Marciano

SDG
Eye
Hanlon
Stevenson

Slivka
Mallan

Boyle
Hyndman
Pongy

Kamberi

Again with this formation and these players it's easy interchangeable to different formations during a game

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I get what you're saying but where do you fit in MacLaren and Shaw

I don't have the answer, but what it does show is the variety of options open to Lenny. The best Hibs teams I saw previous to this (since I narrowly missed out on the TTs in their pomp) were the best ones built by McLeish and Mowbray but they virtually picked themselves and there was little strength in depth. When you consider Lenny has apparently said he'd like another wide player and midfielder, he's obviously not scared to give himself difficult decisions to make. And this is after the departures of Dylan & SJM.

SDG came closest to scoring last night. He has bundles of energy at the moment.

I understand the conundrum but I don’t think we can afford to drop our Captain right now.

Possible we could go 3-4-3 with big Marv and Mallan in the middle but that might leave Flo isolated. I’d fancy Danny Swanson on the left of a front 3, he’s unpredictable and could unsettle Molde.

Keeper (whoever is fit, they are all good)

Efe Ryan PH

SDG Marv Mallan Lewis

Boyle Flo Danny

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Originally Posted by J-C

I get what you're saying but where do you fit in MacLaren and Shaw

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Depending on who you where playing and how u wanted to play. Maclaren could go in place of Hyndman and played slightly further forward

Said it in another thread just recently but to start talking about changing what has been our most successful system in years simply because 2 players who would accommodate the same place in the formation are playing well would be ludicrous, neither Boyle nor Gray is a good enough player to think about changing formation simply to shoehorn them both in. Yes we have to adaptable throughout the season and I have no doubts we will play other formations and systems, but as long as we are playing well and winning games with the 3-5-2 it should remain our go-to tactic and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

David Gray IMO was MOTM last night, not Boyle. I see what the OP is saying though because Boyle was ineffective last night for me. there were one or two flashes where he got the ball and ran at his defenders and they looked petrified. He isn't a striker so playing in that space is a waste of a jersey almost.

Particularly against top sides which Molde are, our back 5 first and foremost need to be able to defend. Without Grayin there last night I fear they would have torn us to pieces – even more so inthe 2^nd leg. He’s also, as mentioned above an excellent out ball. Theamount of times the ball was, or could have been sprayed out to him allowing usto open them up was endless.

I think as others mentioned as well, the season is long andhard. SDG isn’t going to complete a whole season so there will be times when,if we play the 3 CB’s he wont be needed but there’s also times where a third CBwont be needed and he reverts to RB so its a squad game.

Maybe we need to give Boyle a free role in these games becausehis pace is so important

I personally think David Gray would be a great candidate for the right sided centre back spot, in the Azpilicueta mould.

More than comfortable when drawn out wide, and can focus on defensive aspects which he is best at.

However one of Porteous/McGregor loses out, with Ambrose moving to the middle of the 3.

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

You could, and I don’t think we should do that either. As I said in another post, if Lennon needs to make a tough call and leave someone out then so be it.

Although he’s not fully fit, I think Flo also needs his mate back beside him.

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Was really surprised this never happened last night !

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Originally Posted by SideBurns

I don't have the answer, but what it does show is the variety of options open to Lenny. The best Hibs teams I saw previous to this (since I narrowly missed out on the TTs in their pomp) were the best ones built by McLeish and Mowbray but they virtually picked themselves and there was little strength in depth. When you consider Lenny has apparently said he'd like another wide player and midfielder, he's obviously not scared to give himself difficult decisions to make. And this is after the departures of Dylan & SJM.

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I was going to mention McLeish actually because in our third season back up he signed both De La Cruz and Alen Orman, and tried to play both in the same team. They'd often make the same runs and try to occupy the same spaces, and it didn't really work.

As you say, we have real quality throughout the squad, which means there will always be very good players missing out. That's what we want though.

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Originally Posted by .Sean.

You could say the same with shoehorning Boyle in as a centre forward though when playing Gray on the right

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To be fair, Boyle started off as a centre forward at Montrose and played there for Dundee.

We are at best with 3 at the back imo.

I think we can play Boyle and gray but for that to happen Boyle will need to adapt and learn to play a bit more centrally. I’d like to see him be given a totally free role picking the ball up on each wing etc.

Another point I’d like to make is I think daz is 100% the weak spot in our defence. As much as I love him as a player and what he has done for the club and the way he carries himself, I don’t think it’s a coincidence we’ve kept 2 clean sheets on the bounce with him not in the team.

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Originally Posted by Stevie Reid

I was going to mention McLeish actually because in our third season back up he signed both De La Cruz and Alen Orman, and tried to play both in the same team. They'd often make the same runs and try to occupy the same spaces, and it didn't really work.

As you say, we have real quality throughout the squad, which means there will always be very good players missing out. That's what we want though.

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The McLeish team I was thinking of didn't contain either of those players, but I totally agree - Orman and De La Cruz just seemed to get in each other's road!

Excited about the quality in the squad and Hyndman's wee cameo at the end was very promising. One thing I'd say about the conundrum on the right is that SDG has to play in current form.

Could Boyle play behind the strikers in a free role?

Bogdan

Efe
Porteous
Hanlon

Gray (RWB)
Mallan (CM)
Boyle(AM free role)
Marv(DM)
Stevenson (LWB)

Flo
Jamie

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Originally Posted by Hibby Kay-Yay

Could Boyle play behind the strikers in a free role?

Bogdan

Efe
Porteous
Hanlon

Gray (RWB)
Mallan (CM)
Boyle(AM free role)
Marv(DM)
Stevenson (LWB)

Flo
Jamie

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This is what I would go for with Boyle in a free role.

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Originally Posted by Cocaine&Caviar

I personally think David Gray would be a great candidate for the right sided centre back spot, in the Azpilicueta mould.

More than comfortable when drawn out wide, and can focus on defensive aspects which he is best at.

However one of Porteous/McGregor loses out, with Ambrose moving to the middle of the 3.

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The problem with that is that Efe is (generally) excellent where he is. I don't think he'd be anywhere as good in the middle of the 3, and he's not as good as part of a two or at RB. Having Efe and Hanlon able to go forward from those two roles with a stopper covering them is a very handy unit. Efe is one of our best players (quite possibly our best) in the current formation, which suits him.

I should also say that after a very ropey start I think we've defended very well for the last 3 and a half games (one minor slip from Efe in Greece aside).


It's tough because 3-5-2 has served us very well - the only problems with it are that we are struggling to accommodate both David Gray and Martin Boyle, it doesn't always suit Marvin Bartley, we can't play attacking wingers as well as full backs and that we're yet to resolve the midfield post-McGinn and McGeouch.

I wouldn't be in a rush to change it, and I'd just be accepting that we need to rotate our squad and have good players rested occasionally.

Injury, suspension and form will take care of decisions down the line.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

The problem with that is that Efe is (generally) excellent where he is. I don't think he'd be anywhere as good in the middle of the 3, as part of a two or at RB. Having Efe and Hanlon able to go forward from those two roles with a stopper covering them is a very handy unit.

I should also say that after a very ropey start I think we've defended very well for the last 3 and a half games (one minor slip from Efe in Greece aside).


It's tough because 3-5-2 has served us very well - the only problems with it are that we are struggling to accommodate both David Gray and Martin Boyle, it doesn't always suit Marvin Bartley, we can't play attacking wingers as well as full backs and that we're yet to resolve the midfield post-McGinn and McGeouch.

I wouldn't be in a rush to change it, and I'd just be accepting that we need to rotate our squad and have good players rested occasionally.

Injury, suspension and form will take care of decisions down the line.

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Agree with all of this. Having too much quality for the first XI, especially when we've still some big transfer business to do, is a lovely problem to have; i.e. not a problem at all.

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Originally Posted by Hibby Kay-Yay

Could Boyle play behind the strikers in a free role?

Bogdan

Efe
Porteous
Hanlon

Gray (RWB)
Mallan (CM)
Boyle(AM free role)
Marv(DM)
Stevenson (LWB)

Flo
Jamie

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No. Slivka and Swanson would both be better at that. Boyle is a winger, plain and simple. He should be played there or not at all. MacLaren and Shaw both better strikers.

Could Gray play sweeper in a back 3?


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It’ll be horses for courses.Strange how a week ago there were plenty complaining about a threadbare squad and now it’s all about how we are going to get all the good players into the team.

Seems to me pace is very important and Boyle is much quicker than Gray but not as strong.I think it’s always a mistake to fit players in rather than a straightforward choice.Sorry to be a bore but years ago Danny McGrain was as near to being the best right back in the world as made no difference but Scotland often played him left back so that Sandy Jardine(a good player but that’s it)could play on the right.As a result the team suffered.

3-5-2 works for us. Both Ambrose and Hanlon are comfortable bringing the ball out and adding an extra man to midfield.

For me it isn't Boyle vs Gray but Gray vs Maclaren. In games where we expect to dominate possession I'd play Boyle at RWB and have Maclaren up front with Kamberi. In games where we need to be more defensive it would be Gray at RWB and the pace of Boyle alongside Kamberi.