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Radio Scotland breaking news that Dunfermline players have not been paid their full wages. Having worked in Dunfermiline and also seen them bring 4 or 5000 fans to ER in the past, I have to say I'm puzzled by their poor crowds this season.
Who remembers the 3-3 draw at East End on the opening day of the season in the mid 80's? Must have been 12000 there that day. The same fixture a few weeks ago attracted about half that with the majority Hibs fans.
They should be docked 10 points with immediate effect.:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
Sure I can remember getting done at home by them in the league cup when they brought scads of fans through. Was it 1-4? Anyways, I think that the 80k that Der Hun owe them, that they may only get a fraction of now, might tip them over.
At this rate we might be lucky to get a 10 team SPL!!
I used to work beside a Pars fan and he said that so many of them had given up because they knew the club just would never be anything other than relegation candidates nowadays and the fact that they never played decent passing football. All seems a bit strange, They do seem to have lost a lot of fans. St Johnstone too, I remember a sell out up there when Houchy was sent off and the day they brought a huge crowd to ER for Blobby's first game. Now they're lucky to get 2,500 and they're top 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
If we are really lucky 9:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 Mickey Weir
The vermin still owe the Pars money don't they? I point the blame firmly at Ipox.
Perhaps playing each other 4 times, £25+ a ticket, too much football on tv is taking its toll everywhere. 16/18 team Premier League, playing twice with summer football. Restriction on tv games etc required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiber-nation
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Originally Posted by bighairyfaeleith
10 POINTS - is that all !!!!
or is that enough to save us !!! :greengrin
This saddens me greatly, knowing they've been shafted by Rangers big style over their ticket money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
The Pars fans will have to start to turn up again in numbers if they want to do something to save them.
They used to have a terrific support but sadly numbers have dwindled on a high scale.
I remember that game you mentioned, would it have been '86 or '87 ? We had a big support there that day too.
Probably my favourite away day in the past, I hope they're ok.
Agreed mate, I blame theamount of premiership coverage, seems to be a lot of folk 'support' premiership teams now whereas I imagine a lot of these people may have supported the likes of dunfermline and st johnstone in the pastQuote:
Originally Posted by wazoo1875
I heard dunfy have club debts of 9.5m
Defo mate, however I think the saturated coverage of every old firm game against anyone has even more to do with it. Too many folks not happy to watch a team that cannae win every week seems to put them off. Football clubs should be a huge part of local communities and everyone should get behind their local clubs, even if it's for half a dozen games a season. Also I blame parents to a certain extent, when I was growing up there is no way my old man would've let me follow anyone other than Hibs. Nowadays it seems people just buy their kids any strip they fancy, knowing that they'll never see the inside of said clubs stadium. Rupert Murdoch is the main culprit though, football in this country is dying a death of a thousand cuts and it's sad to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Meanwhile the administrators at ibrox continue to drag their heels over cutting costs e.g. by laying off staff, thus reducing the funds that will be available to creditors like dunfermline.
There's more than a good chance of them going under in the next year or two IMHO.
The reason they are struggling is they have average crowds similar to Crewe Alexandria but have to compete with Celtic who have crowds similar to arsenal.
Very sad if this is true, always had a soft spot for the Pars myself. Hope they find a lifeline from somewhere.
Also hope they finish below us, of course......
That 3-3 game was my first ever Hibs game, sure Micky Weir scored. I must have only been 7 or 8, remember it was a cracking sunny day the stadium was packed to the rafters and everyone signing their hearts out. I was totally captivated by it all. Can't imagine a 7 or 8 year old kid being anything other than bored stiff these days. Such a shame.
All part of Rod's plan. We'll win the league by default due to all other teams being in the sticky stuff.
1-3, after extra time, 1989 I think?Quote:
Originally Posted by NORTHERNHIBBY
This post will probably be overlooked by many,but there is a lot of relevant truth in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I'm sure I read somewhere that relegation would actually be a benefit to them as the cost of competing in the SPL in terms of wages etc isn't in keeping with their gate receipts. I always thought TV money might balanced that out and such a suggestion could be quite far fetched but who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875
All part timers paid in full. Full timers paid 60% of wages.
Short term cash flow problem that will be rectified on Monday.
They have informed the SPL of the problem. I think they have done this to maybe force their hand in giving them the money out of any funds Rangers may be due from the SPL.
Losses from year 460k. And that was the year they were promoted!!!!!!
Its time clubs realised that the fans can't afford to pay £30 to £45 for a father and son to go to football anymore. I don't know if we need the telly money now, it doesn't seem to be that lucrative anymore. TV companies have us by the proverbials, because they know there's not that much demand for Scottish football on the box anywhere else.
Its ridiculous. Motherwell game was a great crowd last week, 8k for a midweek game is fantastic for Motherwell nowadays! theres no way they would have had that if the prices were the norm.
Ok, maybe bringing prices down doesn't guarantee bumper crowds, but I know it makes a lot of difference to the do I/don't I Saturday afternoon options for a lot of fans. I might be willing to go to more games at £22 for me, but when your adding a child on to that at £12 or £14 it becomes a bit of a heavy financial burden.
Eg - Hearts game at £28/£14 + £3 "booking fee" ........ thats a no bad pair of trainers right there! :confused:
Dunfermline/Fife isn't exactly a booming economy right now......... :rolleyes:
Ross Jack scoring one in off the post at the Dunbar End. The old terracing fairly emptied after that one went in!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesie
One of first games against Dunfy I remember would have been about 85 / 86 in the Scottish Cup with Hibs winning 2-0. They had a great support through and iirc the crowd as about 15k. Great atmosphere that day
I was over in Dunfermline , shopping with the wife before we got a Primark, It was wall to wall Old Firm strips in the town, and I would guess 2 hun jerseys for every Hoops top.
I thought to myself then, what chance does a team like Pars have, all the youth supporting the bigot brothers, and the local team discarded by glory hunters that probably never go to a game.
Rangers extinction may give real football clubs a chance.
Surely Rangers "extinction" is a fanciful idea? I just fail to see a scenario despite it all that "extinction" would occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Suppose your right, there are some diseases that can never be eradicated, a financially ham-strung Huns owned by a consortium of morons who hate each others guts might just have to do. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by VivaPalmeiras
I live and work in the Dunfermline area and it sickens me the old firm dominance. In my work (a large call centre) I can think of about 5 Dunfermline fans, with only about 2 of them going to regular matches. There is 2 other hibbys, they don't go to ER, 2 raith fans, 1 of which goes to games, then the rest are armchair OF fans. Think they know everything about Scottish football and are diehard fans because they watch their team every other week on the tv.
That was a great game Frazer, Beedie scored IIRC, next again away game was away to Morton, also 3 3, Im sure Weir scored a couple before he went to Luton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
That's right. Remember thinking Weir was off to a huge English club......Luton!Quote:
Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY
The Scottish Cup game mentioned earlier was great as well. Pars were in the first and brought a cracking support (4-5000). We won 2-0 and I still remember Archie McPherson's commentary when Steve Cowan missed an easy header....."inexplicable ducking of the head". We still say that when ever anyone misses a header! Funny how you can remember all these details from games 25 years ago but can't even remember the score from games last season!
I was living in Luton then and was (and still am) a Luton fan, going to most games around that time. In fairness, Luton were a very good team at that time and pre-premiership money were well capable of competing towards the top of the league. I remember when Mickey came down, I couldn't bring myself to watch as I was disappointed he left Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
Very sad indeed their support for the recent 3-2 game at home was embarressing IMO with part of their stand closed also. Incredible that they have just come up last season to be met with such local apathy as I am sure alot of their season tickets would have been reasonably priced for kids etc. A decent sized town with an excellent relatively recent history in the game who have home crowds of 3k tops should be a huge wake up call for the game in this country.
Wouldn't have this problem if they had given RFC the two finger salute and sold direct and avoid paying commission etc.
Statement on the Pars' website:
Quote:
Due to the continuing delay by the Administrators at Rangers in paying the ticket revenue from the game held at East End Park on 11th February 2012 it has been necessary to part pay the Club's February salaries to all staff including management and players.
Bill Hodgins, Chief Executive said " by Monday all staff will have received 80% of their salary and we will be in a position to pay the remaining balance within ten days.
Our staff are aware that this situation is out with the Clubs control and they have been extremely understanding and supportive. In the meantime the Scottish Premier League are in constant dialogue with the Administrator at Rangers in order to try and secure payment of our ticket income of £84,000 that was due on 21st February 2012."
I am tempted to say "that's business for you".
In all insolvencies, there are casualties. It's not just the owners and employees of the failed business, but their suppliers as well, who lose out. DAFC are a clear example of this, but such cases happen all the time in other industries. It's a risk, and these days an substantial one, that is a fact of business life.
The trick, if you can manage it, is to anticipate such events, and plan for them in a way that minimises your potential loss. For example, in the SPL situation, I can see most clubs adopting the "direct-sale" approach that Hibs and Hearts have used recently. Also, a "retention of title" clause, if that's possible, in player transfers.
They'll be struggling to pay March salaries as well because they don't have any games after Saturday for three weeks.
Surely the SPL can help as these are extraordinary circumstances. They should be able to take money out of RFC's Prize Money for coming second/third whatever which would be paid at the end of the season and give it to DAFC and DUFC now. Why should other clubs be pulled down because of them.
I know some Hearts fans believe this will happen as they claim there is a clause in the SPL rule book that protects them if RFC don't come up with the readies when the next transfer instalment is due. Has anyone seen any evidence to back up their claims ?
There is precedent, in that the SPL advanced Gretna's prize money.Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyh
But why should Rangers pay for poor financial management by Dunfermline?; it's not Rangers fault that they have lost £1.5m over the past two seasons.
To be fair losing £1.5M over the last two seasons is not the reason the players havent been paid. Its because another SPL Club has not paid them what they are due that has caused this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Rangers are not being asked to bail them out. They are being asked to pay what is due to alllow them to go about their business.
EVERYTHING is rangers fault:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
NEVER forget that. :greengrin
MON THE LIQUIDATORS AND HMRC
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Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw
Bad isn't it - these people (in football terms at least) are nothing but a shower of ham-shankers and worthy of everybody's contempt. But they are actually in the majority in the likes of Dunfermline!
Nae wonder the Scottish game is dying on it's feet. Have a look down south and you'll find provincial towns like Sunderland where the team has next to no chance at glory and yet they are faithfully and proudly backed by the whole town. As described above, it was closer to that up here in the past - where did it all go wrong :confused:
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Originally Posted by Bad Martini
After a few minutes reflection, you're not far wrong.
I was there with my Dad and Brother, great atmosphere and a brilliant hot sunny day - IIRC we went a goal down early doors before equalising just before half time and going 2-1 immediately after the second half started. Think I can remember Kano and Weir scoring for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazerbob
It all went wrong in 1988 or just before, David Murray went on his ego trip bought the hun and won 9 in a row(I think Dundee Utd had won the top division once and Aberdeen three? times since 1980 so competition was there, and of course Hearts near miss in 86).Quote:
Originally Posted by basehibby
I was quite young at the time (10 in 88) but remember Celtc were not that strong at all and Rangers were throwing money about. This was the catalyst for a resurgent Celtc (who before Fergus McCan where actually just an average Scottish football team IIRC)
Those 2 had access to funding no-one else could match and ever since we have seen a slow, gradual decline in the Scottish game, unbalanced and bias in formation and everything else to keep the OF juggernaut fuelled. Thats my take on it anyway.
IMO of course, but we must change the way Scottish football works or teams like Dunfermline will keep having to live on OF life support. Totally unhealthy and killing the Scottish game completely. Short term pain needed, again IMO but I think anyone thinking Scottish football needs Rangers is off their head.
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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Obviously Pars were expecting anbd would have budgeted ~100K in their cashflow projections this month from RFC when fixtures were anounced. Pars have overestimated crowds in the SPL and have made problems for themselves as a result but they are owed £100K, why should they lose any more money when this part of their increasing debt is not their fault.
True of most of Fife.Quote:
Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw
Makes their business in January (adding four players and only letting one go) look a bit bonkers if they were sailing that close to the wind.Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyh
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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
Kenny H above is right - this is a cash flow issue not a P&L issue. Given that they were looking like joint favourites for relegation they may well have calculated cashflow to the end of the season and worked out what extra they could spend on their attempt to avoid it.
08/08/1987 Dunfermline 3 Hibs 3 then two weeks later we drew with Morton (a) again 3-3. Remember both games well.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo1875
Not a fair comparison. Sunderland have a population of 290k compaired to about 40000 people in Dunfermline.Quote:
Originally Posted by basehibby
A better comparison would be Yeovil with a similar population. How many kids in Yeovil would be wearing Yeovil town strips as opposed to man u, Liverpool, Bristol or Portsmouth strips?
Are the Pars in danger of going into administration?
If that's the case I for one don't want Rangers to pay.
A quick 10 point deduction, goodbye Dunfermline, hello safety for Hibs.
Done.
J
The Pars are a decent club, I would not like them to go into administration even though it may benefit us. I would rather we dug out our own mess tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bristolhibby
Although they may be a decent club just now it is not long since they were outbidding Hibs for players like Stevie Crawford and Craig Brewster. In the process doing much better than us. Half way through the second season of doing this they had to re-negotiate contracts with the players giving them a wage cut. I still find it difficult to have sympathy with clubs living above their means.Quote:
Originally Posted by EuanH78
Also they don't contribute to the wider good of the Scottish game. Can't think of the last youngster to come through the ranks at Dumfermline. Finally Jim McIntyre scored the winning goal 2 seasons in a row in the Scottish Cup semi (Dundee Utd and Dumfermline) so no sympathy.
Agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
The time for sentamentality is when we are sitting second, CL place secured and a Scottish Cup final to win against Kilmarnock.
Not when we are second bottom, and 3 points above Dunfermline.
If them entering administration saves Hibs from relegation then there is no decision IMO.
J
Lots of clubs have, at some point, lived beyond their means, us included. I just think in the grand scheme of Scottish football, Dunfermline are one of the good guys and wouldnt like to see them in serious trouble. That we are in a relegation dogfight with them right now is immaterial to my position (I believe we will be ok on our own steam anyway) so feel we can afford some sympathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
if the investigation into players contracts goes against rangers then surely they wont be entitled to any prize money regardless of what position they finishQuote:
Originally Posted by kennyh
:dunno:
rather sadly this is a common occurence across the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw
i sat a while ago with a group of old firm fans at work and i asked how many old firm games they had been to, none was the reply from them all
:greengrin
I'm playing Devil's Advocate, of course, but DAFC must have heard the gossip about RFC earlier in the season. It wouldn't have been beyond them to do what we did with Hearts, and get the money themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyh
Yeah, I know, 50/50 hindsight.....
Roasting day if i remember.im sure we went behind then took the lead only to lose it near the end.great days of falling down the hill from the train station and a sesh in the elizabethan.remember the pars fans saying without mickey weir we were punchless.sure enough he was suspended for the return game and we were 4-0 up before half time.the pars fans still came into ets after the game for a drink.great bunch of fans only wish other teams fans(cough hertz and gers)behaved as well as they do/did.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo1875
This proves ... if proof were needed ..... that its time for the total insanity of clubs relying on income from OF games to end.
One of the previous posters made a good point about supporting your local club. As far as I am aware if you go out in Newcastle with a Man Utd top on you had better do it in the dark and wear a bloody big coat over it.
There is nothing wrong with supporting a team from another town in its self. But what is annoying is the fact that all of these folk spouting the " I have a right to support who I want " peeash always seem to want to support the OF or Man Utd ... you dont see thousands flocking to Glasgow every weekend to see Partick Thistle ....... and they wonder why we call them glory hunters.
Fans ( I use the term in its loosest possible sense ) like that are killing clubs like Dunfermline and there is no doubt that the saturation coverage of the likes of the OF and Man Utd on TV has made the situation a hundred times worse than it ever was.
So good luck to Dunfermline and the real fans who support them ..... lets hope Scottish football gets its bloody act together before we lose a great club with a great history, be that Dunfermline or any other club.
Why blame it on Rupert Murdoch? or anyone for that matter? but that is the way nowadays...blame it on someone else! when it is down to the individual really!, everyone under a certain age seems to have this stupid ridiculas celelbrity loving culture and visions of granduer!...regardless if they can afford it or not...star struck and following others like sheep! by supporting something because they are winning! glory hunters if you like! so the same goes in football supporting terms...materialistic! even if they cant afford it!Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo1875
Maybe there should be a law-you can only support a team within 25 miles of your home? Do you think that'd help?Quote:
Originally Posted by BOVRIL
Hmmmm, I'll have to choose between: Hibs, hearts, Motherwell, Falkirk, Livingston, dunfermline, airdrie united,albion rovers........ You get the point I'm trying to make?
Incidentally, my second team is FCB from the Camp Nou and has been since the mid 90's
Glory hunter? . Maybe-but if you followed Hibs through the 90's I'd be surprised if you'd grudge me a bit of happiness.
I especially enjoyed being at Wembley last May to see the master class against the bitter mancs :-)
I support Brazil because they win things and play great football. I stay in Scotland but I don't care...I want some glory!:flag:
I genuinely despair. I'll give Scottish football another 15 years to live.
fifteen years??? Blimey, thats long term planning!
In my mind you are only a supporter if you go to the games of said team and provide your support to the club both financially and vocally. If you simply look on from afar creaming yourself over the success of another team you are a fan of that team no more.
Yeh I get your point. But my post said that I was OK with folk supporting a team from outwith their local area, but the point being that in 90% of cases that team always just happens to be the one who wins stuff all the time. Folk choosing a different team I can live with, glory hunting I cant.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianmc
It used to be about local pride ..... I'm from Edinburgh and bloody proud of it, part of that pride is supporting my local team, hell it could have been the yams. My stepson was born in Edinburgh and supports the yams and apart from him being a smelly yam jobby I'm glad that he supports an Edinburgh club and not one of the OF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOVRIL
Sums it up perfectly for me.
I don't have a problem with someone from Edinburgh or the Lothians supporting Hearts, but - rightly or wrongly - I have a problem with any Old Firm supporter who lives more than twenty miles from Glasgow.
A couple of years ago in holiday in Portugal, we met a friendly couple, with kids, from Peterhead, with thick Buchan accents. It didn't take long before the dad started talking about Rangers and how great they were. I asked if he was originally from Glasgow? No, no connection just the great Glasgow Rangers. Why not support Peterhead, or even Aberdeen then? A snort of derision was the answer. My wife, smelling trouble on the way, kicked me under the table. I dutifully shut up, but avoided him like the plague for the rest of the holiday.
It is for people like him that I hope, probably forlornly, that Rangers go to the wall and dissappear forever.
:flamed:
Damn.....how much are houses in Leith looks like I'll have to flit :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by brianmc
Could you not make it 45 miles?
I think it was last season a few clubs told the OF to stick their plans to charge a 5 % admin fee to home clubs for them selling T's to their own fans or away matches. Lots of clubs said no chance but I think only 3 of us refused and decided to set up our own selling arrangement. This was ahead of this seasons tax issues became THE talking point. To me the SPL should redirect funds to Pars to cover the shortage and the SFA should do the same for United who are also around 100k out of pocket for the SC tie. The SFA can get the cash back from 1690RFC or whatever they call themselves next season or refuse them entry to the SC. I don't know if they can block entry to the SPL or SFL but they can make it difficult for 1690.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Notice the crowd was 3523 yesterday. Would thought more would have wanted to be there in view of their plight.
It's not so much a sign of Dunfermline relying on the OF, if it was any of the visiting teams that bring a good support - take your pick from the sheep, us, the Yams, and the OF, and we never paid them what they were due, they'd be in the same nick. It was income they were expecting but it didn't come and that's what caused the issue with the wages.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOVRIL
If Rangers weren't about then Dunfermline and the other clubs would have set their budget expectations a bit lower and cut their cloth accordingly. Their players would have been paid if it was any other team provided they actually paid up.
Guess me and the ginger guy above will have to get a flat together down Leith way :-)
I was sitting in the Thistle Centre in Stirling a few years ago whilst the other half was spending money. Young female about eight sat down beside me with a hun top on. I asked her how she thought rangers would get on that night ( a European game). She didn't even know they were playing. Then she told me she only wore it because her dad made her. Sad. I should add that I am not in the habit of speaking to random 8 year old females :-)
The radio said there was around 1000 Motherwell fans.......poor show from the Pars fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
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Originally Posted by Frazerbob
And considering the huge turnout from Rangers fans to help them through the bad times (as announced on another thread), that means the Pars support was only about 1,500 :wink:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17225672
Great gesture from the administrator. Being cynical you could view this as a way of ensuring there is no bad feelings when the phoenix club has to be voted in to the SPL.
Do the administrators have the power to selectively pay off some creditors at the expense of others?Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyh
I am not arguing about Dunfermline being paid, but why not Dundee United or even Hearts?
I don't think they do, JGL, and I mentioned this on the other thread. If I were the Revenue, Hearts or the wee plumber down the road, I'd be kicking up about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
The story has just been repeated on BBC news and not a hint that it might be illegal. Just don't get it, how can they possibly have agreeed this single payment? As a tax payer, I want the tax bill paid in full before any other debts are paid :rules::rules:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I wouldn;t expect the BBC, or the Record etc, to be clued-up on technical matters like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
It was suggested on the other thread that perhaps the admins think that the rules here are the same as in England... ie that football debts have preferred status.