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18Hibee75
03-04-2017, 01:38 PM
All over the country and the world there are players who claim to support the team they play for and say "it's a dream come true" but then leave as soon as a bigger offer comes in. After speaking about this with a pal, I was wondering if how many of you would leave Hibs to play for Celtic or even a club in the EPL like an Everton or someone.

Personally, I genuinely think that I would stay playing for Hibs as it is the team that I genuinely support through and through. I also feel like most footballers, (maybe bar Darren Mcgregor or a story like his) never really seriously supported a club when they were younger as they would've dedicated every Saturday to playing football, rather than watching their team.

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Baader
03-04-2017, 01:41 PM
All over the country and the world there are players who claim to support the team they play for and say "it's a dream come true" but then leave as soon as a bigger offer comes in. After speaking about this with a pal, I was wondering if how many of you would leave Hibs to play for Celtic or even a club in the EPL like an Everton or someone.

Personally, I genuinely think that I would stay playing for Hibs as it is the team that I genuinely support through and through. I also feel like most footballers, (maybe bar Darren Mcgregor or a story like his) never really seriously supported a club when they were younger as they would've dedicated every Saturday to playing football, rather than watching their team.

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The reality is money talks though and when your career is only ever a bad tackle away from being over - and even at your very best it's likely to end about 30 years before the average man retires - it's not difficult to see why someone offering 3, 4 even 10 times your salary is taken up.

Sammy7nil
03-04-2017, 01:43 PM
I would definitely leave for a better team and wages.

I would still support Hibs and there will be plenty time to attend games when I retire with my mega bucks from me BIG move

18Hibee75
03-04-2017, 01:46 PM
The reality is money talks though and when your career is only ever a bad tackle away from being over - and even at your very best it's likely to end about 30 years before the average man retires - it's not difficult to see why someone offering 3, 4 even 10 times your salary is taken up.
I can certainly see the temptation.

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Baader
03-04-2017, 01:51 PM
I can certainly see the temptation.

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Can often mean the difference between having to seek a career after football and not having to worry about money after the boots are hung up. It can't be easy.

Like you say a lot of these guys are playing when we are watching so although they can be fans they're not really comparable to the die hards who attend every week.

Diclonius
03-04-2017, 01:56 PM
How many players in our current team (British/Irish) based have known "boyhood" teams? This is who I'm aware of:

Gray: Hearts
Hanlon: Hibs
Fontaine: ?
Bartley: Reading?
McGinn: Celtic
Fyvie: Aberdeen?
Holt: ?
McGeouch: Celtic
Stanton: Hibs?
Handling: Hibs?
McLean: Rangers? (his brother is rumoured to be a former ST holder)
Stevenson: Raith
Boyle: ?
Keatings: Celtic?
Shinnie: Rangers
Forster: ? (born in Gorgie but doesn't support Hearts)
McGregor: Hibs
Humphrey: ?
Graham: ?
Laidlaw: ?
Gallacher: ?
Harris: Hibs?
Cummings: Hearts
Crane: ?
Martin: Hibs?
Allan: ?
Shaw: ?
Insall: ?

SirDavidsNapper
03-04-2017, 01:56 PM
I love Hibs but id leave to go to a bigger club on triple the wages 100%

Killiehibbie
03-04-2017, 02:00 PM
I'd take the money.

Kato
03-04-2017, 02:04 PM
All over the country and the world there are players who claim to support the team they play for and say "it's a dream come true" but then leave as soon as a bigger offer comes in. After speaking about this with a pal, I was wondering if how many of you would leave Hibs to play for Celtic or even a club in the EPL like an Everton or someone.

Personally, I genuinely think that I would stay playing for Hibs as it is the team that I genuinely support through and through. I also feel like most footballers, (maybe bar Darren Mcgregor or a story like his) never really seriously supported a club when they were younger as they would've dedicated every Saturday to playing football, rather than watching their team.

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Stay at Hibs on 3000 a week or go to Stoke for 40,000 a week? :hmmm:

jgl07
03-04-2017, 02:05 PM
I recall reading that when Celtic representatives went around to the home of Kenny Dalglish with a view to signing him, he rapidly ripped all the Rangers pictures from his bedroom walls before they arrived!

Just Jimmy
03-04-2017, 02:05 PM
To be honest I'd watch another team every week if they gave me 10 times my salary. I'd still support Hibs but money talks.

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patlowe
03-04-2017, 02:09 PM
All over the country and the world there are players who claim to support the team they play for and say "it's a dream come true" but then leave as soon as a bigger offer comes in. After speaking about this with a pal, I was wondering if how many of you would leave Hibs to play for Celtic or even a club in the EPL like an Everton or someone.

Personally, I genuinely think that I would stay playing for Hibs as it is the team that I genuinely support through and through. I also feel like most footballers, (maybe bar Darren Mcgregor or a story like his) never really seriously supported a club when they were younger as they would've dedicated every Saturday to playing football, rather than watching their team.

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You are right and to be honest I think even Darren would say the same about his boys football days - every Saturday is focused on your own football so the club you support fades into the background somewhat. However, it is a nice narrative when signing for a club to be able to say you support them, and if you have grown up in the local community there are obvious social and emotional ties regardless. You have to look at the bigger picture for players, particularly in Scotland, where for the vast majority the money on offer over a short career is not going to set you (and your family) up for life. However, a move to Rangers/Celtic or beyond could. Feelings for a particular club can't take precedence over a person's career and future financial security IMO, great as it is seeing guys like Griffiths, Daz and Deek line up for Hibs!

Navids Numpties
03-04-2017, 02:09 PM
Would 100% take the money. I love my job but if someone was offering me twice the money it's a no brainer and any one who says no is lying. At the end of the day footballers want to do the best for their families and earn more for themselves as well. It is their living after all.

Since90+2
03-04-2017, 02:13 PM
If a club , and any club for that matter , offered me 5 times the wages that Hibs were offering me I would sign for them in a heartbeat. At the end of the day its a career and it would not stop me from supporting the club my playing career finished in your mid 30s.

Andy74
03-04-2017, 02:14 PM
I think I'd draw the line at playing for Rangers. Maybe Hearts too.

The Sundance Kid
03-04-2017, 02:22 PM
How many players in our current team (British/Irish) based have known "boyhood" teams? This is who I'm aware of:

Gray: Hearts
Hanlon: Hibs
Fontaine: ?
Bartley: Reading?
McGinn: Celtic
Fyvie: Aberdeen?
Holt: ?
McGeouch: Celtic
Stanton: Hibs?
Handling: Hibs?
McLean: Rangers? (his brother is rumoured to be a former ST holder)
Stevenson: Raith
Boyle: ?
Keatings: Celtic?
Shinnie: Rangers
Forster: ? (born in Gorgie but doesn't support Hearts)
McGregor: Hibs
Humphrey: ?
Graham: ?
Laidlaw: ?
Gallacher: ?
Harris: Hibs?
Cummings: Hearts
Crane: ?
Martin: Hibs?
Allan: ?
Shaw: ?
Insall: ?

Fontaine is a Crystal Palace fan, Bartley's Arsenal, Holt I'm guessing is Carlisle, Handling was a Rangers fan growing up, Boyle and Shinnie I think were both Aberdeen fans, Forster was definitely a Celtic fan, think Graham is as well and Shaw is a Hibee. Don't know about the rest

Since90+2
03-04-2017, 02:30 PM
Scott Martin is from Glasgow so dont imagine he is a Hibee.

The Sundance Kid
03-04-2017, 02:37 PM
Scott Martin is from Glasgow so dont imagine he is a Hibee.

Pretty sure he's a Celtic fan going by his Twitter

Barney McGrew
03-04-2017, 02:38 PM
Scott Martin is from Glasgow so dont imagine he is a Hibee.

He's a Septic fan.

Fyvie and Boyle both grew up as Aberdeen supporters.

seanoheimhin
03-04-2017, 02:52 PM
Thought I'd read somewhere Martin Boyle's family were jambos?

HiBremian
03-04-2017, 03:42 PM
Simple calculation. Sign for Hibs as a teenager, as my value rockets agree to a 4 year contract at the age of 20. Sign a 4 year deal for Barcelona at age 22 on 100k a week, netting Hibs a juicy 8m transfer fee. Stash away 50% of my post-tax earnings, let the contract run down, and sign again for Hibs on a free at 26 when I'm at the peak of my powers. Live off the pension pot I've created at Barca for the rest of my life and become a Hibs legend. Oh, and never have to buy a pint again. :-)


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snooky
03-04-2017, 03:53 PM
Steve Bull :not worth ..... end of story.

BSEJVT
03-04-2017, 04:19 PM
I think I'd draw the line at playing for Rangers. Maybe Hearts too.

As did my son and I

When he was a young boy Hearts asked him to train with them and before I could even say no he did!

I was also asked to get involved with coaching their youth teams about 15 years ago and declined.

I couldn't face the thought of someone I had helped develop helping them in any shape or form

Diclonius
03-04-2017, 04:21 PM
Updated.

Gray: Hearts
Hanlon: Hibs
Fontaine: Crystal Palace
Bartley: Arsenal
McGinn: Celtic
Fyvie: Aberdeen
Holt: Carlisle
McGeouch: Celtic
Stanton: Hibs?
Handling: Rangers
McLean: Rangers? (his brother is rumoured to be a former ST holder)
Stevenson: Raith
Boyle: Aberdeen
Keatings: Celtic?
Shinnie: Aberdeen
Forster: Celtic
McGregor: Hibs
Humphrey: ?
Graham: Celtic
Laidlaw: ?
Gallacher: ?
Harris: Hibs?
Cummings: Hearts
Crane: ?
Martin: Celtic
Allan: ?
Shaw: Hibs
Insall: ?

lyonhibs
03-04-2017, 04:36 PM
For the right offer to a club outwith Scotland, I'd be off in a shot.

Otherwise, no way.

bigwheel
03-04-2017, 04:52 PM
As soon as you become a professional footballer, it becomes your career, your job....you will have a different relationship with the game than any fan...they don't go to "training" they go to "work".

All of them have to do the best to play at the highest level they can and to secure their future through their earnings as much as possible....

No professional player at Scottish level can afford to turn down 3-5+ times this earnings from any club, Scotland or anywhere else...it's their duty to their family and themselves.

Anyone who says they wouldn't leave Hibs for any other club is dreaming. When it's a job you won't think like that...also don't forget when Hibs are finished with you, they won't care that you were a fan....


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cabbageandribs1875
03-04-2017, 04:56 PM
Stay at Hibs on 3000 a week or go to Stoke for 40,000 a week? :hmmm:


it's a real toughie eh :hilarious

snooky
03-04-2017, 04:56 PM
As soon as you become a professional footballer, it becomes your career, your job....you will have a different relationship with the game than any fan...they don't go to "training" they go to "work".

All of them have to do the best to play at the highest level they can and to secure their future through their earnings as much as possible....

No professional player at Scottish level can afford to turn down 3-5+ times this earnings from any club, Scotland or anywhere else...it's their duty to their family and themselves.

Anyone who says they wouldn't leave Hibs for any other club is dreaming. When it's a job you won't think like that...also don't forget when Hibs are finished with you, they won't care that you were a fan....


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Exactimondo. Business is business - both ways (unfortunately).

ancient hibee
03-04-2017, 05:05 PM
Stay at Hibs on 3000 a week or go to Stoke for 40,000 a week? :hmmm:


This is why we're missing sitters.Too many personal problems occupying their brains.

WeeRussell
03-04-2017, 05:24 PM
Not going to pretend I'd serve my whole career at Hibs if I had all the talent in the world.

I can 100% guarantee I would never sign for Rangers though.

weecounty hibby
03-04-2017, 05:32 PM
If I had been good enough to play for Hibs and then was wanted by other teams I would definitely have moved. But down south never ever ever to the old firm.

alihibs1
03-04-2017, 05:52 PM
Is Gray really a jambos?

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Since90+2
03-04-2017, 06:29 PM
Is Gray really a jambos?

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He was growing up but I would say it's safe to he has now changed his allegiance (like fatty Robertson I suppose).

Mibbes Aye
03-04-2017, 06:34 PM
As soon as you become a professional footballer, it becomes your career, your job....you will have a different relationship with the game than any fan...they don't go to "training" they go to "work".

All of them have to do the best to play at the highest level they can and to secure their future through their earnings as much as possible....

No professional player at Scottish level can afford to turn down 3-5+ times this earnings from any club, Scotland or anywhere else...it's their duty to their family and themselves.

Anyone who says they wouldn't leave Hibs for any other club is dreaming. When it's a job you won't think like that...also don't forget when Hibs are finished with you, they won't care that you were a fan....


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Good post. It's a job and when one bad tackle can end it then it's common sense to follow the best deal.

Other factors as well. There are certain managers who you would want to play for, others you wouldn't.

And it's a very small world. If you were good enough to get through the ranks and become a first-team player, like Hanlon, then you probably got to know your peers very well through growing up and playing with them at the different age group levels internationally. There's friendships there that will be just as strong as those with your teammates. That's a potential positive in moving to a different club.

More fundamentally, if you are good enough, you will have been relatively limited in your ability to go to Hibs games! You don't have the time to commit as you are playing or training!

hfc rd
03-04-2017, 06:54 PM
I love Hibs but id leave to go to a bigger club on triple the wages 100%


Me too

End of the day, money talks

Sir David Gray
03-04-2017, 06:54 PM
Stay at Hibs on 3000 a week or go to Stoke for 40,000 a week? :hmmm:

More than 150000 a year to play for Hibs? Yes please!

I could easily live off that kind of money.

Since90+2
03-04-2017, 07:00 PM
More than 150000 a year to play for Hibs? Yes please!

I could easily live off that kind of money.

You would be taking home about 90,000 a year after tax and NI which is of course a good salary but it's hardly comparable to becoming a multi millionaire which you would be if you were earning 40,000 a week.

I suspect that if the situation ever became reality for any Hibs fan 99 % would be off. Unfortunately for us it's no going to happen though :greengrin

ColinNish
03-04-2017, 07:00 PM
More than 150000 a year to play for Hibs? Yes please!

I could easily live off that kind of money.

Technically half that coz you'll be paying higher rate tax. 😀

Killiehibbie
03-04-2017, 07:06 PM
Technically half that coz you'll be paying higher rate tax. 😀90 grand about right.

Eyrie
03-04-2017, 07:14 PM
Hibs are one of the best paying clubs in Scotland, so outwith Celtc and Sevco the money on offer elsewhere would be close enough that I'd stay put.

I'll be honest enough to admit that seeing my salary increase three or four times by moving to Celtc or Sevco would be very tempting despite my dislike for both clubs, and going south for that sort of money would be a no-brainer.

That said, I remember just how talented I was in my prime and it's safe to say that the only team I would have played for would have been Hearts. There is no way I could have played for Hibs - I'd still have my own dedicated sub-forum on .net for you to reminisce about just how bad I was.

Sir David Gray
03-04-2017, 07:24 PM
You would be taking home about 90,000 a year after tax and NI which is of course a good salary but it's hardly comparable to becoming a multi millionaire which you would be if you were earning 40,000 a week.

I suspect that if the situation ever became reality for any Hibs fan 99 % would be off. Unfortunately for us it's no going to happen though :greengrin


Technically half that coz you'll be paying higher rate tax. 😀

How do you know the poster I quoted wasn't referring to the wage after tax? :greengrin

Even if it was 90,000 a year after tax, I would be more than happy with that.

Andy74
03-04-2017, 07:29 PM
As soon as you become a professional footballer, it becomes your career, your job....you will have a different relationship with the game than any fan...they don't go to "training" they go to "work".

All of them have to do the best to play at the highest level they can and to secure their future through their earnings as much as possible....

No professional player at Scottish level can afford to turn down 3-5+ times this earnings from any club, Scotland or anywhere else...it's their duty to their family and themselves.

Anyone who says they wouldn't leave Hibs for any other club is dreaming. When it's a job you won't think like that...also don't forget when Hibs are finished with you, they won't care that you were a fan....


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It might be a job but there are companies I wouldn't work for in any circumstances. Football is the same.

Rangers is the obvious one. As an institution it goes against everything I believe in and no cash would allow we to work for them or play for those supporters.

Sir David Gray
03-04-2017, 07:43 PM
It might be a job but there are companies I wouldn't work for in any circumstances. Football is the same.

Rangers is the obvious one. As an institution it goes against everything I believe in and no cash would allow we to work for them or play for those supporters.

I would struggle to play for any Scottish team that had a chance of ever playing against Hibs but I would never play for Sevco, Celtic or Hearts.

I would rather retire than ever sign for any of those three clubs.

Libertine
03-04-2017, 07:46 PM
John Watson Dunfermline legend.sits not that from me in the east stand.never knew he was a hibby

OxoHibby
03-04-2017, 07:46 PM
[QUOTE=bigwheel;4998765]As soon as you become a professional footballer, it becomes your career, your job....you will have a different relationship with the game than any fan...they don't go to "training" they go to "work".

All of them have to do the best to play at the highest level they can and to secure their future through their earnings as much as possible....

No professional player at Scottish level can afford to turn down 3-5+ times this earnings from any club, Scotland or anywhere else...it's their duty to their family and themselves.

Anyone who says they wouldn't leave Hibs for any other club is dreaming. When it's a job you won't think like that...also don't forget when Hibs are finished with you, they won't care that you were a fan....

For me you have hit the nail on the head. When you become a pro footballer it becomes work and the relationship changes. Take KT and everything that happened. By the he had lived the hibs dream and captained the club he supported and was then offered a massive wage rise. That said u also don't get this short career thing and how it entitles today's players to big money. Why shouldn't they work after the end of their career. My career is only as long until I get laud off or sacked

WoreTheGreen
03-04-2017, 07:52 PM
John Watson Dunfermline legend.sits not that from me in the east stand.never knew he was a hibby

Big Winker Watson fae the inch hibby

0762
03-04-2017, 08:38 PM
How many players in our current team (British/Irish) based have known "boyhood" teams? This is who I'm aware of:


McLean: Rangers? (his brother is rumoured to be a former ST holder)



Surely that must be a wind up following the final. Would have thought more chance of the McLean Brothers being Killie fans given their old man played over 500 times for Kilmarnock. Seem to recall Steven McLean officiating a Cup game a few years ago v Ayr Utd and the Somerset fans giving him pelters.

Dunbar Hibee
03-04-2017, 10:21 PM
Thought I'd read somewhere Martin Boyle's family were jambos?

His dad is yeah

SquashedFrogg
03-04-2017, 10:30 PM
As did my son and I

When he was a young boy Hearts asked him to train with them and before I could even say no he did!

I was also asked to get involved with coaching their youth teams about 15 years ago and declined.

I couldn't face the thought of someone I had helped develop helping them in any shape or form

Quite a sad story if I'm being honest. Plenty of Hibs players have started there. Me and and boy are Hibs daft but I'd never put prejudice before my boys future.

Shrekko
03-04-2017, 10:45 PM
Not going to pretend I'd serve my whole career at Hibs if I had all the talent in the world.

I can 100% guarantee I would never sign for Rangers though.

Easy for people to hypothetically say who they wouldn't sign for but the fact our current Mr Hibs played for Rangers and was happy to do so really says it all. There's not one of player who'd turn down the chance if presented- so why would any of us be different if we were players?

Is It On....
03-04-2017, 10:58 PM
Simple calculation. Sign for Hibs as a teenager, as my value rockets agree to a 4 year contract at the age of 20. Sign a 4 year deal for Barcelona at age 22 on 100k a week, netting Hibs a juicy 8m transfer fee. Stash away 50% of my post-tax earnings, let the contract run down, and sign again for Hibs on a free at 26 when I'm at the peak of my powers. Live off the pension pot I've created at Barca for the rest of my life and become a Hibs legend. Oh, and never have to buy a pint again. :-)


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If Carlsberg made careers...

bigwheel
03-04-2017, 11:07 PM
I would struggle to play for any Scottish team that had a chance of ever playing against Hibs but I would never play for Sevco, Celtic or Hearts.

I would rather retire than ever sign for any of those three clubs.

Again, that's because your thinking like a fan....footballers don't feel the same way about clubs as we do....they have friends there, know people who work there...it isn't tribal when it's your profession...


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bigwheel
03-04-2017, 11:08 PM
It might be a job but there are companies I wouldn't work for in any circumstances. Football is the same.

Rangers is the obvious one. As an institution it goes against everything I believe in and no cash would allow we to work for them or play for those supporters.

Players don't view clubs that way...ask Maurice Johnston


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ekhibee
03-04-2017, 11:20 PM
He's a Septic fan.

Fyvie and Boyle both grew up as Aberdeen supporters.
Boyle was born in Edinburgh and don't think he's an aberdeen fan. Maybe you're thinking he was cos he played for Montrose?

VivaPalmeiras
04-04-2017, 12:54 AM
Easy for people to hypothetically say who they wouldn't sign for but the fact our current Mr Hibs played for Rangers and was happy to do so really says it all. There's not one of player who'd turn down the chance if presented- so why would any of us be different if we were players?

Didn't realise Lewis played for The Rangers - I mean who can top him for title of Mr Hibs? And which medals won with Hibs can trump Lewis's

VivaPalmeiras
04-04-2017, 01:01 AM
I was almost put in a dilemma as a mate worked for a cigarette company luckily I got another job.
Also applied to work with a certain Broadcaster but glad I didn't progress with it as I'm not so sure about its approaches to Retain things. But if you have a young family and mortgage to pay I can see how you need to place them above all else.

Up The Bracket
04-04-2017, 07:49 AM
How many players in our current team (British/Irish) based have known "boyhood" teams? This is who I'm aware of:

Gray: Hearts
Hanlon: Hibs
Fontaine: ?
Bartley: Reading?
McGinn: Celtic
Fyvie: Aberdeen?
Holt: ?
McGeouch: Celtic
Stanton: Hibs?
Handling: Hibs?
McLean: Rangers? (his brother is rumoured to be a former ST holder)
Stevenson: Raith
Boyle: ?
Keatings: Celtic?
Shinnie: Rangers
Forster: ? (born in Gorgie but doesn't support Hearts)
McGregor: Hibs
Humphrey: ?
Graham: ?
Laidlaw: ?
Gallacher: ?
Harris: Hibs?
Cummings: Hearts
Crane: ?
Martin: Hibs?
Allan: ?
Shaw: ?
Insall: ?

Alex Harris originally supported Celtic

JDHibs
04-04-2017, 08:00 AM
Football players have a short career, most can make 15years out of it at a decent level.

I would 100% leave the club i love for more money, maybe not to a main rival, but it could be the difference between struggling to make ends meet when you retire from the game, to living a comfortable life...

I know alot of players who arent at great paying clubs like Hamilton/R County etc offer to put players on trade courses, sure Brian Graham has done tiling or something like that, so they have something to fall back on.

These teams are only paying an average of 40-45k a year, which nowadays, isnt alot of money.

Mainstandman
04-04-2017, 10:13 AM
Quite a sad story if I'm being honest. Plenty of Hibs players have started there. Me and and boy are Hibs daft but I'd never put prejudice before my boys future.

Well said. My son is moving to a new 11 a side team this summer and I'm leaving it to him to pick the one he likes best.

Fuzzywuzzy
04-04-2017, 11:23 AM
I was almost put in a dilemma as a mate worked for a cigarette company luckily I got another job.
Also applied to work with a certain Broadcaster but glad I didn't progress with it as I'm not so sure about its approaches to Retain things. But if you have a young family and mortgage to pay I can see how you need to place them above all else.

Or nandos to eat, tattoos to get, hair to style and beards to oil😂

patlowe
04-04-2017, 11:29 AM
Surely that must be a wind up following the final. Would have thought more chance of the McLean Brothers being Killie fans given their old man played over 500 times for Kilmarnock. Seem to recall Steven McLean officiating a Cup game a few years ago v Ayr Utd and the Somerset fans giving him pelters.

Steven McLean is definitely a Kilmarnock fan, or at least he was before becoming a top level ref.

TelaStella
04-04-2017, 11:05 PM
Seeing a few saying Oli Shaw is a Hibee, this is furthest from the truth as I knew a few folk from his school. Shaw grew up and I imagine he still is, a strong Jambo. He even had 51 for his club shirt number last season before being punted out on loan somewhere, something I wasn't too happy about. No issue with having a few Jambos in the team, got to be expected being Edinburgh lads, but I felt that was just taking the p*** out of the badge on his shirt. Hope to see him pick a new number next season and bang in 20+ up tops with Jason :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
05-04-2017, 10:32 AM
My mate knows Lewis Allan's dad and tells me he is a big Sevco fan ... chances are Lewis will be as well I suppose.

What clubs players support doesn't matter a toss, so long as they give 100% for the club that employs them, that's all that matters and there's little doubt that 100% of professional players at least attempt to do just that no matter what club they play for.

Any person making a living from the game cant have who they support at the forefront of their career choices ..... you might pick a club because it gives you more chances to win stuff, but the overriding concern has to be to make as much money as possible from a career that will last 10 - 15 years if you are lucky.