Pat Fenlon to Celtc

[ALF TUPPER]

Newspapers reporting wee Pat linked with Youth Coach job with the Smellies.

If true, good luck Pat. Remember and bring some soap 👍

[Golden Bear]

I really hope this is true.

[blackpoolhibs]

I guarantee if Pat does go to the smellies, they will not be relegated.

[ALF TUPPER]

😄 was my thoughts too Blackpool 😂

[woodythehibee]

Would be surprised at this. Although I have a lot of respect for Pat, the coaching at Hibs under his spell was very basic and schoolboy-ish according to many players. This suggests that his coaching ability is not a strong point.

He is a Celtic man at heart though so I am sure he would jump at the chance.

[Greencore]

Although I have a lot of respect for Pat.

What game do you respect him more for? The 7-0 game from Malmö, the 5-1 cup final or the 3-0 cup final.

When it comes to Hibernian and Pat Fenlon nothing to respect.

[woodythehibee]

What game do you respect him more for? The 7-0 game from Malmö, the 5-1 cup final or the 3-0 cup final.

When it comes to Hibernian and Pat Fenlon nothing to respect.

I've shared several pints with Pat during his time in Edinburgh. He's a good guy. I have a lot of respect for him as a person.

[HappyHanlon]

What game do you respect him more for? The 7-0 game from Malmö, the 5-1 cup final or the 3-0 cup final.

When it comes to Hibernian and Pat Fenlon nothing to respect.

:aok:

Thanks for your input :rolleyes:

[Mcpakeisgod]

I suppose it's selective memory, terrible big game losses, overshadowing getting a mediocre squad to two Scottish cup finals in two years, considering we had been in one in the previous 15 years

[TheFamous1875]

Pat Fenlon's biggest success at Hibs (and, arguably his career) is Leigh Griffiths.

[jacomo]

Pat Fenlon's biggest success at Hibs (and, arguably his career) is Leigh Griffiths.

:agree:

PF helped him understand what was needed to become a successful pro footballer.

[easty]

I suppose it's selective memory, terrible big game losses, overshadowing getting a mediocre squad to two Scottish cup finals in two years, considering we had been in one in the previous 15 years

You only have to win 4 games to get to a Scottish Cup final (cowdenbeath, killie, ayr, aberdeen and then hearts, aberdeen, killie and falkirk). I'm no saying I wasn't happy to get there, but let's not make out like it was some kind of miracle. Peter Houston got Falkirk to a Scottish Cup final with a **** team last season. Didn't finish it off in embarrassing style either.

I don't care how nice a guy Fenlon is to speak to, or go have a drink with, he's a massive failure of a Hibs manger as far as I'm concerned, and responsible for our worst results. I hope he goes to Celtc and ruins them.

[Brightside]

You only have to win 4 games to get to a Scottish Cup final (cowdenbeath, killie, ayr, aberdeen and then hearts, aberdeen, killie and falkirk). I'm no saying I wasn't happy to get there, but let's not make out like it was some kind of miracle. Peter Houston got Falkirk to a Scottish Cup final with a **** team last season. Didn't finish it off in embarrassing style either.

I don't care how nice a guy Fenlon is to speak to, or go have a drink with, he's a massive failure of a Hibs manger as far as I'm concerned, and responsible for our worst results. I hope he goes to Celtc and ruins them.

He was a genius compared to his replacement!

[Kato]

Typo in the title >Fenln<

[Smartie]

He was a genius compared to his replacement!

And also his predecessor.

[easty]

He was a genius compared to his replacement!

He was better than his replacement, but in 50 years, if I'm not dead, I'll have forgotten all about that clown, I'll never forget Fenlon, because of those games.

[easty]

Typo in the title >Fenln<

:aok:

[bigwheel]

You only have to win 4 games to get to a Scottish Cup final (cowdenbeath, killie, ayr, aberdeen and then hearts, aberdeen, killie and falkirk). I'm no saying I wasn't happy to get there, but let's not make out like it was some kind of miracle. Peter Houston got Falkirk to a Scottish Cup final with a **** team last season. Didn't finish it off in embarrassing style either.

I don't care how nice a guy Fenlon is to speak to, or go have a drink with, he's a massive failure of a Hibs manger as far as I'm concerned, and responsible for our worst results. I hope he goes to Celtc and ruins them.


it's stuff like that that tells me you are ranting rather than being accurate. Falkirk were not great, but in no way were they ****. They were a good championship side, and a decent Scottish club side. They still are.

Fenlon kept us up..He then took us into Europe. His reign will always overshadowed by those big game big losses, but overall he left us better off, in my opinion , than when he found us. And I don't care what anyone says, there is no way we would have been relegated had he stayed the whole season. Why? because his average points per game total tells us that.

I wish him luck wherever he goes...even if he "failed' at us...if he did, it wasn't for his lack of trying...

[easty]

it's stuff like that that tells me you are ranting rather than being accurate. Falkirk were not great, but in no way were they ****. They were a good championship side, and a decent Scottish club side. They still are.

Fenlon kept us up..He then took us into Europe. His reign will always overshadowed by those big game big losses, but overall he left us better off, in my opinion , than when he found us. And I don't care what anyone says, there is no way we would have been relegated had he stayed the whole season. Why? because his average points per game total tells us that.

I wish him luck wherever he goes...even if he "failed' at us...if he did, it wasn't for his lack of trying...

Falkirk were ****. They finished as the 5th best side in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. That's not *****?

His reign will, rightly, be defined by those games. I dunno if we'd have gone down or not, but you can't say for a fact either way.

Fenlon tried hard, good for him. Shame that effort only gets you so far.

[MWHIBBIES]

What game do you respect him more for? The 7-0 game from Malmö, the 5-1 cup final or the 3-0 cup final.

When it comes to Hibernian and Pat Fenlon nothing to respect.I respect him for taking over at a horrible time, getting us safe and to a cup final. I also respect him for getting us comfortably mid table the next year ( would have been top 6 if not for 2 awful refereeing decisions), to another cup final and into Europe. Pathetic to focus on 3 results over 2 years, especially when one of them you mentioned was against a team with 10 times the budget and another vs a team who are now in the champions league group stages. Mcleish got pumped in a cup final and lost in Europe, Mowbray got pumped in 2 different Scottish cup semis and pumped out of Europe, no respect for them either? Your really solid logic means you wouldn't have. We didn't have a great squad when he was hounded out but he got a lot ****ing more out of them than Butcher and we wouldn't have been close to relegation if he had been able to finish his contract.

Bet you were one of the ones who was delighted when he went and was replaced by Butcher.

[MWHIBBIES]

Falkirk were ****. They finished as the 5th best side in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. That's not *****?

His reign will, rightly, be defined by those games. I dunno if we'd have gone down or not, but you can't say for a fact either way.

Fenlon tried hard, good for him. Shame that effort only gets you so far.There is literally nothing to suggest we'd have been even close.

[easty]

There is literally nothing to suggest we'd have been even close.

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm saying you can't know for a fact what would have happened. There was nowt to suggest that Nigel Pearson would keep Leicester up, but it happened.

[Andy74]

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm saying you can't know for a fact what would have happened. There was nowt to suggest that Nigel Pearson would keep Leicester up, but it happened.

Other than the year he took over we were nowhere near to being a team in relegation trouble. Our average position over that year and a bit was 5th.

We were in 12th place for two weeks, 11th for no weeks, tenth for one week.

Compare that to 3 weeks in 1st and 8 weeks in second.

Overall we were 35 weeks in top six and 14 in bottom. We timed the slip into bottom badly mind you, fifishing 7th when we were cheated out of those two games before the split. We didn't lose after the split though.

Add in two cup finals - it's not failure from taking over a team that had just lost at home to the team that went on to get relegated.

We've had worse results than the ones that keep getting mentioned - losing 6-2 to this current Rangers side I'd argue is a worse result than 7-0 with the team we could put out against Malmo at the time.

Focusing on a couple of results without any of the context around those games is not right.

[Northernhibee]

We would easily, easily been mid table under Par. Accepting his resignation when he was out of contract in the summer cost the club huge money via relegation and is up there with some of our biggest blunders in recent times.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't get the Fenlon kept us up narrative. We were in 9th place when he took over and ended up 11th.
His points per game ratio was the same as Calderwoods even though he brought in a load of his own players in January we never improved at all.
The only people who kept us up were Dunfermline.


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[easty]

Other than the year he took over we were nowhere near to being a team in relegation trouble. Our average position over that year and a bit was 5th.

We were in 12th place for two weeks, 11th for no weeks, tenth for one week.

Compare that to 3 weeks in 1st and 8 weeks in second.

Overall we were 35 weeks in top six and 14 in bottom. We timed the slip into bottom badly mind you, fifishing 7th when we were cheated out of those two games before the split. We didn't lose after the split though.

Add in two cup finals - it's not failure from taking over a team that had just lost at home to the team that went on to get relegated.

We've had worse results than the ones that keep getting mentioned - losing 6-2 to this current Rangers side I'd argue is a worse result than 7-0 with the team we could put out against Malmo at the time.

Focusing on a couple of results without any of the context around those games is not right.

The bit in bold is nonsense. It was nowhere near as bad.

You can dress it up however you want, there are those who thought he was a good manager, and was hard done by, then there are those (like me) who think he was *****.

He does have a worse record as Hibs manager than Bobby Williamson though. That's got to count as some kind of benchmark.

[Mcpakeisgod]

You only have to win 4 games to get to a Scottish Cup final (cowdenbeath, killie, ayr, aberdeen and then hearts, aberdeen, killie and falkirk). I'm no saying I wasn't happy to get there, but let's not make out like it was some kind of miracle. Peter Houston got Falkirk to a Scottish Cup final with a **** team last season. Didn't finish it off in embarrassing style either.

I don't care how nice a guy Fenlon is to speak to, or go have a drink with, he's a massive failure of a Hibs manger as far as I'm concerned, and responsible for our worst results. I hope he goes to Celtc and ruins them.

I didn't make it out as if it was a miracle, it was extremely hard for anyone though, never mind us. But if you want a wee vent on this then by all means, crack on

[Golden Bear]

He was better than his replacement, but in 50 years, if I'm not dead, I'll have forgotten all about that clown, I'll never forget Fenlon, because of those games.

:agree:


All we did was replace one horrendous Manager, with another horrendous Manager ------------- then yet another horrendous Manager.!

And I'll put my hand up and say at the time of their respective appointments, I really thought they would do the business.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree:


All we did was replace one horrendous Manager, with another horrendous Manager ------------- then yet another horrendous Manager.!

And I'll put my hand up and say at the time of their respective appointments, I really thought they would do the business.

Me too. I'll never make that mistake again. Only results on the park will convince me in future.


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[Smartie]

The bit in bold is nonsense. It was nowhere near as bad.

You can dress it up however you want, there are those who thought he was a good manager, and was hard done by, then there are those (like me) who think he was *****.

He does have a worse record as Hibs manager than Bobby Williamson though. That's got to count as some kind of benchmark.

Things got so bad with managers for us that I now have a bit more respect for Bobby and what he achieved.

Let's just say that McLeish got out at the right time (for him, as he has a habit of doing). Sauzee never stood a chance but it wasn't a great situation that Williamson inherited.

He then had to get rid of all our high earners and play the youngsters, blooding some of the best payers we've had in recent years.

Whilst he generally finished bottom six, there were a lot of clubs still spending a lot of money at that time (whether they had it or not) and he didn't ever get close to getting us relegated.

The biggest sticks used to beat Williamson are the "cinema" comment (which I'm sure he actually made whilst at Killie) and the "Bobby Mann" urban myth - whether or not he attempted to make this transfer happen, the bottom line is that it didn't.

We can argue all day about who was most culpable out of Calderwood, Fenlon and Butcher, the fact is that they all shoulder some of the blame but Petrie presided over the whole sorry mess of recent recent years and should carry the can more than any individual manager.

[blackpoolhibs]

Things got so bad with managers for us that I now have a bit more respect for Bobby and what he achieved.

Let's just say that McLeish got out at the right time (for him, as he has a habit of doing). Sauzee never stood a chance but it wasn't a great situation that Williamson inherited.

He then had to get rid of all our high earners and play the youngsters, blooding some of the best payers we've had in recent years.

Whilst he generally finished bottom six, there were a lot of clubs still spending a lot of money at that time (whether they had it or not) and he didn't ever get close to getting us relegated.

The biggest sticks used to beat Williamson are the "cinema" comment (which I'm sure he actually made whilst at Killie) and the "Bobby Mann" urban myth - whether or not he attempted to make this transfer happen, the bottom line is that it didn't.

We can argue all day about who was most culpable out of Calderwood, Fenlon and Butcher, the fact is that they all shoulder some of the blame but Petrie presided over the whole sorry mess of recent recent years and should carry the can more than any individual manager.

100% spot on, after getting lucky with Mowbray, and i say lucky because of his record in appointing managers. He then preceded to inflict us with managers who were hell bent in playing the stuffiest style we've seen at the club since Bertie Auld.

Yet we will hear how we have a style, a Hibs style of play that is supposed to be entertaining. How anyone who's in charge of the club and in charge of the manager's appointments would appoint these types of managers who are the opposite of what we as a support want, just shows me how out of touch that man really was/is.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't get the Fenlon kept us up narrative. We were in 9th place when he took over and ended up 11th.
His points per game ratio was the same as Calderwoods even though he brought in a load of his own players in January we never improved at all.
The only people who kept us up were Dunfermline.


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:agree: All PF managed to do was slow up the downward spiral for a bit, he got a break by getting Griffiths to perform as he did as the guy was winning games for us on his own for a bit. He'd have taken us down the following season unless there was a fundamental change from the top down, that wasn't going to happen, it took the butcher car crash and the threat of organised action by fans to finally bring about the change we have, and for many that's just beginning to show signs of progress but is a measure of how far we had actually fallen.

Fenlon was a decent guy, out of his depth.

[Baldy Foghorn]

:agree: All PF managed to do was slow up the downward spiral for a bit, he got a break by getting Griffiths to perform as he did as the guy was winning games for us on his own for a bit. He'd have taken us down the following season unless there was a fundamental change from the top down, that wasn't going to happen, it took the butcher car crash and the threat of organised action by fans to finally bring about the change we have, and for many that's just beginning to show signs of progress but is a measure of how far we had actually fallen.

Fenlon was a decent guy, out of his depth.

Yet our leaders allowed him to bumble along. Some fans had a meeting with RP regarding concerns at PF's "failings", but they did/would not listen until it was too late.....The 0-7 should have been the end of PF no questions asked.....

[Bostonhibby]

Yet our leaders allowed him to bumble along. Some fans had a meeting with RP regarding concerns at PF's "failings", but they did/would not listen until it was too late.....The 0-7 should have been the end of PF no questions asked.....

Yep, you will get no arguments from me there. Heard he actually offered to go around this time but we declined.

[Andy74]

Yet our leaders allowed him to bumble along. Some fans had a meeting with RP regarding concerns at PF's "failings", but they did/would not listen until it was too late.....The 0-7 should have been the end of PF no questions asked.....

What do you mean by too late? He left in the top six.

You can't sack managers over single results.

We'd just come off a season where after nearly going down the year before we were largely top six until we dipped (were cheated) into the bottom six.

We then went unbeaten in the bottom six. I think we won 4 of the games.

We got to another Scottish cup final and went the season unbeaten against Hearts.

Sacking a manager after that is daft. Arguing that sort of record is failure has got us where we are now.

[Baldy Foghorn]

What do you mean by too late? He left in the top six.

You can't sack managers over single results.

We'd just come off a season where after nearly going down the year before we were largely top six until we dipped (were cheated) into the bottom six.

We then went unbeaten in the bottom six. I think we won 4 of the games.

We got to another Scottish cup final and went the season unbeaten against Hearts.

Sacking a manager after that is daft. Arguing that sort of record is failure has got us where we are now.


He was completely out of his depth Andy, are we using the unbeaten in derbies as a benchmark? The Celtic Final was damage limitation......

[Ozyhibby]

What do you mean by too late? He left in the top six.

You can't sack managers over single results.

We'd just come off a season where after nearly going down the year before we were largely top six until we dipped (were cheated) into the bottom six.

We then went unbeaten in the bottom six. I think we won 4 of the games.

We got to another Scottish cup final and went the season unbeaten against Hearts.

Sacking a manager after that is daft. Arguing that sort of record is failure has got us where we are now.

We finished below Ross county that season and have been below them since. Ross ........... County.


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[Thecat23]

Fenlon was a poor manager, the 1-5 and 0-7 weren't flukes. The football he played was awful and some of the worst I'd seen (until Butcher) you can make stats sound good along with making them sound bad.

Anyone who watched his team could see he was way out his depth and he knew it himself in the end. From part time Irish football to a prem league team was just to much. Seems he was a hard working guy with the best intentions but I never want to see a manager with that style of play at ER again along with Calderwood and Butcher.

Time to move on and appreciate what Stubbs and his coaching team are doing.

[MWHIBBIES]

We finished below Ross county that season and have been below them since. Ross ........... County.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAberdeen and Hearts were belowthem (and us) as well, Ross County were good that season.

[Ozyhibby]

Aberdeen and Hearts were belowthem (and us) as well, Ross County were good that season.

Just because others were failing does not make Fenlon a success. Hearts were hurtling towards admin and Aberdeen were managed by Mark McGhee.
Ross Counties player budget is about £400k, ours was about £3.5m. It was a failure.


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[bigwheel]

Just because others were failing does not make Fenlon a success. Hearts were hurtling towards admin and Aberdeen were managed by Mark McGhee.
Ross Counties player budget is about £400k, ours was about £3.5m. It was a failure.


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Hearts only felt the affect of Admin in the latter parts of Fenlon's reign, and even then before the season he got sacked they had players on significant deals much more than we could ever afford...Aberdeen's budget was bigger than ours...

[tamig]

You only have to win 4 games to get to a Scottish Cup final (cowdenbeath, killie, ayr, aberdeen and then hearts, aberdeen, killie and falkirk). I'm no saying I wasn't happy to get there, but let's not make out like it was some kind of miracle. Peter Houston got Falkirk to a Scottish Cup final with a **** team last season. Didn't finish it off in embarrassing style either.

I don't care how nice a guy Fenlon is to speak to, or go have a drink with, he's a massive failure of a Hibs manger as far as I'm concerned, and responsible for our worst results. I hope he goes to Celtc and ruins them.
Aye good one. So how come our final appearances are so few and far between if it's as easy as you make out? What tosh.

[easty]

Aye good one. So how come our final appearances are so few and far between if it's as easy as you make out? What tosh.

Mibbe read what I said, I didn't say it was easy, I just said it wasn't some kind of miracle. Winning 4 individual games over the course of a season can get you into the Scottish Cup final. 4 games. Does doing that mean you've had a good season, just cos we don't do it very often? Naw.

[Mr White]

Mibbe read what I said, I didn't say it was easy, I just said it wasn't some kind of miracle. Winning 4 individual games over the course of a season can get you into the Scottish Cup final. 4 games. Does doing that mean you've had a good season, just cos we don't do it very often? Naw.

Doing it 2 years on the trot deserves more credit than pat gets imo. 2 poor final performances quite rightly draws criticism of course too.

[lord bunberry]

Yet our leaders allowed him to bumble along. Some fans had a meeting with RP regarding concerns at PF's "failings", but they did/would not listen until it was too late.....The 0-7 should have been the end of PF no questions asked.....
If he wasn't considered good enough he should've been sacked at the end of the previous season. You can't sack a manager on the basis of one bad result, especially considering that it was still during our normal pre season against a decent European side half way through their season.

[Baldy Foghorn]

If he wasn't considered good enough he should've been sacked at the end of the previous season. You can't sack a manager on the basis of one bad result, especially considering that it was still during our normal pre season against a decent European side half way through their season.

It wasn't just one bad result though..............

[Northernhibee]

I'll tell you something, I'd give my eye teeth to be a bit boring but comfortably mid table in the SPL with a guaranteed good cup run at this moment in time.

[Andy74]

It wasn't just one bad result though..............

The previous season was good though from where we were. Why would he have been sacked?

[cleanyman]

Fenlon was hounded out by the fans, we got Butcher as a replacement... The rest is history.

[#FromTheCapital]

All the best to Pat. Always tried his best, just didn't work out for him in the end.

[Baldy Foghorn]

The previous season was good though from where we were. Why would he have been sacked?

We were in a relegation dogfight, we beat Dunfermline to guarantee safety, cup final disaster, next season finished 7th, Cup final damage limitation, then the horrendous European result.....Let's not pretend he was a success, he was out of his depth.....

[Ozyhibby]

The previous season was good though from where we were. Why would he have been sacked?

It really wasn't. We were 7th behind the likes of Ross County, Inverness and St. Johnstone. All their player budgets added together would not match ours.
Goodness knows how bad it would have been without Leigh Griffiths scoring 23 goals for us.


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[Baldy Foghorn]

Fenlon was hounded out by the fans, we got Butcher as a replacement... The rest is history.

Fans fault???

[Billy Whizz]

Fenlon was hounded out by the fans, we got Butcher as a replacement... The rest is history.

The Hearts league cup defeat was the last straw for most.
As an aside I was NEVER a supporter of Butcher getting the job. Can't remember where the momentum can for him getting the job. Who were the other candidates at the time?

[BoomtownHibees]

I would have sacked him after the first final

[bigwheel]

The Hearts league cup defeat was the last straw for most.
As an aside I was NEVER a supporter of Butcher getting the job. Can't remember where the momentum can for him getting the job. Who were the other candidates at the time?


which amazed me in a way, as we absolutely battered them that night..particularly in the first half...they scored a worldy against us...it was a result we did not deserve on the night..I also didn't fancy Butcher at the time. Although fell for his patter for a few months after appointed ...

[Billy Whizz]

which amazed me in a way, as we absolutely battered them that night..particularly in the first half...they scored a worldy against us...it was a result we did not deserve on the night..I also didn't fancy Butcher at the time. Although fell for his patter for a few months after appointed ...

We should have been 2/3 up early doors that night, think we hit them with a hurricane but couldn't score

[Kato]

The Hearts league cup defeat was the last straw for most.
As an aside I was NEVER a supporter of Butcher getting the job. Can't remember where the momentum can for him getting the job. Who were the other candidates at the time?

There was a "Fenlon Out / Butcher In" thread on here weeks before Fenlon left.

We can argue all we want about which manager did what but we were sold down the river by RP's ineptitude.

While he was imposing a "corporate structure" and other such bull dung on the club the core reason for us existing was an afterthought.

When asked what the strategy for the club was we were repeatedly told "to operate at the top end of the SPL", which isn't a strategy at all it's a target.

Mealy mouth crap while we helicoptered downwards season after season. Should have left after the East was finished. Should have been ousted after the crap Calderwood put us through. Still here though.

[#FromTheCapital]

which amazed me in a way, as we absolutely battered them that night..particularly in the first half...they scored a worldy against us...it was a result we did not deserve on the night..I also didn't fancy Butcher at the time. Although fell for his patter for a few months after appointed ...

Yes we battered them that night but only for the first 30 minutes, then they scored. After that we just seemed to accept defeat with an hour left on the clock, to a poor hearts team who were in administration at the time. So we deserved what we got - **** all. This on the back of a mediocre start to the league campaign, albeit sitting 5th, and of course the Malmö game. Easy to see why so many wanted him out.

[Smartie]

I'll tell you something, I'd give my eye teeth to be a bit boring but comfortably mid table in the SPL with a guaranteed good cup run at this moment in time.

I wouldn't.

I don't want football that is boring.

I don't want to ever settle for Hibs only being comfortably mid-table.

I don't want to settle for any cup run that ultimately doesn't lead to us winning it.


We are where we are as a result of all sorts of crap having happened in the past, but we need to leave it there as it is nothing to do with anyone at the club at the moment.

I'm quite enjoying the early stages of watching our club try and rebuild something and I don't want the extent of those ambitions to be what was "achieved" during Fenlon's time at the club.

I think that all of the above can be put forward as mitigating factors when assessing how good (or otherwise) a job we think Fenlon did. And given the situation he had inherited (an utter omnishambles imo) I don't think we should be too harsh on Pat - the above was a reasonable achievement given what he was given to work with.

I am confident that with the Stubbs, Dempster, the background staff and players we have at the moment we could go on to easily get to a better place than we ever got to under Fenlon.

It is a shame for them (and us) that they have found themselves in consecutive Championships at the same time as Hearts and Rangers getting their act together.

But let's be careful what we wish for.

[Northernhibee]

I wouldn't.

I don't want football that is boring.

I don't want to ever settle for Hibs only being comfortably mid-table.

I don't want to settle for any cup run that ultimately doesn't lead to us winning it.


We are where we are as a result of all sorts of crap having happened in the past, but we need to leave it there as it is nothing to do with anyone at the club at the moment.

I'm quite enjoying the early stages of watching our club try and rebuild something and I don't want the extent of those ambitions to be what was "achieved" during Fenlon's time at the club.

I think that all of the above can be put forward as mitigating factors when assessing how good (or otherwise) a job we think Fenlon did. And given the situation he had inherited (an utter omnishambles imo) I don't think we should be too harsh on Pat - the above was a reasonable achievement given what he was given to work with.

I am confident that with the Stubbs, Dempster, the background staff and players we have at the moment we could go on to easily get to a better place than we ever got to under Fenlon.

It is a shame for them (and us) that they have found themselves in consecutive Championships at the same time as Hearts and Rangers getting their act together.

But let's be careful what we wish for.

Pat was out of contract that summer, he would have kept us up, Dempster and Stubbs would not have had such a horrific task ahead of them - make no bones about it, accepting Pat's resignation was Rod Petrie's biggest mistake in hindsight.

[Smartie]

Pat was out of contract that summer, he would have kept us up, Dempster and Stubbs would not have had such a horrific task ahead of them - make no bones about it, accepting Pat's resignation was Rod Petrie's biggest mistake in hindsight.

Did he really have any choice though? If someone wants to walk, they walk. And there were enough of us who were critical of Calderwood's lack of commitment - did that horrendously imbalanced, mentally weak and painfully slow shower of misfits really need a manager who had been talked into staying? Pat himself knew he'd lost the dressing room, he saw the writing on the wall and that's why he went. There were also plenty of rumours going back to very early on in Fenlon's time with us about him walking out on training/ threatening to leave etc.

[marinello59]

Pat was out of contract that summer, he would have kept us up, Dempster and Stubbs would not have had such a horrific task ahead of them - make no bones about it, accepting Pat's resignation was Rod Petrie's biggest mistake in hindsight.

Sacking PF wasn't a mistake, he had to go. Replacing him with Butcher was the mistake. Again, in hindsight.

[Northernhibee]

Sacking PF wasn't a mistake, he had to go. Replacing him with Butcher was the mistake. Again, in hindsight.

I don't know who we would have gotten mid season that was better. If Pat was allowed to see out his contract we'd be a premier league club right now, and if anyone tries to say "You don't know Pat would have kept us up" - he blatantly, obviously would have and to suggest so shows a fair amount of disrespect to a man who showed and still shows a lot of respect to Hibs.

[B.H.F.C]

I don't know who we would have gotten mid season that was better. If Pat was allowed to see out his contract we'd be a premier league club right now, and if anyone tries to say "You don't know Pat would have kept us up" - he blatantly, obviously would have and to suggest so shows a fair amount of disrespect to a man who showed and still shows a lot of respect to Hibs.

Although I think he would have kept us up, of course you don't know for sure that he would have. His teams found most other ways to humiliate us after all.

[Seekyit]

Other than the year he took over we were nowhere near to being a team in relegation trouble. Our average position over that year and a bit was 5th.

We were in 12th place for two weeks, 11th for no weeks, tenth for one week.

Compare that to 3 weeks in 1st and 8 weeks in second.

Overall we were 35 weeks in top six and 14 in bottom. We timed the slip into bottom badly mind you, fifishing 7th when we were cheated out of those two games before the split. We didn't lose after the split though.

Add in two cup finals - it's not failure from taking over a team that had just lost at home to the team that went on to get relegated.

We've had worse results than the ones that keep getting mentioned - losing 6-2 to this current Rangers side I'd argue is a worse result than 7-0 with the team we could put out against Malmo at the time.

Focusing on a couple of results without any of the context around those games is not right.

I'm interested to know - one was the Griffiths free kick and the other?


About Fenlon, he really didn't need to get us to THAT Cup Final. It would have seemed a bit shoddy, but no one would have cared that much if we'd lost to Cowdenbeath in the 4th round. Fenlon's job (as I see it) was to steady the ship after the uncertainty of Calderwood. Finishing 11th would still have been disappointing but we'd have drawn a line under it and moved on.


To where though is anybody's guess. I just don't think it would have turned out as bad as it did.

[Andy74]

I'm interested to know - one was the Griffiths free kick and the other?


About Fenlon, he really didn't need to get us to THAT Cup Final. It would have seemed a bit shoddy, but no one would have cared that much if we'd lost to Cowdenbeath in the 4th round. Fenlon's job (as I see it) was to steady the ship after the uncertainty of Calderwood. Finishing 11th would still have been disappointing but we'd have drawn a line under it and moved on.


To where though is anybody's guess. I just don't think it would have turned out as bad as it did.

Dundee Utd. Penalty given for a foul well outside the box.

[Seekyit]

Dundee Utd. Penalty given for a foul well outside the box.

Found it on youtube, cheers.

Wisnae a penalty..

[tamig]

Mibbe read what I said, I didn't say it was easy, I just said it wasn't some kind of miracle. Winning 4 individual games over the course of a season can get you into the Scottish Cup final. 4 games. Does doing that mean you've had a good season, just cos we don't do it very often? Naw.
I'm pretty sure a lot of folk would be quite happy to see us getting to a final every couple of seasons and would probably see it as a decent season if we did make the final. You seem to be saying you wouldn't class it as a good season even if we made the cup final. What would make it a good season in your book?

[givescotlandfreedom]

Pat was a good and very dingified member of the club and a far better man than Celtc can do justice for. All the best Pat, a decent Hins man better than than that club.

[Beefster]

Fenlon was a disaster for Hibs. Folk put the blame for relegation fully at Butcher's door but Fenlon is responsible too.

The same folk who defend Fenlon with 'we were in position x when he resigned' are the same ones who try to justify away the fact that we were 9th when Fenlon took over and 11th at the end of that season. He may well have been a nice guy to speak to or have a pint with but last time I looked that wasn't a key qualification to be a Hibs manager (or we'd all be able to do it).

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Some folk are not cut out to be managers though. Like Jimmy Nichol or even Colin Calderwood. Decent enough as assistants.

[blackpoolhibs]

Fenlon was a disaster for Hibs. Folk put the blame for relegation fully at Butcher's door but Fenlon is responsible too.

The same folk who defend Fenlon with 'we were in position x when he resigned' are the same ones who try to justify away the fact that we were 9th when Fenlon took over and 11th at the end of that season. He may well have been a nice guy to speak to or have a pint with but last time I looked that wasn't a key qualification to be a Hibs manager (or we'd all be able to do it).

The Malmo fiasco was the turning point for me, he should have went then. I'd have prefered it if he'd stayed though, when we see what replaced him and what resulted in that replacement.

I dont believe for one minute we'd have been relegated under Fenlon, we'd have been bored rigid for the rest of that season but we'd have still been a top flight club.

Butcher and more importantly Petrie sucked the life out the club, something we are still struggling to recover from.

West Ham have recently replaced Sam Allardyce, a similar type of manager, one who was boring the support but was keeping them safe just before their big move to their new ground.

The owners may have made their money in soft porn, but they do know their West Ham history and what their support demand, Petrie with his appointments. Williamson, Fenlon, Butcher, Calderwood clearly has no idea what our support demand.

[flash]

He should have been sacked after the Cup final against Hertz. In my opinion the worst result in the history of the club.

[Northernhibee]

It's not fair to mention the bad results without the good he did as well - in his first few seasons after the first round of games he had us top of the league with a 1-0 victory against Celtic at Easter Road (I remember Eoin Doyle being magnificent in that game), going that season undefeated against them including a memorable victory at Tynie and what should have been another win with one of the great derby goals from Sparky.

In his second season his start mirrored Aberdeen's in many ways but two or three bad results on the trot saw ridiculous protests from about ten people which Rod Petrie should never have acknowledged. Sadly too many people decided to look at the media slagging him off (let's not forget he wasn't a media friendly kind of guy and a bit more private) and turned against him.

If you think it was all bad under Pat or a disaster then you're not taking everything into consideration. If he'd left in the summer when his contract ran out we'd have had a decent foundation to build a successful team from.

[easty]

I'm pretty sure a lot of folk would be quite happy to see us getting to a final every couple of seasons and would probably see it as a decent season if we did make the final. You seem to be saying you wouldn't class it as a good season even if we made the cup final. What would make it a good season in your book?

Winning the cup would make it a good season. If we got to the final every year for the next 5 seasons, but lost them all, that would be no achievement in my opinion. I bet the players would say the same.

[easty]

It's not fair to mention the bad results without the good he did as well - in his first few seasons after the first round of games he had us top of the league with a 1-0 victory against Celtic at Easter Road (I remember Eoin Doyle being magnificent in that game), going that season undefeated against them including a memorable victory at Tynie and what should have been another win with one of the great derby goals from Sparky.

In his second season his start mirrored Aberdeen's in many ways but two or three bad results on the trot saw ridiculous protests from about ten people which Rod Petrie should never have acknowledged. Sadly too many people decided to look at the media slagging him off (let's not forget he wasn't a media friendly kind of guy and a bit more private) and turned against him.

If you think it was all bad under Pat or a disaster then you're not taking everything into consideration. If he'd left in the summer when his contract ran out we'd have had a decent foundation to build a successful team from.

Ok, so it wasn't "all bad", but if you're just looking for the good you'll find it.

Look at Butchers record then. He was here for 27 games. In the first 8 he won 4, including against Hearts, and only lost 1, and that was 1-0 to Celtc. That's pretty good, no? But ultimately he, like Fenlon, was a diddy.

[eastmainsmsh]

Always liked Pat if he had delivered a Scottish cup he would've been a legend never felt he was out his depth just the pressure and expectation got to him in end

[marinello59]

He may well have been a nice guy to speak to or have a pint with but last time I looked that wasn't a key qualification to be a Hibs manager (or we'd all be able to do it).

Not me. I'm just as horrible in real life as I am on here.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Not me. I'm just as horrible in real life as I am on here.

:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Winning the cup would make it a good season. If we got to the final every year for the next 5 seasons, but lost them all, that would be no achievement in my opinion. I bet the players would say the same.

While losing finals is disappointing it IMO is an achievement to get to the final both in footballing terms and also commercial terms. Prior to 2012 we had only been in the final in 2001 and then over 20 years before that in 1979. To say it isnt an achievement even taking into account how gutting losing particularly the 2012 one is wrong IMO.

[flash]

It's like bald men fighting over a comb. We are basically arguing over who was the least useless.

[bigwheel]

It's like bald men fighting over a comb. We are basically arguing over who was the least useless.


ha! it's hard to argue with that point :-)

[MWHIBBIES]

He should have been sacked after the Cup final against Hertz. In my opinion the worst result in the history of the club.90% of the forum backed him that night, it was the club and players who let us down, not him.

[flash]

90% of the forum backed him that night, it was the club and players who let us down, not him.

Right you are then.

[Ozyhibby]

Sacking Fenlon was the correct thing to do. Appointing Butcher was not even Petrie's biggest mistake that season. His biggest mistake was in not removing him from post when it became clear the club was tearing itself apart down at East mains. He could have been sacked at the split, or after the Killie game. In either case we could have saved ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RIP Bestie]

I believe that what has happened to us had to happen for us to see the changes that are now in place at the club.
if Fenlon had stayed until the end of the season, I believe he would have kept us up. He would then have walked and no one would have put any blame on the resulting fiasco down to him.
He would have then been replaced by Butcher, as I see no reason why the club would have had any reason not to want him given that he was obviously the one they had identified as the next Hibs Manager.
it could have been the case that Butcher was found out before the real damage was done and we brought in someone else who steadied the ship and saved us from relegation or the play offs.
We would have still been trudging down the same road we have been for far too long.
There is an obvious wind of change at Easter Road, whether it proves successful or not only time will tell, but I firmly believe that the clubs hand had been forced because of the dire situation we were in and we may not have seen it otherwise.
I would obviously rather we had made the changes without having to get into the mess we were in but I don't think that was ever going to happen.

[Eyrie]

I believe that what has happened to us had to happen for us to see the changes that are now in place at the club.
if Fenlon had stayed until the end of the season, I believe he would have kept us up. He would then have walked and no one would have put any blame on the resulting fiasco down to him.
He would have then been replaced by Butcher, as I see no reason why the club would have had any reason not to want him given that he was obviously the one they had identified as the next Hibs Manager.
it could have been the case that Butcher was found out before the real damage was done and we brought in someone else who steadied the ship and saved us from relegation or the play offs.
We would have still been trudging down the same road we have been for far too long.
There is an obvious wind of change at Easter Road, whether it proves successful or not only time will tell, but I firmly believe that the clubs hand had been forced because of the dire situation we were in and we may not have seen it otherwise.
I would obviously rather we had made the changes without having to get into the mess we were in but I don't think that was ever going to happen.

The structural changes were already being considered and weren't a knee jerk reaction to the Butchered months.

[RIP Bestie]

The structural changes were already being considered and weren't a knee jerk reaction to the Butchered months.
Agreed Eyrie, as Dempster had already been headhunted, but I'm not so sure the changes would have been as radical as they have been. Just an opinion.

[tamig]

Winning the cup would make it a good season. If we got to the final every year for the next 5 seasons, but lost them all, that would be no achievement in my opinion. I bet the players would say the same.

Just think you've played down the significance of getting to consecutive finals. It is an achievement imo. And - of course - by the law of averages, the more finals we play in, surely it has to come good one day ☺

[tamig]

Sacking Fenlon was the correct thing to do. Appointing Butcher was not even Petrie's biggest mistake that season. His biggest mistake was in not removing him from post when it became clear the club was tearing itself apart down at East mains. He could have been sacked at the split, or after the Killie game. In either case we could have saved ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After shelling out the compo to get Butcher in the first place, I doubt if too many people would have expected him to be emptied before the end of the season - no matter how things were going on the pitch. I wouldn't blame RP for that. Hindsight's a wonderful thing and all that.

[Pretty Boy]

My abiding memory of PFs time is utter boredom. It's the only time since I've had a choice I wilfully chose not to attend a number of Hibs games and often left those I did attend early.

It's easy with 20/20 hindsight to say sacking him was a mistake but at the time it wasn't. After that disastrous final we had a decent if unspectacular year btut the next season started in shocking fashion and without Leigh Grifiths we were woeful to watch.

[Bad Martini]

As someone pointed out two pages ago...

...a jobbie is a jobbie.

They come in all shapes and sizes, smell differently and have different substance.

But they are ALL, at the end of the day, stinking, rancid horrible things you dont want to hang around your lavvy any longer than is necessary.

I'll let you work out the analagy.

(though if you need help, I'd suggest two (or more) ***** managers are still, without doubt, ***** managers)...we dont want or need any of them. Getting rid of both was a good move. Keeping them both for as long as we did was bad. I blame the man in charge of hiring and firing for that.

As for Fenlon going to celtic...canny think of anything I really care less about right now....:aok:

[Flower Jew]

My abiding memory of PFs time is utter boredom. It's the only time since I've had a choice I wilfully chose not to attend a number of Hibs games and often left those I did attend early.

It's easy with 20/20 hindsight to say sacking him was a mistake but at the time it wasn't. After that disastrous final we had a decent if unspectacular year btut the next season started in shocking fashion and without Leigh Grifiths we were woeful to watch.

Me too. I took to watching Bonnyrigg Rose, my local junior team. Still gravely unsatisfying but you left their games thinking you could do with a drink, whereas with Fenlons Hibs you needed one.

[hibbydog]

Wee pat was a decent bloke who tried his best in difficult circumstances. The football was poor, with some disasterous results. In the end he was wise enough to realise he wasn't up to it.

An honest man who has my respect.

[Forza Fred]

Wee pat was a decent bloke who tried his best in difficult circumstances. The football was poor, with some disasterous results. In the end he was wise enough to realise he wasn't up to it.

An honest man who has my respect.

Pretty much sums it up.

He was chosen...not his fault if perhaps he shouldn't have been the one picked.

However when here he tried his best for the club, and that is all that can be expected.

Few of us have not had experiences where every venture we sailed into did not result in the outcome we would have hoped for, and left a bit disappointed with what we had achieved, or failed to achieve.

It is called life!

As I say Pat tried his best and to his credit, has never tried to lay any blame on anyone else for his lack of achievement here, and always speaks highly of the club.

I wish him well, and would shake his hand if I bumped into him.

[fulshie]

I agree he wasn't up to scratch for taking us forward but, I do believe we would still be in the SPFL if he remained manager for the full 2013 / 14 season. After his release its the board that took us down after the poor signing of Butcher. Fenlon was a decent man who was a wee bit out his depth.

[Eyrie]

Wee pat was a decent bloke who tried his best in difficult circumstances. The football was poor, with some disasterous results. In the end he was wise enough to realise he wasn't up to it.

An honest man who has my respect.

Far too sensible a post when there is an opportunity for blinkered cheap shots.

I don't dispute that the football under Fenlon was generally dull, but his detractors should remember that you have to be careful what you wish for. Once he'd gone, we had the Butchered months.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Far too sensible a post when there is an opportunity for blinkered cheap shots.

I don't dispute that the football under Fenlon was generally dull, but his detractors should remember that you have to be careful what you wish for. Once he'd gone, we had the Butchered months.

Hindsight is wonderful isn't it.......No-one would have imagined how badly we were going to do under Butcher.....

[Thecat23]

Far too sensible a post when there is an opportunity for blinkered cheap shots.

I don't dispute that the football under Fenlon was generally dull, but his detractors should remember that you have to be careful what you wish for. Once he'd gone, we had the Butchered months.

Pat had to go, it's just a shame we brought in a lunatic!! Either way Pats days were numbered and he knew it hense why he left.

[jacomo]

I wish him well, and would shake his hand if I bumped into him.

:agree:

Would any genuine fan really use a chance encounter to berate him?

[Ronster117]

Wee pat was a decent bloke who tried his best in difficult circumstances. The football was poor, with some disasterous results. In the end he was wise enough to realise he wasn't up to it.

An honest man who has my respect.
:top marks:aok:

[Cheshire Hibby]

Wee pat was a decent bloke who tried his best in difficult circumstances. The football was poor, with some disasterous results. In the end he was wise enough to realise he wasn't up to it.

An honest man who has my respect.

A decent bloke yes, however he was in charge for the two worst results in our history, the first against our city rivals in a Cup Final and all that that means to us all. The second, the worst ever performance by a Scottish club in Europe. Both results in front of large numbers of Hibs fans. If I met him, I wouldn't want to berate him. I would happily buy him a drink and shake his hand but I would have two questions.

1. What happened in the lead up to the cup final that led to such a crap team performance. We all know that there were too many loan players in that team but even so, they should have competed a hell of a lot better. Most if not all players who wore our shirt that day should feel eternal shame for that days efforts and the result. I have only ever read one report that said there was some kind of players downing tools over potential bonus payments or contract offers or the lack of both of them!

Pat, tell us the truth.

2. What was the team talk for the Malmo game? We got played off the park.

The players looked stage frightened by the size of our home support that turned out that night for two reasons. Firstly we thought we would be able to overcome the 1st leg score and secondly, arguably the greatest Hibee ever, Lawrie Reilly died earlier in the week and we came to pay our respects at the first opportunity to do so. What we again witnessed was a terrible team performance! A lot of our fellow supporters gave up that night IMO.

I would add that I want Pat to explain what RP's role in the first of these calamatous events was?

He would have more respect if he gave us the truth.

I don't mean to open up old wounds but these results still gripe!

[Kato]

A decent bloke yes, however he was in charge for the two worst results in our history, the first against our city rivals in a Cup Final and all that that means to us all. The second, the worst ever performance by a Scottish club in Europe. Both results in front of large numbers of Hibs fans. If I met him, I wouldn't want to berate him. I would happily buy him a drink and shake his hand but I would have two questions.

1. What happened in the lead up to the cup final that led to such a crap team performance. We all know that there were too many loan players in that team but even so, they should have competed a hell of a lot better. Most if not all players who wore our shirt that day should feel eternal shame for that days efforts and the result. I have only ever read one report that said there was some kind of players downing tools over potential bonus payments or contract offers or the lack of both of them!

Pat, tell us the truth.

2. What was the team talk for the Malmo game? We got played off the park.

The players looked stage frightened by the size of our home support that turned out that night for two reasons. Firstly we thought we would be able to overcome the 1st leg score and secondly, arguably the greatest Hibee ever, Lawrie Reilly died earlier in the week and we came to pay our respects at the first opportunity to do so. What we again witnessed was a terrible team performance! A lot of our fellow supporters gave up that night IMO.

I would add that I want Pat to explain what RP's role in the first of these calamatous events was?

He would have more respect if he gave us the truth.

I don't mean to open up old wounds but these results still gripe!

Would you shine a light in his face and offer him cigarettes while asking him your questions?

[Cheshire Hibby]

Would you shine a light in his face and offer him cigarettes while asking him your questions?

Wouldn't need to. He knows how bad they were. As I said I would just like an honest chat.

[hibeesjoe]

.

[Beefster]

Would you shine a light in his face and offer him cigarettes while asking him your questions?

I don't think he smokes so maybe a Werther's might be better received.