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Peevemor
10-11-2014, 10:39 PM
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hibernian-fans-to-launch-community-ownership-bid-1-3600325



AN umbrella body of Hibernian supporters are to launch a bid on Tuesday to take the club back into community ownership.

The campaign group, which has the backing of the Hibernian Former Players’ Association, the Supporters’ Association and Supporters Direct Scotland (SDS) among other organisations, will invite current owner Sir Tom Farmer to enter negotiations to sell to them as a single package the club itself, Easter Road, and the training centre at East Mains outside Tranent.

Former Hibs captain Pat Stanton will head the campaign and be present at the launch, where organisers will reveal the name of the group.

They plan to fund a takeover in the same way as the Foundation of Hearts did at Tynecastle, with individual fans pledging a monthly amount and one or more business people committing a lump sum.

Farmer and Hibs chairman Rod Petrie have appeared unwilling to negotiate with recent potential buyers, but a spokesperson for the new group said they hoped for constructive talks, with the aim on both sides of securing the long-term future of the club.

“We want to buy all the assets together - the club, ground and training ground,” the spokesperson said. “We will ask Tom Farmer to name his price and tell us what he wants for the three assets.

“We’re offering a positive exit for him, one that allows him to give the club back to the community, and to leave the club on a positive note.

“This is about uniting the Hibs support to get one group driving positive change. We plan to raise the money via a mixture of individual subscriptions, with fans pledging a monthly sum, and funds from Hibs-supporting business people.”

The new group, which has been working on its plans for several months, concluded from a survey conducted with SDS that there was a willingness among the Hibs support to try to take the club back.

More than 4,000 people replied to the survey, with a sizeable majority supporting more talks on community ownership.

The group hopes that they will get backing from Hibs fans on a scale that allows them to say the community is behind them. They will also be keen to remind Farmer that when he took over the club nearly 25 years ago he said he had done so for the community.

“It’s common knowledge that Hibs’ current owners have had discussions with some potential purchasers of the club, and that in every single case they’ve said it’s not about money,” the spokesperson continued.

“Well, if it’s not about money, put the club into community ownership and walk away.

“What we’ll say to Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie is: ‘We’ve got a structure here. We’ve got everything set up. You keep saying to people who have put in bids for the club or been interested in doing so that they’re not the right people. Other than Hibs supporters, who are the right people?’

“We don’t know how much they want for the club. But if it’s not about money ... So we’re saying to them either give us a price and work with us, or come out with plausible, proper, fresh plans for investment.

“We’re going to ask people to pledge now, but we won’t take any money from them until we have a deal. It will be very much like what the Foundation of Hearts did.

“I’d be keen to sit down with [Hearts owner] Ann Budge to discuss our plans. In fact, at the last Edinburgh derby one of my colleagues had a short discussion with her, and she seems quite keen to help. I’m sure there are things we can learn from her.

“I would urge all Hibs fans to work with us and get together. We’re more than happy to work together with anyone for the benefit of the club.

“There have been previous attempts get the club back into community ownership, and in many ways this is the last throw of the dice for us. We either do it this time - or we walk away and leave Hibernian at the mercy of the current owners.

“This will be a positive campaign. The owners have a goal, and it must be to get out. We have a goal to get the club sold to the right people.

“That goal is surely the same. If we work together, we’ll surely achieve it far more quickly and easily.”

My_Wife_Camille
10-11-2014, 10:44 PM
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hibernian-fans-to-launch-community-ownership-bid-1-3600325

Reads a lot better than some of the other 'proposals' that have come out over the last few months. Will be interesting to hear what they have to say.

weonlywon6-2
10-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Interesting it has to be said,Ann Budge helping also,well stranger things i guess

The Green Goblin
10-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Interesting. And this is going to be a long thread :greengrin

grunt
10-11-2014, 10:51 PM
Why would fans pledge when there's no need to? I know that Hearts fans pledged - and they seem to have kept up their direct debits. (At least, we've heard no stories about them falling off). But they absolutely had to - otherwise their club was going to disappear.

But I can't see why Hibs fans would pledge when there's no pressing need. We've already got a perfectly good owner who can afford to own the club.

I do wonder how many Hibs fans would be willing and able to pledge money to help with community ownership. I guess we may now find out.

Reading the quote - it seems they've had no contact with STF so far.

Juice-Terry
10-11-2014, 10:58 PM
But I can't see why Hibs fans would pledge when there's no pressing need. We've already got a perfectly good owner who can afford to own the club.

:confused: Strange thing to say. The whole point of pledging money is to BUY OUT the current owner as the present situation is FAR from ideal.

Pretty Boy
10-11-2014, 10:59 PM
Why would fans pledge when there's no need to? I know that Hearts fans pledged - and they seem to have kept up their direct debits. (At least, we've heard no stories about them falling off). But they absolutely had to - otherwise their club was going to disappear.

But I can't see why Hibs fans would pledge when there's no pressing need. We've already got a perfectly good owner who can afford to own the club.

I do wonder how many Hibs fans would be willing and able to pledge money to help with community ownership. I guess we may now find out.

Reading the quote - it seems they've had no contact with STF so far.

If it was a move towards community ownership with the fans having a sizeable stake in the club then I can see it being successful. If it's a case of asking for fans to put up cash so Mr X can acquire the club but he doesn't have the finances to do so himself then it will be less so.

Hopefully the finer points will be made clear when it's launched tomorrow. It should be interesting to hear what is said and what the plans are.

grunt
10-11-2014, 11:02 PM
:confused: Strange thing to say. The whole point of pledging money is to BUY OUT the current owner as the present situation is FAR from ideal.I don't understand what problem people have with the current owner.

My_Wife_Camille
10-11-2014, 11:02 PM
If it was a move towards community ownership with the fans having a sizeable stake in the club then I can see it being successful. If it's a case of asking for fans to put up cash so Mr X can acquire the club but he doesn't have the finances to do so himself then it will be less so.

Hopefully the finer points will be made clear when it's launched tomorrow. It should be interesting to hear what is said and what the plans are.
It's defo the first one mate!

I'm hoping the Hibs fans take to this news with an open mind and not the usual suspicion and 'better the devil you know' attitude.

Hibby D
10-11-2014, 11:03 PM
Why would fans pledge when there's no need to? I know that Hearts fans pledged - and they seem to have kept up their direct debits. (At least, we've heard no stories about them falling off). But they absolutely had to - otherwise their club was going to disappear.

But I can't see why Hibs fans would pledge when there's no pressing need. We've already got a perfectly good owner who can afford to own the club.

I do wonder how many Hibs fans would be willing and able to pledge money to help with community ownership. I guess we may now find out.

Reading the quote - it seems they've had no contact with STF so far.

:agree:

And who is this mysterious "spokesperson"? And why can't he/she be named?

I'm naturally suspicious of anyone who insists on remaining "anonymous" - it smacks of self importance.

Pretty Boy
10-11-2014, 11:03 PM
It's defo the first one mate!

That's what I was hoping.

Interesting few weeks ahead I think.

SaulGoodman
10-11-2014, 11:06 PM
I don't understand what problem people have with the current owner.

A disinterest in the football side of the club is very damaging. As cN be seen in our recent position.

lucky
10-11-2014, 11:08 PM
Let's see the detail before we make judgement on the merits of this proposals

My_Wife_Camille
10-11-2014, 11:09 PM
I don't understand what problem people have with the current owner.

A lack of passion, drive, motivation and determination when it comes to Hibernian FC. Don't get me wrong, I'm forever grateful to him for saving the club and I think he should be honoured with some form of tribute (stand naming, statue or something) however as long as he owns this club we will continue to go nowhere.

Peevemor
10-11-2014, 11:16 PM
A lack of passion, drive, motivation and determination when it comes to Hibernian FC. Don't get me wrong, I'm forever grateful to him for saving the club and I think he should be honoured with some form of tribute (stand naming, statue or something) however as long as he owns this club we will continue to go nowhere.

Surely the right person running the club (Leeann Dempster?) coupled with the financial clout of STF is the ideal scenario (assuming there's not some oil magnate or suchlike waiting in the wings).

skipster7
10-11-2014, 11:17 PM
Find it a bit disrespectful that he refers to Sir Tom as farmer tbh.

grunt
10-11-2014, 11:18 PM
A disinterest in the football side of the club is very damaging. As cN be seen in our recent position.


A lack of passion, drive, motivation and determination when it comes to Hibernian FC.
I hear what you both say - and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way.

But I don't look for passion from an owner - I require that from the management and the backroom staff and the team. I just want someone with the best interests of the club at heart, and I've seen nothing from STF that says he's not that type of owner. But I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me. I'd far rather have a dispassionate but benevolent owner than one who intervenes at every stage in executive and footballing decisions.

jodjam
10-11-2014, 11:19 PM
I thought we didn't do umbrellas

Geo_1875
10-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Is the intention that the club will be funded by those fans who can afford to contribute but owned by the wider Hibs community? How will these contributions be recognised in terms of shareholding? Is it expected that we meet STF's price in a lump sum or will we want him to accept monthly payments? Lots of answers needed. And I don't agree its anything like the hertz situation which involved bumping creditors left, right and centre

Spike Mandela
10-11-2014, 11:29 PM
One big difference between this attempt at fan ownership and Foundation of Hearts set up.

They had the benefit of writing off the vast majority of their debt ( by shafting all and sundry) before stumping up and buying their club on the cheap.

Hibs debt isn't going to magically disappear is it.

danhibees1875
10-11-2014, 11:32 PM
I thought we didn't do umbrellas

:tee hee:

jacomo
11-11-2014, 12:06 AM
Surely the right person running the club (Leeann Dempster?) coupled with the financial clout of STF is the ideal scenario (assuming there's not some oil magnate or suchlike waiting in the wings).

In theory, yes. But what we have seen over the past seven years has been far from the ideal scenario. LD might be the answer but it seems a little early to tell, although she has made a pretty good start.

Peevemor
11-11-2014, 12:09 AM
In theory, yes. But what we have seen over the past seven years has been far from the ideal scenario. LD might be the answer but it seems a little early to tell, although she has made a pretty good start.

So would you agree that it might be worth seeing how the current set up pans out?

jacomo
11-11-2014, 12:11 AM
One big difference between this attempt at fan ownership and Foundation of Hearts set up.

They had the benefit of writing off the vast majority of their debt ( by shafting all and sundry) before stumping up and buying their club on the cheap.

Hibs debt isn't going to magically disappear is it.

That depends on STF, to be honest.

There is a more obvious difference with the Hearts situation - we're not teetering on the edge of liquidation. Fans will throw money in if they think the gates are about to be locked.

That's not the case here, so it will need to offer a compelling reason to get involved - that means a clear, long term vision for the club that will only happen through community ownership.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 12:23 AM
STF won't write off our debt. I really hope he takes this seriously and considers this bid.

We are playing championship football because our owners penny pinched on players the proof is where we are! How can folk say that Petrie is doing his job when we are where we are?

We have a fairly big debt and the club are skint. What Petrie did do well was set a good foundation for whoever was to take over. Sadly they both didn't want to go and now we are here. I'm still not convinced STF is wanting out. I may be wrong but something tells me he's holding out for something.

In this day and age he won't get anywhere near what he's wanting. He may have to cut his losses and take what he can.

If he really does want to hand the club over to the community then noes the time. I hope the offer is reasonable for both parties to sit and discus it seriously! STF will want as much as possible and rightly so. But also the buyer will want as much money kept aside to aid the debt and funding of the club.

I want Hibs to be in a better place and it's fair to say the current owners haven't delivered for a long time! No shame admitting they have it wrong and finally move on.

Football is changing at a rapid pace and football models all over the world are changing, we have been stuck in the same place for too long now so new owners will be welcomed by me. The biggest thing people fear is change, yet without change we wouldn't have the world we have now!!

I say good luck, and let's see how this pans out.


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grunt
11-11-2014, 12:40 AM
We are playing championship football because our owners penny pinched on players the proof is where we are! How can folk say that Petrie is doing his job when we are where we are?

We have a fairly big debt and the club are skint. What Petrie did do well was set a good foundation for whoever was to take over. Sadly they both didn't want to go and now we are here. No one on this thread has mentioned Petrie until you did. This is not about the Board its about the ownership. And you say penny pinching yet we had the 3rd biggest budget in the SPL last year.


If he really does want to hand the club over to the community then noes the time. I hope the offer is reasonable for both parties to sit and discus it seriously! STF will want as much as possible and rightly so. But also the buyer will want as much money kept aside to aid the debt and funding of the club.

I want Hibs to be in a better place and it's fair to say the current owners haven't delivered for a long time! No shame admitting they have it wrong and finally move on. Who is this "community" who are going to own the club? You say the owners haven't delivered but I think they've done everything asked of them - STF has provided financial support as and when needed. And you say that STF will want as much as possible - why don't you believe him when he says its not about the money? He wants someone who will safeguard the future of the club. As you say, it will be interesting to see how this pans out, and whether these bidders turn out to have the interests of the club in mind.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 12:47 AM
I'm stating where we are just now under the current owners is there anything wrong with that?

Just because no one else spoke of it doesn't mean I can't. Do I believe STF? Not sure I don't know the guy, I have no idea if he's money orientated or happy to sell Hibs to the right guys for pennies. I suspect he didn't get his millions though if he wasn't a good businessman.

I agree though that it has to be sold to the right person to safeguard the club. I hope these people are and we can then move on. STF done many good things as did Petrie, and I've said that many times! But in nearly a decade the decline has been there to see so in my eyes I pray they are both long gone and they find an owner who cares about football.


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villager
11-11-2014, 02:23 AM
I hope that this group is one the hibs family can unite behind. It's overdue.

Cameron1875
11-11-2014, 03:15 AM
I hope that this group is one the hibs family can unite behind. It's overdue.

Hear Hear :agree::agree:

WellingtonHibby
11-11-2014, 03:32 AM
So would you agree that it might be worth seeing how the current set up pans out?

I think We have to Give Ms Dempster and her new regime a chance to spin things round. Hibs have identified the rot and put in place steps to remedy the club positive change, i think we will see the fruits of that soon.

BroxburnHibee
11-11-2014, 06:17 AM
That SDS survey was heavily weighted to get the answers they wanted.

Using it as a basis to come up with this idea is not a good start IMO.

flash
11-11-2014, 06:57 AM
That SDS survey was heavily weighted to get the answers they wanted.

Using it as a basis to come up with this idea is not a good start IMO.

I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

Hibby D
11-11-2014, 07:25 AM
I think We have to Give Ms Dempster and her new regime a chance to spin things round. Hibs have identified the rot and put in place steps to remedy the club positive change, i think we will see the fruits of that soon.

Agreed

Tyler Durden
11-11-2014, 07:25 AM
One big difference between this attempt at fan ownership and Foundation of Hearts set up.

They had the benefit of writing off the vast majority of their debt ( by shafting all and sundry) before stumping up and buying their club on the cheap.

Hibs debt isn't going to magically disappear is it.

We're probably not a million miles away in terms of numbers. Hearts had to come up with £5m over 3 years IIRC.

Hibs debt is c£7m and there is an appetite from Lloyds for Hibs to make them an offer for it. With a change of ownership that could happen albeit I'd guess the success of this bid is reliant on Farmer getting little or nothing back for his prior investments. There is a lot of emphasis on "if it's not about money"....

hibs0666
11-11-2014, 07:30 AM
I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

Tom Farmer is not getting any younger. Either you hope that he sells the club to someone like him or you try to take the destiny of the club into the hands of the support.

marinello59
11-11-2014, 07:39 AM
I'm looking forward to the detail being provided later. I wonder if it will include 'buy in' figures at all. The amount set could be key and of course it has to be something lead by people who can unite all of the support. Having Pat Stanton fronting things is a decent start.

Steve20
11-11-2014, 07:52 AM
I have no idea how these things work. Would fans put money in on top of season tickets, buying strips etc.? I'm not against it but how many fans could afford to do that on a constant basis?

If that's not what it is, then forget what I just said above.

Matty_Jack04
11-11-2014, 07:57 AM
There definatley needs more detail, I don't think I support the fan ownership idea yeah it's ok as a last resort like hearts but looking at that they actually failed to take control and needed budge to sort it out over a time period before they take control that's when you can make a valid case of it working or not.

I'd be more interested in something working along side what's happening now and making a success of the changes already carried out, maybe even an offer for STF to dilute his ownership with fans interested contributing monthly, or other ways for extra investment

I think completley taking out someone like STF is madness but as I said if more details where to come out Id maybe change my opinion

Seveno
11-11-2014, 08:05 AM
It will be interesting to see the next step. There is not going to be any support for this bid until we know who is behind it and that it is credible. Having one of the greatest ever Hibs players to front it does not in itself give it credibilty.

I really hope that the people behind the plan do have the know how and backing to get our support and to engage with STF. I personally do not believe that he necesarily wants all his money back and that he may well be prepared to write off the debt if he is presented with a sustainable model that has the backing of the support. He can be as tight as a duck's a*** when it comes to his own money but, when it comes to a worthy cause, he can be a man of extraordinary generosity. Let's hope that HFC becomes a beneficiary of one of his many acts of philanthropy.

RyeSloan
11-11-2014, 08:18 AM
I need to understand what community ownership actually means before I can say too much in this.

My gut reaction though is that it sticks in the craw a touch how many times it's suggested we will be copying the Hearts model...they don't have a model...they needed funds to bail out a bankrupt club and a millionaire to make even that stick. Hibs are a million miles from that scenario.

Let's see the detail.

s.a.m
11-11-2014, 08:18 AM
STF won't write off our debt. I really hope he takes this seriously and considers this bid.

We are playing championship football because our owners penny pinched on players the proof is where we are! How can folk say that Petrie is doing his job when we are where we are?

We have a fairly big debt and the club are skint. What Petrie did do well was set a good foundation for whoever was to take over. Sadly they both didn't want to go and now we are here. I'm still not convinced STF is wanting out. I may be wrong but something tells me he's holding out for something.

In this day and age he won't get anywhere near what he's wanting. He may have to cut his losses and take what he can.

If he really does want to hand the club over to the community then noes the time. I hope the offer is reasonable for both parties to sit and discus it seriously! STF will want as much as possible and rightly so. But also the buyer will want as much money kept aside to aid the debt and funding of the club.

I want Hibs to be in a better place and it's fair to say the current owners haven't delivered for a long time! No shame admitting they have it wrong and finally move on.

Football is changing at a rapid pace and football models all over the world are changing, we have been stuck in the same place for too long now so new owners will be welcomed by me. The biggest thing people fear is change, yet without change we wouldn't have the world we have now!!

I say good luck, and let's see how this pans out.


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We're where we are because of managerial and player failure, not penny-pinching. As someone else has said, we spend more than most of our competitors.

As a future fan owner, would you be willing to extend your Direct Debit to increase the wages of a star player who wants to leave, or to meet the wage demands of a signing target, or the price asked by a club? And how often would you be prepared to do this? Whatever the pros and cons of community ownership, an increase in spending power seems unlikely. The future for Hibs and the other Scottish clubs outside Celtic is going to be about spending within our means; the days of easy credit and lender tolerance to debt seem to be over.

Bostonhibby
11-11-2014, 08:42 AM
If it was a move towards community ownership with the fans having a sizeable stake in the club then I can see it being successful. If it's a case of asking for fans to put up cash so Mr X can acquire the club but he doesn't have the finances to do so himself then it will be less so.

Hopefully the finer points will be made clear when it's launched tomorrow. It should be interesting to hear what is said and what the plans are.

Been thinking about this recently and this is where I am - we shouldn't forget we are not in the yam situation where it was budge on her terms, or die - she is getting to wear the yam badge for a while and is pretty much guaranteed a profitable exit should she want to take it - if she wants to stay or do anything else its her call if they don't pay - not really fan ownership at all, it isn't now and might not be later.

I am all for buying into the club by a rights issue or a meaningful transfer of shares from the holding company if the money can be reinvested in the playing side of the club - if its about transferring it from one business person, or group of business person with the fans paying Farmer and Petrie for the privilege of the new owner enjoying a similar role to budge then its not the sort of progress I would wholeheartedly embrace.

Interesting times ahead I guess.

Bostonhibby
11-11-2014, 08:45 AM
I need to understand what community ownership actually means before I can say too much in this.

My gut reaction though is that it sticks in the craw a touch how many times it's suggested we will be copying the Hearts model...they don't have a model...they needed funds to bail out a bankrupt club and a millionaire to make even that stick. Hibs are a million miles from that scenario.

Let's see the detail.

Right on the money, however it's dressed up this is exactly what it is. The yam only have to stop paying to find out.

lucky
11-11-2014, 08:48 AM
I think some are getting confused about what community ownership is. This group are looking to basically set up a trust fund which owns Hibs, ER and the training facility. Anyone who pays in will be a supporter/member of the trust and will be invited to elect a board of trustees who will run the trust. The trust will then appoint/ elect a board to run the club. It would mean that Hibernian is own by supporters as a collective. But none of individual fans paying in will own anything other than membership of the trust.

I'm not sure this is a model of ownership that Hibs fans want or need. Many supporters have given up on their STs some have even given up on the club. So I'm not sure that thousands will sign up to a monthly DD. Today's press conference at the HSA club will be interesting. It's an open invitation to Hibs fans and starts at 1200

Bostonhibby
11-11-2014, 08:57 AM
I think some are getting confused about what community ownership is. This group are looking to basically set up a trust fund which owns Hibs, ER and the training facility. Anyone who pays in will be a supporter/member of the trust and will be invited to elect a board of trustees who will run the trust. The trust will then appoint/ elect a board to run the club. It would mean that Hibernian is own by supporters as a collective. But none of individual fans paying in will own anything other than membership of the trust.

I'm not sure this is a model of ownership that Hibs fans want or need. Many supporters have given up on their STs some have even given up on the club. So I'm not sure that thousands will sign up to a monthly DD. Today's press conference at the HSA club will be interesting. It's an open invitation to Hibs fans and starts at 1200

:agree: This concept is well understood by me - I think where confusion / cynicism can arise is the reference to budge / the yam model - especially given how it actually works now and where it presently is - where they are not is the model described above and budge is basically their currently more acceptable Vlad. She is presently enjoying the same honeymoon as him, it is she alone who will decide if they move to any other form of ownership than her current choice, when, and on what terms, indeed if it is to be a model similar to that you mention.

Andy74
11-11-2014, 09:14 AM
I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 09:27 AM
No one on this thread has mentioned Petrie until you did. This is not about the Board its about the ownership. And you say penny pinching yet we had the 3rd biggest budget in the SPL last year.

...........


Petrie is an ever-present at the Club because of the backing of the current owner who, when asked, said he would love to have "100 Rod Petries".

That in itself is not enough reason to want ownership change, but it certainly helps.

Islington Hibs
11-11-2014, 09:33 AM
I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Golden Bear
11-11-2014, 09:34 AM
Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.

:top marks

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 09:34 AM
Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.
Maybe, just maybe, the guys behind this proposal are a bit more clued up on running a business, finances and legal issues than the average mug punter on hibs.net?

Maybe they're not 'pushing an agenda'.

Maybe they've come up with a proposal that they believe can unite the fans and lead to greater success on and off the pitch?

I was one who said that fan ownership wasn't a priority, it doesn't mean that I flat out reject the notion and I'm sure there will be many the same.

Let's see what they have to say. Maybe if the proposals are right then fan ownership might become a priority

lord bunberry
11-11-2014, 09:43 AM
We're probably not a million miles away in terms of numbers. Hearts had to come up with £5m over 3 years IIRC.

Hibs debt is c£7m and there is an appetite from Lloyds for Hibs to make them an offer for it. With a change of ownership that could happen albeit I'd guess the success of this bid is reliant on Farmer getting little or nothing back for his prior investments. There is a lot of emphasis on "if it's not about money"....

Do hibs owe Lloyds £7m? I was under the impression that our debt was to stf owned companies.

Ozyhibby
11-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Given that we are 14 points adrift in the championship, I'm really surprised to see people defending Farmer and Petrie on here.
I'm not saying this offer is the solution but we need to hear them out.
And they need to get there act together and put something concrete on the table. It's time for someone to stick their head above the parapet here.

flash
11-11-2014, 09:51 AM
Given that we are 14 points adrift in the championship, I'm really surprised to see people defending Farmer and Petrie on here.
I'm not saying this offer is the solution but we need to hear them out.
And they need to get there act together and put something concrete on the table. It's time for someone to stick their head above the parapet here.

I think its less people backing the current regime and more being understandably wary about this idea.

hughio
11-11-2014, 09:58 AM
I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Good Lord...someone who seems to know what they are talking about!

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 09:59 AM
I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Agree very good post. When has fan ownership ever worked and been meaningful? In the grand scheme of things Hibs are not a big club, we probably have a hard core of 7-8k with another 5k or so occasional/frequent supporters. I am not really sure how this sort of initiative can raise the necessary funds to run the club. Willing to be convinced however I am currently paying 45 or so quid (for seasons for son and I) a month plus extras of going to games/food/strips etc, not sure I really want to be paying any or much more than that especially if this group is run in the same pretty squalid way that HOH appears to be.

lord bunberry
11-11-2014, 10:00 AM
Have we got an MP on board yet?

jacomo
11-11-2014, 10:15 AM
So would you agree that it might be worth seeing how the current set up pans out?

It looks like we finally have the right management team in place across the club, and things like training and player recruitment are now - finally - being done in a professional way.

Since the summer, I have been saying that this was the priority, so I am certainly not going to complain now it looks like we've turned a corner. I think the issues about ownership etc have been a distraction.

However, STF has now been custodian of the club for over 20 years, he doesn't seem to have any particular ambitions left to fulfil, and so maybe it is time to look at what comes next. If we don't, we leave ourselves vulnerable to being taken over by whoever can meet the asking price when STF finally calls it a day.

rcarter1
11-11-2014, 10:23 AM
I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Really great post. Agree with this. I would like to think that the process will be carefully thought through. If STF wants out completely, that would leave the problems of a purely fan led ownership. I think a fan led group could easily fall into dispute, or be knee jerk reactive. However if a strong and well designed constitution was built into the system of governance, Id be less concerned about these issues. Im also not sure why a sugar daddy is an absolute necessity.

Brightside
11-11-2014, 10:35 AM
Still no detail. Until we know who the business backer is - and how much he is willing to bank-roll it remains a non-starter. You simply cannot run Hibs on £20 a month from 4000 fans.

jacomo
11-11-2014, 10:37 AM
Agree very good post. When has fan ownership ever worked and been meaningful? In the grand scheme of things Hibs are not a big club, we probably have a hard core of 7-8k with another 5k or so occasional/frequent supporters. I am not really sure how this sort of initiative can raise the necessary funds to run the club. Willing to be convinced however I am currently paying 45 or so quid (for seasons for son and I) a month plus extras of going to games/food/strips etc, not sure I really want to be paying any or much more than that especially if this group is run in the same pretty squalid way that HOH appears to be.

Barca, Dortmund or most German clubs, AFC Wimbledon etc. There are certainly examples of successful fan-owned clubs. If it brings fans closer to the club and increases attendances and revenues, then we would be better off than under the current regime. It would need elected officials and long-term planning though.

GreenOnions
11-11-2014, 11:09 AM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Bostonhibby
11-11-2014, 11:11 AM
I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Excellent post, says it all really, on the surveys I have filled in I have stressed the need for a meaningful transfer of shares to the fans or whoever represents them as being an absolute minimum. As a business, and a football club we are dependant on someone being involved who can manage / guarantee the credit we get and the rate we get it at, and have the confidence of the finance boys for any going forward debt management - that's what STF has been doing for us. Football clubs like ours require similar figures or rock solid reserve funding / future income.

s.a.m
11-11-2014, 11:24 AM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Yup. I agree with all of that.

I'm not opposed to a different ownership model per se, and I would like STF to let us what his plans for the future are, but I'm sceptical that community ownership will provide the benefits that some seem to think it will, or that it will provoke a similar response to Hearts' model given the difference in circumstances.

HappyAsHellas
11-11-2014, 11:34 AM
Barca, Dortmund or most German clubs, AFC Wimbledon etc. There are certainly examples of successful fan-owned clubs. If it brings fans closer to the club and increases attendances and revenues, then we would be better off than under the current regime. It would need elected officials and long-term planning though.

I believe Barca debts are around 650 million, and that's with 170,000 members - not an ideal scenario in my opinion. The German teams have a great model which works through sponsorship, TV money etc. - no one is going to pay the Scottish league anything like this, so for me, that model is dead in the water. Essentially, I can't think of a model that could apply to Hibs - maybe the Swansea set up where fans own about 20%, but you still need outside investment as we wont have the TV money they get.

If the current regime keeps on improving things on the park, will there be any great feeling of fans wanting change? I seriously doubt it. We have been mismanaged for years, but seem to have addressed that recently with the whole club from the bottom up having a much needed professional approach. Perhaps a bit more time to see where we actually are going with the present set up might not be a bad thing.
We cannot afford fan ownership - pure and simple - so lets take that as our starting point and see where we want to go.

Peevemor
11-11-2014, 11:37 AM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Excellent post.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 11:38 AM
Still no detail. Until we know who the business backer is - and how much he is willing to bank-roll it remains a non-starter. You simply cannot run Hibs on £20 a month from 4000 fans.

There's still no detail because it's not 12:00 yet.

jacomo
11-11-2014, 11:39 AM
The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

This is absolutely the right question to ask. Anyone can make bad decisions - but in our case, we have lacked above all a clear vision and sense of direction from the top. This has led to, amongst other things, poor recruitment, poor use of EM, and poor communication with the fans.

All of this happened on STF's watch. And they weren't isolated issues, but long term failings. This club has underperformed for years under the current owner.

It may be that STF and the conduit have had an epiphany, and such mistakes will never happen again. But they've said nothing in public to give this substance. Without clear and effective leadership, the club remains highly vulnerable if key staff - players, coaches, executives - are poached by other clubs, and decline will set in again.

Golden Bear
11-11-2014, 11:47 AM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Another excellent post which sums up my thoughts precisely.

Poor management decisions have contributed towards our downfall eg the scouting network was allowed to decline in an alarming manner and there appears to have been a lack of structure between the youth and senior coaching set ups. We as fans, could see that and these are specific areas where the Club's Management should be held to account but they are by no means responsible for all the failings.

GreenOnions
11-11-2014, 12:02 PM
This is absolutely the right question to ask. Anyone can make bad decisions - but in our case, we have lacked above all a clear vision and sense of direction from the top. This has led to, amongst other things, poor recruitment, poor use of EM, and poor communication with the fans.

All of this happened on STF's watch. And they weren't isolated issues, but long term failings. This club has underperformed for years under the current owner.

It may be that STF and the conduit have had an epiphany, and such mistakes will never happen again. But they've said nothing in public to give this substance. Without clear and effective leadership, the club remains highly vulnerable if key staff - players, coaches, executives - are poached by other clubs, and decline will set in again.

I think the bit in bold is a little selective to say the least. We were a basket case when STF took over and the transformation of the club over the ensuing fifteen to twenty years was nothing short of remarkable. For me - this took vision and determination in spades. Also - regarding underperformance - with a couple of exceptions (late 1940s and early 70s) our league and cup achievements during STFs time are comparable with most periods in our history despite the fact that he spent a lot of time re-building the club from the ashes of 1990.

Our major problems have developed over the last seven years. I agree that change has been required - but some would argue that change has now been made in the very place that has been at the root of our problems - i.e. the decision-making role in the area of day-to-day running of the club.

Jamie
11-11-2014, 12:10 PM
www.buyhibs.org

BuyHibs
11-11-2014, 12:13 PM
HIBERNIAN FC FANS LAUNCH CAMPAIGN TO BUY THEIR CLUB





‘BUYHIBS’ CALLS ON SIR TOM FARMER TO OPEN DISCUSSIONS ON FAN OWNERSHIP



11 November 2014: A newly formed fans group called ‘BuyHibs’ has announced its intention to unite fans with the aim of buying Hibernian FC.



The group, which will headed by Hibernian legend Pat Stanton, is welcomed by the Hibernian Supporters Association, the Formers Players Association, and the Hibernian Shareholders Association who will be meeting with their members to discuss the best way to support the campaign.



The announcement follows open meetings with supporters and a comprehensive fan survey of over 4000 supporters carried out by Supporters Direct Scotland.



The survey revealed that 84% of supporters believed that it is time to look at fan ownership options and to seek a change of direction in the ownership of the club. 80% also stated that they believed Easter Road should be safeguarded as the future of the club and any change to that would require fan approval. 68% said that they would be willing to join a membership scheme to provide additional income for the club



The ‘BuyHibs’ campaign has also launched new website – www.buyhibs.org (http://www.buyhibs.org/) – where supporters can find out more about the group’s proposals and to pledge financial support. A Twitter presence has also been created - @buyhibs – and Facebook – BuyHibs - to allow information to be shared and discussion to happen.




Pat Stanton said: “The ‘BuyHibs’ campaign has the ultimate aim of buying our club. We are in the fortunate position that the motivation for ‘BuyHibs’ has not been generated from an emergency situation through a threatened insolvency like supporters of other clubs have been faced with. We want to be in a position where we can make a positive contribution to the long term position of our club and to be ready to buy the club when the opportunity arises. We are asking fans to pledge to provide funds which will allow ‘BuyHibs’ to drive positive change, and to give an indication of what size of stake is achievable. We are open to work with all Hibernian minded people and groups who share the same goal.



“As a first step, we call on Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie to meet with us to find and promote a positive and sustainable change for the betterment of Hibernian and to provide Sir Tom with a clear and deserved exit from the club he has backed for many years.”



Director of the BuyHibs campaign, Neil Wheelan said “The club are failing on and off the park and the need for change has never been greater; the club needs a new direction with fresh drive and investment coming into the club. The potential within the Hibernian fanbase is enormous and this must be used to take the club forward.”



“The club needs sweeping changes to bring a new and more positive outlook and the required fresh investment. It would appear that the current custodians have no desire to invest to move the club forward so we call on Sir Tom Farmer to remain true to his word and pass the Football Club, Easter Road Stadium and the East Main Training Academy into a community backed vehicle that safeguards the future of all assets. In doing this it will allow Sir Tom Farmer to leave a legacy for the work that has been done during his time as custodian.



“Greater fan involvement is a must as no one cares about their clubs as much as the supporters do. There also needs to be greater transparency and a greater focus on football. We want the Hibernian support to unite behind the drive to bring positive change and to get our club back where it should be. That will mean having a greater involvement and control over the running of our club. It is our club and our responsibility.”



Andrew Jenkin, of Supporters Direct Scotland added, “Supporters are the heart and soul of any football club and the Buy Hibs campaign shows Hibernian have many passionate, knowledgeable and highly skilled supporters who would like to be further involved in the running of the club. Fan owned clubs are shown to have stronger ties with their communities, attract more sponsorship and encourage greater match day spending. Supporters Direct Scotland are pleased to support and assist the Buy Hibs campaign which potentially offers supporters a greater role in governance through democratic processes". 



For further information visit www.buyhibs.org (http://www.buyhibs.org/).

@BuyHibs
Facebook - BuyHibs

grunt
11-11-2014, 12:20 PM
www.buyhibs.org (http://www.buyhibs.org)"Setting up BuyHibs has obviously involved some expenditure. We’re launching from a standing start so each director has provided £100 seed funding to cover start-up costs."

Commendable, but not exactly indicative of immense wealth. No "off the scale billionaires" for Hibs, then? :)

Brightside
11-11-2014, 12:26 PM
Its after 12...who is the secret millionaire?

smurf
11-11-2014, 12:26 PM
Direct Debit done.

Gatecrasher
11-11-2014, 12:31 PM
How long do BuyHibs expect us to contribute? as long as it takes to buy the club? as long as we can afford it? Once the club is bought will it be run to be self sustainable like we are now?

Interesting times ahead though.

Carheenlea
11-11-2014, 12:33 PM
Couldn`t afford both a season ticket and monthly pledge - so I`ll have to stick with the season ticket.

SmithyHibee
11-11-2014, 12:33 PM
Who are the directors that have put up the £100 each, how many directors are there currently?

Golden Bear
11-11-2014, 12:34 PM
Not for me at present. Further information required.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:35 PM
Its after 12...who is the secret millionaire?

The link to the website is there. There's a 7 page Q&A that your mum can help you read

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 12:36 PM
Its after 12...who is the secret millionaire?


There is none.

Hermit Crab
11-11-2014, 12:37 PM
Not for me at present. Further information required.


Thats where I am just now. :agree:

IanM
11-11-2014, 12:38 PM
we have fans that cant afford tickets as it is.. so they now have an option to pay towards ownership or go to the games when they can afford it.. i know which one is more likely

Spike Mandela
11-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Still not convinced this kind of setup could work in a Scottish setting with a fan base the size of ours or indeed Hearts.

Any evidence of this set up working successfully long term at clubs our size?

Beefster
11-11-2014, 12:39 PM
The link to the website is there. There's a 7 page Q&A that your mum can help you read

I reckon that the folk supporting the initiative from the off should probably be a bit nicer to potential skeptics. The campaign is going to need lots of them to change their minds.

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Not for me at present. Further information required.


:agree:

I've had a look through the website and I'm not yet convinced.


http://www.buyhibs.org/

Brightside
11-11-2014, 12:40 PM
The link to the website is there. There's a 7 page Q&A that your mum can help you read

Ive read it smarty.... who is the backer. Not a single person named.

s.a.m
11-11-2014, 12:42 PM
The link to the website is there. There's a 7 page Q&A that your mum can help you read


Charming.:rolleyes:

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:44 PM
I reckon that the folk supporting the initiative from the off should probably be a bit nicer to potential skeptics. The campaign is going to need lots of them to change their minds.

I'm not supporting it yet. I've yet to make my mind up.

The poster I quoted asked who the secret millionaire is. As there was absolutely no mention of a secret millionaire at any point at all within the articles, I can only assume that he has difficulty with reading and so I kindly suggested that he might benefit from some additional assistance.

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 12:44 PM
Not for me at present. Further information required.

Yup. Talk of a three and five year plan, but nothing on what they are and how they'll be delivered. Which is one of the main stones that's been thrown at the current board.

IMO, if they want people to back this then there's going to have to be a hell of a lot more substance to what has been released today. Many Hibs fans want change but there is nothing there that convinces me that this group is the way to go.

Cabbage East
11-11-2014, 12:44 PM
I would be willing to contribute but would need more information that what has been offered so far.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:45 PM
Ive read it smarty.... who is the backer. Not a single person named.

The backers are the fans. This is a fan ownership proposal.

Nando™
11-11-2014, 12:48 PM
No chance they'll be getting any of my money until things become clearer.

Brightside
11-11-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm not supporting it yet. I've yet to make my mind up.

The poster I quoted asked who the secret millionaire is. As there was absolutely no mention of a secret millionaire at any point at all within the articles, I can only assume that he has difficulty with reading and so I kindly suggested that he might benefit from some additional assistance.

There has been constant chat of business people lined up to invest in the club..ie buy the 49%. The Q&A states that no one is lined up.

There are no financial backers at this point. (that are willing to be named) Why is that?

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:49 PM
Have to laugh at all the people asking for unspecified clarity!

If you have any questions, go ahead and ask!

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 12:50 PM
The backers are the fans. This is a fan ownership proposal.


It does say that they're going to approach potential investors as well. I presume they mean business people with wads of cash.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 12:50 PM
Reading the info available I'd say there is potential here. I'm sure more information will be forthcoming in the weeks and months ahead so I'm happy to hear what is planned and make an informed decision.

I'm not saying this group is the answer or some miracle saviour but I think there is at times a bit of a tendency amongst Hibs fans, and football fans in general, to be quite resistant to change. There is going to come a time where we have to plan for life after Sir Tom and if this group aylt least gets a serious discussion going and engages in genuine dialogue with the club then it will have achieved something.

oneone73
11-11-2014, 12:51 PM
The concept of a Community Interest Company is attractive. I am greatly encouraged by this proposal.

offshorehibby
11-11-2014, 12:52 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 12:52 PM
Who are the directors that have put up the £100 each, how many directors are there currently?

Here are the named people on the site.

http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/

Skimmed through the site, quite professionally done and the credentials of some of the team look quite impressive however clearly states they dont have any investors lined up which IMO would be a concern.

How much money could realistically be raised doing this?

Brightside
11-11-2014, 12:52 PM
The backers are the fans. This is a fan ownership proposal.

51% fans..... someone has the buy the remaining amount from Sir Tom. Can we agree that no-one is lined up to do that at the moment?

bruno
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Who are the directors that have put up the £100 each, how many directors are there currently?

The BuyHibs teamPat StantonHibs fan, Hibs player, Hibs captain, Hibs manager. Mr Hibernian. It’s fair to say that Pat Stanton, chairman of BuyHibs, needs no introduction to fellow Hibs fans. A Hibernian legend, recently saluted at Easter Road to celebrate his 70th birthday, Pat believes BuyHibs can return success to Easter Road:
“We want to be in a position where we can make a positive contribution to the long term position of our club and to be ready to buy the club when the opportunity arises. We call on Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie to meet with us to find and promote a positive and sustainable change for the betterment of Hibernian and to provide Sir Tom with a clear and deserved exit from the club he has backed for many years.”
Neil WheelanNeil has worked in financial services for nearly 20 years and specialises in building proposals and communication plans for corporate clients. Neil’s key strengths are putting a plan in place using different medium to ensure that the message is understood by the relevant audience to achieve maximum buy in and understanding.
A season ticket holder for over 20 years, Neil is keen to see the club focus on football and to get back to producing entertaining and winning teams. Neil was once a Hibs mascot, and the majestic Ally ‘ Benny’ Brazil was the man with the armband that day.
Paul KaneA Hibs fans who lived the dream, making over 290 appearances in eight years as a Hibernian player. A regular at Easter Road and the founder of the Hibernian Former Player’s Association, Paul is committed to helping BuyHibs achieve positive change at Easter Road.
Dawn RobertsonDawn Robertson is a practising lawyer, having qualified as a solicitor in Scotland in 1999. With a background in litigation, Dawn is accredited as a specialist in employment law by the Law Society of Scotland and is a partner with Scottish firm, Young and Partners Business Lawyers.
Dawn is an almost lifelong Hibs fan, with fond memories of (briefly) getting to hold the Skol Cup after the 1991 win.
Douglas Roxburgh MBEDouglas is now retired after a long career in local authority childcare and a social care provision manager. A foster carer for 27 years, Douglas was awarded the MBE for services to residential childcare in 2012.
A council member and minute secretary at the Hibernian Supporters Association, Douglas is an active supporter and fundraiser for charities throughout Edinburgh and the Lothians.
Andrew SibleyAndrew is currently a Senior Vice President, Emerging Markets for Desso, a leading global carpets and sports pitches manufacturer. As a senior executive responsible for Desso’s markets in the rising economies, Andrew has experience of developing new business and companies in regions including Eastern Europe,Russia,Middle East, Latin America, Asia and Pacific. Andrew’s career started in the financial services with First National Bank of Boston and HSBC. He has significant experience with international business and managing large corporations with innovation and creativity at their forefront.
Married with three grown-up children – all Hibs fans – Andrew lives in North Berwick. Seeing Bobby Smith score from 35 yards against Rangers during his first game at Easter Road in the 1970s sold him on Hibs. A long term East Stand season ticket holder, Andrew couldn’t imagine watching the game from anywhere else.
Ashley ThorneAshley is a learning and development professional with over 10 years experience working with both national and international brands such as Gala Coral, Thistle Hotels and Hilton.
Ashley specialises in operational and strategic support, communication, brand awareness and organisational development and has worked extensively across the UK, US and Europe and is currently the national training and development manager for a football and leisure company based in the UK.

green&left
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Guess we won't know much more until Farmer names his price.

However a change of regime is needed and welcomed by me so gets my backing.

Hopefully a further meeting at a more convenient time after working hours is planned for introductions from the team, Q&A etc.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
There has been constant chat of business people lined up to invest in the club..ie buy the 49%. The Q&A states that no one is lined up.

There are no financial backers at this point. (that are willing to be named) Why is that?

My guess would be because they have only launched the campaign less than an hour ago to fans, businesses, investors and the club alike. Theres been no secret meetings or discussions going on. Everyone is being invited on at the ground floor.

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Have to laugh at all the people asking for unspecified clarity!

If you have any questions, go ahead and ask!

I think you need to wind your neck in and stop being so condescending to people who will potentially make or break your proposal.

A little bit of coutesy goes a long way.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 12:54 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.

Bit of a chicken and egg situation that.

Nando™
11-11-2014, 12:54 PM
Have to laugh at all the people asking for unspecified clarity!

If you have any questions, go ahead and ask!

People are already doing so in this very thread.

jacomo
11-11-2014, 12:55 PM
I think the bit in bold is a little selective to say the least. We were a basket case when STF took over and the transformation of the club over the ensuing fifteen to twenty years was nothing short of remarkable. For me - this took vision and determination in spades. Also - regarding underperformance - with a couple of exceptions (late 1940s and early 70s) our league and cup achievements during STFs time are comparable with most periods in our history despite the fact that he spent a lot of time re-building the club from the ashes of 1990.

Our major problems have developed over the last seven years. I agree that change has been required - but some would argue that change has now been made in the very place that has been at the root of our problems - i.e. the decision-making role in the area of day-to-day running of the club.

Fair enough, but this doesn't change the fact that STF has now been in charge for 20+ years. Does he have the appetite to continue indefinitely? If not, we will need to face up to the possibility of a new owner or owners.

Golden Bear
11-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Have to laugh at all the people asking for unspecified clarity!

If you have any questions, go ahead and ask!

Where do "Hands on Hibs" fit into this? Do they have any involvement at all?

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.

Bit of an own goal IMO.

I think it would carry a lot more gravitas if these businessmen made themselves known at the outset. It would no doubt put some minds at ease if they did.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 12:55 PM
I think you need to wind your neck in and stop being so condescending to people who will potentially make or break your proposal.

A little bit of coutesy goes a long way.

Spot on.

I see potential in what I'm reading but a good, solid PR campaign is going to be crucial to getting it off the ground. Nippy comments and smart erse remarks are the anti thesis of that.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 12:57 PM
Where do "Hands on Hibs" fit into this? Do they have any involvement at all?

As far as I'm aware, having spoken to 1 or 2 involved in BuyHibs the last couple of days, HOH are 100% not involved.

Liberal Hibby
11-11-2014, 12:58 PM
The concept of a Community Interest Company is attractive. I am greatly encouraged by this proposal.

It is interesting, but I was wondering why they chose to limit dividends to an arbitrary 10% - why not zero? I don't know if the company limited by guarantee model exists north of the border, but it has the merit of not allowing a dividend to be distributed among shareholders - ensuring 100% of income is kept within the company.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 12:59 PM
51% fans..... someone has the buy the remaining amount from Sir Tom. Can we agree that no-one is lined up to do that at the moment?
Not according to their proposals.



"BuyHibs propose a new ownership model with three key elements:

Sir Tom Farmer to retain a 26% interest as a golden share

BuyHibs – with the backing of Hibs supporters – and Sir Tom Farmer to own a majority (ie over 50%) of Hibs

Allow investors to make an investment and bring their own expertise and experience to the board of Hibernian Football Club

The final percentages owned by both BuyHibs and additional investors are unknown – they’d be dependent on both interest from investors and the backing Hibs fans give BuyHibs.

BuyHibs is not advocating 100% fan ownership of Hibernian Football Club and we are not attempting to “force” Sir Tom Farmer out of the club.

If Sir Tom Farmer did want to give up all interest in Hibs, BuyHibs would be open to purchasing his remaining shares in the future.

We believe that a model of 51% fan ownership and 49% business ownership – what’s often known as the “German model” – is the most attractive method of fan ownership for Hibs.

But BuyHibs aims to be a pragmatic organisation with final percentages based on what works in practice rather than what is said to work in theory."

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 12:59 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.

Took this line from the site which seems to contradict the comment about businessmen already being in place.

"Our ownership model also includes space for additional investors. We don’t have investors in place but we will be launching discussions with various parties immediately".

ElginHibbie
11-11-2014, 01:00 PM
As they are yet to have discussions with the club about said proposal it's not for me at the moment.

If they do come to some sort of agreement with the club I will be much more interested, but of course be keeping a close eye on it all to see what answers BuyHibs to people's questions.

Bad Martini
11-11-2014, 01:01 PM
**** it, popularity is well overrated and for the vein. I couldnae gie a **** about either :greengrin

OK, so lets be clear on some things:

1) Hearts "done this" (they didnt, but lets suppose they did similar) because they HAD to...if they didnt have whip rounds/bake-a-thons/whateverthe**** they done, they would have GONE BUST....we're not. And we wont. Big difference.

2) This model mentions buying all the assets; the club, the stadium, east mains. No big headline about buying the DEBT...by the way, that's a wee brucie bonus you get for **** all when you aquire in the manner suggested.

3) The hunt is on to find a) Financially savvy, responsible, willing and sympathetic "businesses" to assist here. Personally, I canny see any nor have any been lining up for the last five years/ten years.

4) What happens if 1/6th, 1/5th, 1/4 or more of the fan base loses their job? Mortgage or keeping Hibs afloat by donations? Serious question - do we think the players will accept no wages or bills dont get paid? Not being wide, being 100% serious. This donation-a-thon we ripped the yams for was ripped for a reason. Its risky...

I am more than ALL for the fans, folks like us "owning" the club. However, I'm ever more for the club being secure and I'd rather we slowly built ourselves back up (which we will end up paying for as the fans always do, directly via tickets, season tickets and merchandise) and we see how the new incumbents go, than we recklessly go for fan ownership with many questions.

NOW, that's all oot the windae if a rich Hibs supporting millionaire comes along with money to burn on the transfer market and such like. THEN, I say show me the money and we get 1000% behind it...til then, security and substance is the order of the day.

And as I said, popularity is well overrated :greengrin:aok::thumbsup::duck::rules::paid:

END(OF) :aok:

Brightside
11-11-2014, 01:02 PM
"BuyHibs – with the backing of Hibs supporters – and Sir Tom Farmer to own a majority (ie over 50%) of Hibs"

Again - someone has to buy the other 49%. Im not against change but the fact remains that without a large investor its not realistic.

Or if you are reading it differently the 49% - the 26% golden share they are leaving with Sir Tom?

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 01:03 PM
Where do "Hands on Hibs" fit into this? Do they have any involvement at all?
Not at all mate.

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 01:04 PM
**** it, popularity is well overrated and for the vein. I couldnae gie a **** about either :greengrin

OK, so lets be clear on some things:

1) Hearts "done this" (they didnt, but lets suppose they did similar) because they HAD to...if they didnt have whip rounds/bake-a-thons/whateverthe**** they done, they would have GONE BUST....we're not. And we wont. Big difference.

2) This model mentions buying all the assets; the club, the stadium, east mains. No big headline about buying the DEBT...by the way, that's a wee brucie bonus you get for **** all when you aquire in the manner suggested.

3) The hunt is on to find a) Financially savvy, responsible, willing and sympathetic "businesses" to assist here. Personally, I canny see any nor have any been lining up for the last five years/ten years.

4) What happens if 1/6th, 1/5th, 1/4 or more of the fan base loses their job? Mortgage or keeping Hibs afloat by donations? Serious question - do we think the players will accept no wages or bills dont get paid? Not being wide, being 100% serious. This donation-a-thon we ripped the yams for was ripped for a reason. Its risky...

I am more than ALL for the fans, folks like us "owning" the club. However, I'm ever more for the club being secure and I'd rather we slowly built ourselves back up (which we will end up paying for as the fans always do, directly via tickets, season tickets and merchandise) and we see how the new incumbents go, than we recklessly go for fan ownership with many questions.

NOW, that's all oot the windae if a rich Hibs supporting millionaire comes along with money to burn on the transfer market and such like. THEN, I say show me the money and we get 1000% behind it...til then, security and substance is the order of the day.

And as I said, popularity is well overrated :greengrin:aok::thumbsup::duck::rules::paid:

END(OF) :aok:

Excellent summation BM :aok:

Waxy
11-11-2014, 01:05 PM
Reckon we are a bit early with this. Lets see how the guineapigs er i mean hearts fare first.

scoopyboy
11-11-2014, 01:05 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.


Wrong way round for me.

Let the business men come forward and let us decide then.

It's not a f****** quiz show, put a million quid in and find out who is behind door number 3.

We have cried out for openness from the club and then we are faced with people who are going to rescue us hiding their identity.

Gatecrasher
11-11-2014, 01:06 PM
How many fans do they hope to get on board with this to make it a realistic bid?

hibee_nation
11-11-2014, 01:07 PM
When will these directors come forward so we know who they are, and if i put in a £100 do i become a director.

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 01:08 PM
I think you need to wind your neck in and stop being so condescending to people who will potentially make or break your proposal.

A little bit of coutesy goes a long way.

For the sake of removing all doubt, this is 100% not my proposal in any way, shape or form. Let that be clear.

Golden Bear
11-11-2014, 01:08 PM
From the Q&A section:-

54.Are you proposing that Leeann Dempster and George Craig stand down from
the Board? Not necessarily, although it must be recognised that wholesale change is
required and that the current board have continually failed us.



It's totally unfair to even associate LD & GC with the perceived failings of their predecessors.

leither17
11-11-2014, 01:08 PM
Not at all mate.

Thank **** for that

Brightside
11-11-2014, 01:09 PM
When will these directors come forward so we know who they are, and if i put in a £100 do i become a director.

They are mentioned in the About Us section.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 01:09 PM
[/B]

Wrong way round for me.

Let the business men come forward and let us decide then.

It's not a f****** quiz show, put a million quid in and find out who is behind door number 3.

We have cried out for openness from the club and then we are faced with people who are going to rescue us hiding their identity.

Agree with that. The carrot of some potential business people waiting anonymously to invest significantly doesnt fit well and to be honest the website clearly indicates that no investors are in place which casts doubt whether these business people exist at all. Cart before the horse for me.

Ozyhibby
11-11-2014, 01:10 PM
Had a good look round the site. Can't see who's behind this scheme? Am I missing something?

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 01:10 PM
For the sake of removing all doubt, this is 100% not my proposal in any way, shape or form. Let that be clear.

:aok:

In that case, I'm sure there will be someone along from BuyHibs to answer the questions that are being raised then, especially if they're happy enough to promote/announce their proposal on here.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 01:10 PM
From the Q&A section:-

54.Are you proposing that Leeann Dempster and George Craig stand down from
the Board? Not necessarily, although it must be recognised that wholesale change is
required and that the current board have continually failed us.



It's totally unfair to even associate LD & GC with the perceived failings of their predecessors.

Agree thought that was very poor for that to be in there at all.

Steve20
11-11-2014, 01:13 PM
How many fans can realistically afford to regularly pay more money on top of season tickets etc?

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 01:13 PM
Had a good look round the site. Can't see who's behind this scheme? Am I missing something?

http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/

micksoo
11-11-2014, 01:14 PM
If we want change we need to take a leap of faith. I am impressed by the credentials and motivations of those involved. My Direct Debit is done and excited about where this can take us.

Just Alf
11-11-2014, 01:14 PM
From the Q&A section:-

54.Are you proposing that Leeann Dempster and George Craig stand down from
the Board? Not necessarily, although it must be recognised that wholesale change is
required and that the current board have continually failed us.



It's totally unfair to even associate LD & GC with the perceived failings of their predecessors.


Agree thought that was very poor for that to be in there at all.

That stood out for me too.... dissappointing

My_Wife_Camille
11-11-2014, 01:15 PM
:aok:

In that case, I'm sure there will be someone along from BuyHibs to answer the questions that are being raised then, especially if they're happy enough to promote/announce their proposal on here.

Agreed and I hope they do. I think there's potential in this one. I hope they can address the concerns of some of the people on here but people need to make those concerns known instead of just making vague statements about a lack of clarity.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 01:16 PM
How many fans can realistically afford to regularly pay more money on top of season tickets etc?

I think having a starting price point of £10 a month makes it relatively accessible.

Not saying everyone can afford that but it's a number that isn't inflated or alienating.

GreenLake
11-11-2014, 01:17 PM
I will wait to hear what the plans are for HibsTV and live video streaming before contributing. The frustration of yet another audio only stream drove me to buy a ticket for the Galaxy semi-final last Sunday and the entertainment value was much better than I expected (http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2014/11/09/highlights-la-galaxy-vs-real-salt-lake-november-9-2014). Perhaps I should buy a couple of season tickets and support my local community team. :greengrin

bigwheel
11-11-2014, 01:18 PM
a very uninspiring press release and FQA for me....lack of depth of real business leadership in the buyhibs "team"....

I can't see enough support for this. We don't have the motivation of insolvency to act..It will require a much more convincing vision and strategy than is outlined in the initial communications...

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 01:18 PM
Agreed and I hope they do. I think there's potential in this one. I hope they can address the concerns of some of the people on here but people need to make those concerns known instead of just making vague statements about a lack of clarity.

Theres nothing vague about it - they've launched this today with no real plan being laid out as to how they're going to achieve their aims, claims of businessmen prepared to back it but not prepared to be named and lots of basic questions around what they want to do immediately being asked.

If there's anything that's vague, then it's the whole proposal as it stands just now IMO.

Steve20
11-11-2014, 01:19 PM
I think having a starting price point of £10 a month makes it relatively accessible.

Not saying everyone can afford that but it's a number that isn't inflated or alienating.

Surely there's going to need to be a huge number of people who take up the offer at just £10 a month then to be able to make this work.

I'd love this to work though.

Ozyhibby
11-11-2014, 01:23 PM
http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/

Thanks, don't know why I could not find it.
On the face of it, it looks a strong team to start with. Once we get more info then I will be pledging. The key thing is that the current owners are willing to do a deal.
I would also be keen for Leeann Dempster to be given time by new owners to carry on with her work as early signs are good.
All that comes about and I'm in.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 01:25 PM
Surely there's going to need to be a huge number of people who take up the offer at just £10 a month then to be able to make this work.

I'd love this to work though.

Agreed.

I suppose the thought process will be that £10 makes it available to almost everyone but those who can afford more will pay more. I'm undecided about pledging at the moment but if I decide to it would probably be at a higher mark than the £10.

chorley_fm
11-11-2014, 01:26 PM
I've been a friend and work colleague of Ashley Thorne for a number of years and a more passionate and committed Hibby you won't easily find.

:flag:

Juice-Terry
11-11-2014, 01:27 PM
£20/month pledged.

worcesterhibby
11-11-2014, 01:32 PM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Sums up my feeling perfectly..LD and AS seem to be doing an excellent job of turning hibs structure and playing side around. I fail to see why we would want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However it would be very beneficial if Sir Tom outlined his long term strategy for the club.

offshorehibby
11-11-2014, 01:37 PM
Took this line from the site which seems to contradict the comment about businessmen already being in place.

"Our ownership model also includes space for additional investors. We don’t have investors in place but we will be launching discussions with various parties immediately".

I asked the question and in a round about way Kano's answer was they had in place.

offshorehibby
11-11-2014, 01:38 PM
[/B]

Wrong way round for me.

Let the business men come forward and let us decide then.

It's not a f****** quiz show, put a million quid in and find out who is behind door number 3.

We have cried out for openness from the club and then we are faced with people who are going to rescue us hiding their identity.

I totally agree.

Ozyhibby
11-11-2014, 01:40 PM
The important thing now will be the response from the club.
This is dead in the water unless Farmer and Petrie are willing to sell up and name their price.

Chuck Rhoades
11-11-2014, 01:41 PM
People should really read the thought 60 q&as on the website.

TowerHibs
11-11-2014, 01:41 PM
For all the mocking we gave Hearts fans at least they pledged without knowing.

So many comments if "no, not for me" "I want more info". Have these people requested more info, have they been to meetings???

We may not be in the financial mess as Hearts were but we are certainly in a bloody mess and potentially worse if we don't go up.

Blind loyalty or not and as much as I hate them, the jambos jumped in balls first. I genuinely don't think our support care enough

The Green Goblin
11-11-2014, 01:47 PM
For all the mocking we gave Hearts fans at least they pledged without knowing. We may not be in the financial mess as Hearts were but we are certainly in a bloody mess and potentially worse if we don't go up.

Blind loyalty or not and as much as I hate them, the jambos jumped in balls first. I genuinely don't think our support care enough

What choice did they have, compared to ours though? It was all or nothing, extinction or pledge. Not the same situation at all.

RIP
11-11-2014, 01:47 PM
Sums up my feeling perfectly..LD and AS seem to be doing an excellent job of turning hibs structure and playing side around. I fail to see why we would want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However it would be very beneficial if Sir Tom outlined his long term strategy for the club.

Agree with this

A new ownership structure with Farmer retaining a stake combined with Leeann as CEO, the new football operation and Alan Stubbs as head coach could be a strong suit.

Petrie has been about the worst administrator in Scottish football with 2 relegations and mismanagement of one of the top teams in the country. His bland, corporate, outsourced business model replaced by a private/ public partnership led by a top CEO and traditional Hibs values at it's core would be an exiting prospect

smurf
11-11-2014, 01:48 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

grunt
11-11-2014, 01:49 PM
On the face of it, it looks a strong team to start with.Curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Do you know these people? Or is it just that there are 7 names there, two of them former players and one with an MBE, so that makes it a strong team? Just wondering.

Brightside
11-11-2014, 01:50 PM
[/B]

Wrong way round for me.

Let the business men come forward and let us decide then.

It's not a f****** quiz show, put a million quid in and find out who is behind door number 3.

We have cried out for openness from the club and then we are faced with people who are going to rescue us hiding their identity.

This is 100% it... Every single clubs needs someone with dosh behind them in order to operate in the current market. Why wont these people come forward?

RIP
11-11-2014, 01:51 PM
Curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Do you know these people? Or is it just that there are 7 names there, two of them former players and one with an MBE, so that makes it a strong team? Just wondering.

No doubt you will get a chance to meet their team in due course. Early days atm

KeithTheHibby
11-11-2014, 01:52 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?


This. The attitude of some on this thread sums up Hibs.net.

Brightside
11-11-2014, 01:53 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

Its not negative Smurf. Asking for information. There must be a financial backer.

jacomo
11-11-2014, 01:53 PM
Well, I've just spent lunchtime reading the Buy Hibs site, and I'm pretty impressed. Clear, well thought out and comprehensive explanation of their rationale and plan. I'm going to pledge £20 a month.

(There's no option to play £62 or £70 a month, but then we aren't as childish as our neighbours. There's no fleur de lys either :greengrin).

One thing I would say is that the Board lacks real business heavy weights, or finance experts, and there doesn't appear to be a wealthy white knight involved. I think they will need to bring more people in as the project develops.

Smartie
11-11-2014, 01:53 PM
Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

Excellent post.

I still think that RP needs to go, if only to emphasise that LD really is in charge of things to those who doubt this.

I maintain that appointing LD may yet prove to be the best thing that RP ever did for us but we have to create a structure that means that LD, AS or whoever can be replaced if they are "headhunted" to go elsewhere (a bit like the Swansea phenomenon).

It's easy to focus on the things that the board do wrong when things aren't going right on the park but hopefully we are going in the right direction again. There have been many positives achieved during STF's time in charge (as well as the obvious negatives) and w should bear this in mind when considering proposals that may bring about massive change.

KeithTheHibby
11-11-2014, 01:53 PM
This is 100% it... Every single clubs needs someone with dosh behind them in order to operate in the current market. Why wont these people come forward?


Why should they? Are you telling me if you knew who it was you would pledge? Do you not trust them?

Gatecrasher
11-11-2014, 01:53 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

I think we are right to get the answers we need before thinking about any money in.

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 01:54 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

I don't think it's negativity, I think it's realism. I don't believe that any Hibs fan does not want change in some form (I know I do) and we all know Tom Farmer isn't going to be around forever and on that basis it will need to change regardless.

That doesn't mean we should necessarily jump in with two feet to one of the first things that come along, particularly as there appear to be a lot of questions that people need asked.

if they can be answered, then I'm sure there will be a lot more people sign up to be part of this.

Ozyhibby
11-11-2014, 01:57 PM
Curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Do you know these people? Or is it just that there are 7 names there, two of them former players and one with an MBE, so that makes it a strong team? Just wondering.

That's why I said on the face of it.
I need to do more research.
I could not give two hoots about having Pat Stanton or Paul Kane on board, although I recognise that it's important for some people.
I was referring to the small bio's of the other 5 members. I know these are as reliable as someone's CV but they are a starting point.
The MBE is a black mark for me.
Are you of the opinion that this is not a strong team? Any info on them would be much appreciated.

grunt
11-11-2014, 02:03 PM
That's why I said on the face of it.
I need to do more research.
...
Are you of the opinion that this is not a strong team? Any info on them would be much appreciated.Sorry, I don't know them, I was just commenting on your phrase that "it looks a strong team". Without knowing any of them, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion its a strong team, or a weak team, or any other kind of team.

But enough of this.

Good luck to buyhibs, I hope they get a chance to prove themselves, and whatever happens, that the club finds itself in safe hands going forward. Even if those safe hands belong to STF :wink:.

Mikey
11-11-2014, 02:04 PM
This. The attitude of some on this thread sums up Hibs.net.

Surely it sums up the thoughts of some of the Hibs fans who use Hibs.net?

Steve20
11-11-2014, 02:05 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

People just want answers as too much is still up in the air. As someone has said, there has to be a financial backer. Otherwise, we could leave ourselves in a financial mess if we go ahead and people start pulling out of their monthly payments for whatever reason. That's why I still think we don't have enough supporters for this to work long term. I don't think fan ownership will work long term at Hearts for the same reason.

Andy74
11-11-2014, 02:11 PM
So what do we get for our cash that we don't now?

Geo_1875
11-11-2014, 02:21 PM
I'm confused.

STF to transfer all Hibs assets to a CIC and have 26% of said CIC. BuyHibs, with the help of fans and STF to own a majority of shares (50%+). Additional investors to own balance.

No mention of debt transfer. How are shares valued when additional investments are unknown? Why should STF hand over the club then finance BuyHibs to buy their share and underwrite the existing debt?

Have they got agreement of STF that he's happy to go ahead or is this just trying to apply more pressure? I can see this dying a death.

Anyway, I don't want to own a CIC/Trust that owns a football club. I want to support Hibs.

KeithTheHibby
11-11-2014, 02:23 PM
Surely it sums up the thoughts of some of the Hibs fans who use Hibs.net?


This. I was typing in a rage:greengrin

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 02:26 PM
Another quick thing - if they were successful, and STF still owned a 26% share, then presumably he'd still have a voice on the board.

Who do you think that voice would be? :cb

Deansy
11-11-2014, 02:27 PM
For me it's all about 'Balance' - ideally it'd be having a board of people all determined to bring success to the club whilst running it professionally. At the moment the 'Balance' is '90% Business - 10% Football' - that has to change !

SunshineOnLeith
11-11-2014, 02:29 PM
Quote contained in the Scotsman article:

“There have been previous attempts get the club back into community ownership, and in many ways this is the last throw of the dice for us. We either do it this time - or we walk away and leave Hibernian at the mercy of the current owners."

Don't let the door hit you on the way out then, cheerie bye!

grunt
11-11-2014, 02:37 PM
Quote contained in the Scotsman articleThere's similar wording on their website:


If fans do not support BuyHibs in sufficient numbers we believe Hibs face a difficult and uncertain future with the future of both Easter Road and the Hibernian Training Centre of particular concern.

We also fear that without real change to the ownership model Hibs will struggle to secure the additional investment required to return the first team to the postion the fans expect and deserve.

We’re also aware of rumours regarding other bids being made for Hibs. BuyHibs is clear that alternative bids should only be supported if they include an element of fan ownership and the unequivocal protection of Hibernian’s assets.


I note the comment about the future of Easter Road and the HTC. Are these the same people behind HoH? Wasn't that their concern as well? I could be wrong (often am).

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 02:41 PM
I think people need to read right through the Website to see if answers to their specific questions have been supplied. It looks like this group went to a great deal of trouble to supply as much information as they could at this point, the least we can do is not write it off with vague complaints that may actually be answered, if we could just be bothered to look.

Before anybody asks, I've got no connection with this group and not promoting it in any way, just asking people to be fair to those making this proposal.

I'm also not yet convinced but willing to wait for further clarity/developments before writing it off as a waste of time. I am, however, grateful that they are out in the open about who they are and what their aims are for the Club, even although I disagree with some of their proposals, e.g. possible removal of LD.

Liberal Hibby
11-11-2014, 02:51 PM
I'm confused.

STF to transfer all Hibs assets to a CIC and have 26% of said CIC. BuyHibs, with the help of fans and STF to own a majority of shares (50%+). Additional investors to own balance.

No mention of debt transfer. How are shares valued when additional investments are unknown? Why should STF hand over the club then finance BuyHibs to buy their share and underwrite the existing debt?

Have they got agreement of STF that he's happy to go ahead or is this just trying to apply more pressure? I can see this dying a death.

Anyway, I don't want to own a CIC/Trust that owns a football club. I want to support Hibs.

I don't think that's what's being proposed. I think STF would have 26% of the shares in Hibernian Holdings (the club) with the CIC holding 50% - leaving 22% for unnamed 'big investors' and 2% for the current shareholders.

Although I may have picked it up wrongly and they do talk about capping dividend to 10% of income (which concerns me as it could mean £100,000s taken out annually which ought to go on the team).

If we go down this route I'd prefer a company limited by guarantee or Industrial and Provident Society model which can't pay dividends and have to reinvest any surplus in the business.

scoopyboy
11-11-2014, 02:54 PM
Why should they? Are you telling me if you knew who it was you would pledge? Do you not trust them?

Because we deserve to know as long suffering fans,

I'll rephrase the question for you.

Have they something to hide that they're not coming out in the open?

My gut feeling to my own question is no but see no reason for the smokescreen.

I will contribute of that I'm certain, but not until I have a full picture.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 02:59 PM
Got to despair at the negativity on this thread. Why can't we embrace the opportunity for badly required change?

Alot of the questions are totally valid at this time. Clearly says on the site they dont have investors yet at the meeting there appears to have been some indication there may be, which one is it.

lucky
11-11-2014, 03:10 PM
If I'm reading this proposal correctly the fans would own 25%, STF 26%, personal investors 49% with a maximum dividend paid of 10% per annum. If STF gives away the club to BuyHibs and rights of the debt. What's the pledges for? There still seems an awful lot of this being about STF and banks being generous in giving away ownership and debt forgiveness

Just Alf
11-11-2014, 03:11 PM
Another quick thing - if they were successful, and STF still owned a 26% share, then presumably he'd still have a voice on the board.

Who do you think that voice would be? :cb

I'm sure STF could find someone, he's quite well connected after all.... maybe someone that's been around footy a bit.... they could be his "Conduit" :hmmm:

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
11-11-2014, 03:13 PM
I've read the website, but i'm still a bit unclear on what the fan-pledged money is for?

Is to purchase the club from STF? Will the DDs continue after that? Are the DDs to pay down the debt? Are they to continue indefinitely?

I think the idea has potential, but so far I don't think they have explained their strategy very well. For example, basing a business plan on 'engaging with those thousands of disconnected Hibbies' (or words to that effect) is fairly meaningless and aspirational. HOW do they propose to do that is the real question? And HOW do they propose to ensure on-pitch success, and how would that differ from now?

Like the point about being a club in the community and not a community club though.

I'm healthily sceptical, but hoping to be convinced. But I certainly wont be pledging just yet...

Brightside
11-11-2014, 03:18 PM
This. I was typing in a rage:greengrin

I dont see it as negative tho....i;d like to think Im one of the more positive people on this board. BUT would you give me £50 a month to bet on a Horse that you didnt even know the name of?

SunshineOnLeith
11-11-2014, 03:22 PM
There's similar wording on their website:



I note the comment about the future of Easter Road and the HTC. Are these the same people behind HoH? Wasn't that their concern as well? I could be wrong (often am).


It's all a bit disingenuous, saying they want 3 things: HFC, ER and HTC. Of course, HFC already own the other two so there's no need to address them separately in that way unless you're trying to hint at/suggest otherwise.

The tone of 'we're the only show in town and if you don't back us you're stuffed' immediately turns me off. We're not Hearts, it's not a choice between this group or extinction.

Personally hope this goes nowhere and raises no money.

grunt
11-11-2014, 03:24 PM
I've read the website, but i'm still a bit unclear on what the fan-pledged money is for?

I think this is the bit you're looking for, but it doesn't answer all your questions:


That’s why we’re asking fans to pledge money on a monthly basis. The funds raised will be used to buy shares in the new Community Interest Company.

The Hibs fans will then own a percentage in Hibs. By maintaining your pledge each month you’ll have an interest in our share of the ownership, with voting rights following a one member, one vote structure.



Is to purchase the club from STF? Will the DDs continue after that? Are the DDs to pay down the debt? Are they to continue indefinitely?

My reading of the part quoted is that, as long as you maintain your DD, you'll either "own a percentage" or "have an interest in our share" - not clear on the difference here. The use of the word "maintaining" indicates to me that if you stop your DD, you cease to either own a share or have an interest in a share.

I'm sure this will all be clarified.

ManBearPig
11-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Agree with this

A new ownership structure with Farmer retaining a stake combined with Leeann as CEO, the new football operation and Alan Stubbs as head coach could be a strong suit.

Petrie has been about the worst administrator in Scottish football with 2 relegations and mismanagement of one of the top teams in the country. His bland, corporate, outsourced business model replaced by a private/ public partnership led by a top CEO and traditional Hibs values at it's core would be an exiting prospect


Very well said couldn't agree more but I flat out cant afford any more than my family's season tickets

HappyAsHellas
11-11-2014, 03:26 PM
I believe that what has been published so far is an outline to open negotiations with STF. The final details will have to be ironed out, but if it ticks the boxes for community and security that seem to be what STF is looking for, then things could turn out very well for the future of the club. I think keeping STF involved is a shrewd move, as that in itself will maintain the financial security of the venture. Negotiations such as these will not take place in a matter of days, so there's no point in looking for negatives at the present moment. The only downside I can see is the apparent statement that LD might not be secure in the future, which I find totally unjustifiable. I will wait and see what events unfold, but I'm a lot happier with this movement than HoH. Time will tell.

grunt
11-11-2014, 03:29 PM
The only downside I can see is the apparent statement that LD might not be secure in the future, which I find totally unjustifiable.Where does it say this please?

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 03:30 PM
Although I may have picked it up wrongly and they do talk about capping dividend to 10% of income (which concerns me as it could mean £100,000s taken out annually which ought to go on the team).

I thought that was a pretty odd proposal too

Why would we then potentially be taking money out of the club that could be used by it? Even a capped amount is too much, every penny that comes into Hibs should be used by the club, not for paying anyone a dividend.

Pete
11-11-2014, 03:32 PM
Very well said couldn't agree more but I flat out cant afford any more than my family's season tickets

Agree with both posts. I don't want to or need to own part of hibs. I spend enough watching them but I'd reconsider if we were at deaths door.

The Green Goblin
11-11-2014, 03:33 PM
Where does it say this please?

In the Q and As

grunt
11-11-2014, 03:36 PM
In the Q and AsThank you, hadn't got that far!


54. Are you proposing that Leeann Dempster and George Craig stand down from the Board? Not necessarily, although it must be recognised that wholesale change is required and that the current board have continually failed us.

Seems rather harsh on these two in particular - "continually failed us"?

jacomo
11-11-2014, 03:36 PM
I thought that was a pretty odd proposal too

Why would we then potentially be taking money out of the club that could be used by it? Even a capped amount is too much, every penny that comes into Hibs should be used by the club, not for paying anyone a dividend.

Maybe they feel to offer a return to attract potential investors?

Although, at the moment STF doesn't take any money out of the club (noises off: Oh Yes He Does!) so it seems silly to buy him off with money which will cost up to 10% a year.

IWasThere2016
11-11-2014, 03:38 PM
We need change.

It is long overdue IMHO.

Hopefully this is the start of that process and a brighter future for the Hibs :thumbsup:

SteveHFC
11-11-2014, 03:39 PM
Agree with both posts. I don't want to or need to own part of hibs. I spend enough watching them but I'd reconsider if we were at deaths door.

:agree:

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 03:40 PM
Maybe they feel to offer a return to attract potential investors?

Although, at the moment STF doesn't take any money out of the club (noises off: Oh Yes He Does!) so it seems silly to buy him off with money which will cost up to 10% a year.

If we're attracting investors who are looking for a return then that's a whole different ball game.

That's not community or fan ownership.

7062
11-11-2014, 03:42 PM
I thought that was a pretty odd proposal too

Why would we then potentially be taking money out of the club that could be used by it? Even a capped amount is too much, every penny that comes into Hibs should be used by the club, not for paying anyone a dividend.

Am I right in thinking that there would only be a dividend if there was a profit made? And that even if there was a profit there doesn't need to be a dividend?

Just wondering how important the dividend proposal actually is.

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 03:47 PM
Am I right in thinking that there would only be a dividend if there was a profit made? And that even if there was a profit there doesn't need to be a dividend?

Just wondering how important the dividend proposal actually is.

Its obviously important enough that its something that they highlight.

Surely it would make more sense to write in something that prohibits a dividend being taken under any circumstances? That way, fans would be guaranteed any money pledged would be used by the club?

7062
11-11-2014, 04:04 PM
Its obviously important enough that its something that they highlight.

Surely it would make more sense to write in something that prohibits a dividend being taken under any circumstances? That way, fans would be guaranteed any money pledged would be used by the club?

I'm in no way shape or form a financial expert and maybe I'm getting mixed up with the club making an overall profit and the CIC making a profit (or if there's any difference?), but I guess the point I was trying to make is - if you need to have a profit before you pay a div, how likely is it that 1 would be paid? How often do hibs make a profit?

I agree that any pledges should be used by the club and I don't know if they would count towards any potential profit or be ring fenced.

I also agree on the zero dividend point, I was just wondering how important they are in the grand scheme of things.

I'll maybe just wait for a resident financial expert to get involved. :-)

marinello59
11-11-2014, 04:05 PM
I believe that what has been published so far is an outline to open negotiations with STF. The final details will have to be ironed out, but if it ticks the boxes for community and security that seem to be what STF is looking for, then things could turn out very well for the future of the club. I think keeping STF involved is a shrewd move, as that in itself will maintain the financial security of the venture. Negotiations such as these will not take place in a matter of days, so there's no point in looking for negatives at the present moment. The only downside I can see is the apparent statement that LD might not be secure in the future, which I find totally unjustifiable. I will wait and see what events unfold, but I'm a lot happier with this movement than HoH. Time will tell.

No shock there. Neil Wheelan has been gunning for her practically since she was appointed.

JimBHibees
11-11-2014, 04:12 PM
No shock there. Neil Wheelan has been gunning for her practically since she was appointed.

Appreciate he is part of this initiative however on what basis has he been gunning for her?

Andy74
11-11-2014, 04:16 PM
Appreciate he is part of this initiative however on what basis has he been gunning for her?

He has posted on her quite a bit on here.

For someone who's key strength is meant to be communication the paragraph about him is a bit of a mess.

s.a.m
11-11-2014, 04:17 PM
He has posted on her quite a bit on here.

For someone who's hey strength is meant to be communication the paragraph about him is a bit of a mess.

...ah. Hadn't made the connection. :aok:

marinello59
11-11-2014, 04:19 PM
Appreciate he is part of this initiative however on what basis has he been gunning for her?

He was very critical on here when he was pretending to be an ordinary fan with nothing to do with any surveys, takeovers etc. He also had a right go at her on here over the flak that SDS got for using the clubs logo. In fact he accused her of trying to suppress that survey yet she was encouraging fans to fill it in.
His views and he is entitled to hold them but he certainly doesn't rate her at all. That's why I said no surprise there.

SneakersO'Toole
11-11-2014, 04:39 PM
I think the people behind BuyHibs should at least be commended for actually getting the ball rolling and trying to force change. It looks like a reasonable amount of time and effort has gone into this so fair play from me on that front - its more than the majority of us have done.

I also understand other views that more information is required and I hope this will be forthcoming in the coming days/weeks. I do however find it quite staggering that all of sudden we have posts talking about our current ownership model being fine and "lets give it time to produce results". Last season you would have found hens teeth before reading such a post.

The current ownership model is stale, out-dated and has contributed to the embarrassing position we currently find ourselves in. Do not kid yourself that because we have had some decent results recently and have hopefully found a manager that actually knows what he is doing that the club is fine and dandy again - because it isn't.

Change is needed and long overdue. That doesn't mean we accept any old change but it does mean we should consider every proposal with an open mind and not just jump on the negetive bangwagon and succumb to denial that indeed STF's current ownership of the club is "actually okay".

Lets give the BuyHibs team the chance to persuade us that their bid is indeed credible and worth supporting.

marinello59
11-11-2014, 04:42 PM
I think the people behind BuyHibs should at least be commended for actually getting the ball rolling and trying to force change. It looks like a reasonable amount of time and effort has gone into this so fair play from me on that front - its more than the majority of us have done.

I also understand other views that more information is required and I hope this will be forthcoming in the coming days/weeks. I do however find it quite staggering that all of sudden we have posts talking about our current ownership model being fine and "lets give it time to produce results". Last season you would have found hens teeth before reading such a post.

The current ownership model is stale, out-dated and has contributed to the embarrassing position we currently find ourselves in. Do not kid yourself that because we have had some decent results recently and have hopefully found a manager that actually knows what he is doing that the club is fine and dandy again - because it isn't.

Change is needed and long overdue. That doesn't mean we accept any old change but it does mean we should consider every proposal with an open mind and not just jump on the negetive bangwagon and succumb to denial that indeed STF's current ownership of the club is "actually okay".

Lets give the BuyHibs team the chance to persuade us that their bid is indeed credible and worth supporting.

Your last comment is spot on.
I'm sure they'll welcome the robust questioning that posters here provide.

Lago
11-11-2014, 04:43 PM
Looks like the same old plans dressed up to look new with new unknown names, apart from Stanton, involved. Just never see it happening.

VivaHiberña
11-11-2014, 04:43 PM
I've read the website, but i'm still a bit unclear on what the fan-pledged money is for?

Is to purchase the club from STF? Will the DDs continue after that? Are the DDs to pay down the debt? Are they to continue indefinitely?

I think the idea has potential, but so far I don't think they have explained their strategy very well. For example, basing a business plan on 'engaging with those thousands of disconnected Hibbies' (or words to that effect) is fairly meaningless and aspirational. HOW do they propose to do that is the real question? And HOW do they propose to ensure on-pitch success, and how would that differ from now?

Like the point about being a club in the community and not a community club though.

I'm healthily sceptical, but hoping to be convinced. But I certainly wont be pledging just yet...

Sums up my position pretty well. I'm keeping an open mind and would maybe go as far as saying I want to be convinced. I'm sure as things go forward over the next couple of months we'll get more answers.

I'd like to know:

1. Is the money definitely for buying Farmer's share?

2. Would the proposed 51% include Petrie's share?

3. As well as taking control of the assets, would the CIC take on the liabilities (ie the debt)?

4. While banks have recently shown a good degree of leniency towards Scottish football clubs' debts, how do BuyHibs intend to deal with the debt if it isn't reduced or written off?

5a. Is the 10% dividend limit intended to attract investors looking to make a profit?

......5b, i. If yes, how do BuyHibs (BH) intend to attract this type of investor to Scottish football and is this really the type of shareholder we want?
......5b, ii. If no, why is there any intention to allow money to leave the club? Why not a 0% limit?

6. If we accept that Hibs are, outwith the OF and Romanov-era Hearts, one of the best funded clubs in Scotland and that Hibs' failings have been an issue of governance/management, ie human error, what gives us confidence that these issues will be avoided in future?

7. Would pledges start to be converted into DDs at the point at which STF agrees to sell?

8. How long would DDs be collected for? Until the 51% is bought? Until the debt is cleared? Indefinitely?

9. How would BH finance the purchase of a larger stake in the club in the future, as is suggested there may be an interest in should STF be willing to sell more?

10. How would future CEOs/chairmen etc be appointed?


(Apologies if I've asked anything daft)

Barney McGrew
11-11-2014, 04:47 PM
I'm sure they'll welcome the robust questioning that posters here provide.

:agree:

They've clearly got the username and access on here as they used it earlier to promote the launch, so they have the opportunity to answer any questions - for example like the well thought out ones above from Vivahiberna - at any time they want.

CropleyWasGod
11-11-2014, 04:54 PM
Sums up my position pretty well. I'm keeping an open mind and would maybe go as far as saying I want to be convinced. I'm sure as things go forward over the next couple of months we'll get more answers.

I'd like to know:



2. Would the proposed 51% include Petrie's share?



(Apologies if I've asked anything daft)

I'll knock that one out for you.

RP doesn't have any shares in the club. He has a 10% share in the holding company, which owns about 98% of the club.

tigerted
11-11-2014, 04:55 PM
:flag:I was able to attend today's meeting and announcement within the Hibs Club and a videolink of the meeting can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0MiJ7Xbb3APTjBVZ1VydEdhczQ/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0MiJ7Xbb3APTjBVZ1VydEdhczQ/view?usp=sharing)

This 25 minute video was intended for St. Patrick's Branch members only originally, but as this could turn out to be very important for all Hibernian Supporters, we are more than happy to share. The speakers in question were: Neil Wheelan, Pat Stanton, Paul Kane & Andrew Sibley?

More info at: www.buyhibs.org




:flag::hnet:

Mikey
11-11-2014, 04:58 PM
We'll merge this into the main thread at some point, but keep it separate for now so it's more noticeable.

Lmc2105
11-11-2014, 05:02 PM
:flag:I was able to attend today's meeting and announcement within the Hibs Club and a videolink of the meeting can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0MiJ7Xbb3APTjBVZ1VydEdhczQ/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0MiJ7Xbb3APTjBVZ1VydEdhczQ/view?usp=sharing)

This 25 minute video was intended for St. Patrick's Branch members only originally, but as this could turn out to be very important for all Hibernian Supporters, we are more than happy to share. The speakers in question were: Neil Wheelan, Pat Stanton, Paul Kane & Andrew Sibley?

More info at: www.buyhibs.org




:flag::hnet:



Thank you.

This was also recored by the campaign and will be on the website for all to view shortly.

scoopyboy
11-11-2014, 05:05 PM
He was very critical on here when he was pretending to be an ordinary fan with nothing to do with any surveys, takeovers etc. He also had a right go at her on here over the flak that SDS got for using the clubs logo. In fact he accused her of trying to suppress that survey yet she was encouraging fans to fill it in.
His views and he is entitled to hold them but he certainly doesn't rate her at all. That's why I said no surprise there.

What name does he post under?

jacomo
11-11-2014, 05:06 PM
What name does he post under?

I believe its a fairly unimaginative one. :wink:

jacomo
11-11-2014, 05:08 PM
He has posted on her quite a bit on here.

For someone who's hey strength is meant to be communication the paragraph about him is a bit of a mess.

I think the plural of medium is media. :wink:

H18S NX
11-11-2014, 05:10 PM
Was at press conference,Lane saying a lot of this was dependant on the fans buying into this. The had businessmen in place but they won't come forward till they see what the fan uptake is.....I think this goes both ways,the fans would probably like to know who the businessmen are before they part with their hard earned,i know would.

Hibernia&Alba
11-11-2014, 05:14 PM
I think the people behind BuyHibs should at least be commended for actually getting the ball rolling and trying to force change. It looks like a reasonable amount of time and effort has gone into this so fair play from me on that front - its more than the majority of us have done.

I also understand other views that more information is required and I hope this will be forthcoming in the coming days/weeks. I do however find it quite staggering that all of sudden we have posts talking about our current ownership model being fine and "lets give it time to produce results". Last season you would have found hens teeth before reading such a post.

The current ownership model is stale, out-dated and has contributed to the embarrassing position we currently find ourselves in. Do not kid yourself that because we have had some decent results recently and have hopefully found a manager that actually knows what he is doing that the club is fine and dandy again - because it isn't.

Change is needed and long overdue. That doesn't mean we accept any old change but it does mean we should consider every proposal with an open mind and not just jump on the negetive bangwagon and succumb to denial that indeed STF's current ownership of the club is "actually okay".

Lets give the BuyHibs team the chance to persuade us that their bid is indeed credible and worth supporting.

Fully agree.


Sums up my position pretty well. I'm keeping an open mind and would maybe go as far as saying I want to be convinced. I'm sure as things go forward over the next couple of months we'll get more answers.

I'd like to know:

1. Is the money definitely for buying Farmer's share?

2. Would the proposed 51% include Petrie's share?

3. As well as taking control of the assets, would the CIC take on the liabilities (ie the debt)?

4. While banks have recently shown a good degree of leniency towards Scottish football clubs' debts, how do BuyHibs intend to deal with the debt if it isn't reduced or written off?

5a. Is the 10% dividend limit intended to attract investors looking to make a profit?

......5b, i. If yes, how do BuyHibs (BH) intend to attract this type of investor to Scottish football and is this really the type of shareholder we want?
......5b, ii. If no, why is there any intention to allow money to leave the club? Why not a 0% limit?

6. If we accept that Hibs are, outwith the OF and Romanov-era Hearts, one of the best funded clubs in Scotland and that Hibs' failings have been an issue of governance/management, ie human error, what gives us confidence that these issues will be avoided in future?

7. Would pledges start to be converted into DDs at the point at which STF agrees to sell?

8. How long would DDs be collected for? Until the 51% is bought? Until the debt is cleared? Indefinitely?

9. How would BH finance the purchase of a larger stake in the club in the future, as is suggested there may be an interest in should STF be willing to sell more?

10. How would future CEOs/chairmen etc be appointed?


(Apologies if I've asked anything daft)

And some of the important questions that require answers.

Two excellent posts IMO that express both the desirability of change and the need to ensure the long term viability of 51% fan ownership. If this could be made to work, it could reinvigorate the club.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 05:16 PM
You can understand folks concerns and once we are filled in with more info I'm sure everyone will then know where they stand.

There will be some tough questions that will want answered no doubt and will be interesting to see how this pans out. I notice as well there are many still very happy with STF and Petrie at the helm and that's fair enough.

But if they can answer the tough questions prove it can work for the better of the club these people can maybe change their mind and look forward to having a new direction for the club to go in.

If it's all pie in the sky then nothing venturerd nothing gained! For me we still need a buy out as we are stale but only with the right people.


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VivaHiberña
11-11-2014, 05:19 PM
I'll knock that one out for you.

RP doesn't have any shares in the club. He has a 10% share in the holding company, which owns about 98% of the club.

Thanks. :aok:

Cameron1875
11-11-2014, 05:23 PM
How bad do things have to get for people to at least be open to the idea?

People scrambling about, complaining already.

davhibby
11-11-2014, 05:24 PM
From the Q&A section:-

54.Are you proposing that Leeann Dempster and George Craig stand down from
the Board? Not necessarily, although it must be recognised that wholesale change is
required and that the current board have continually failed us.



It's totally unfair to even associate LD & GC with the perceived failings of their predecessors.
This. It would be a good few steps in the wrong direction if they went and got rid of LD. It would just send us back to start all over again with a new structure etc. I'm open to see what they have to say but I'm not sure about it at the moment

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 05:31 PM
Thank you.

This was also recored by the campaign and will be on the website for all to view shortly.

Who are Neil Wheelan & Andrew Sibley?

What if any finncial backing do they have ?

It all sounds like a fans forum, but what have they got in terms of investment which they keep talking about ? :confused:

madhatter
11-11-2014, 05:36 PM
This. It would be a good few steps in the wrong direction if they went and got rid of LD. It would just send us back to start all over again with a new structure etc. I'm open to see what they have to say but I'm not sure about it at the moment

I might be being stupid here but surely the club decisions would then be decided in some part by fans? I can't think of many fans that want rid of Leeann Dempster, so why would it happen unless she walked? I consider them fully justified in saying that fan ownership has to come from out with the club - I trust Hibs fans more than board members simply to say due to shared experience and years of ineptitude. How do you start a fan ownership scheme at a club where fans notoriously distrust the board (and pay more in STs year on year but get delivered something befitting of the porcelain palace)? The fans start it themselves is the answer. I'd keep all staff members at Hibs but change a crucial 1 or 2...No point kicking out the positive forces; its the deadwood were after. They have done us a massive service but change is necessary.

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 05:37 PM
This 25 minute video was intended for St. Patrick's Branch members only originally,




Thanks for posting the Video.


I'm not meaning to start an inter-branch fight or anything, just a genuine question, but why St Pat's Branch? Is there some link between the takeover group and that particular Branch?

Keith_M
11-11-2014, 05:42 PM
He was very critical on here when he was pretending to be an ordinary fan with nothing to do with any surveys, takeovers etc. He also had a right go at her on here over the flak that SDS got for using the clubs logo. In fact he accused her of trying to suppress that survey yet she was encouraging fans to fill it in.
His views and he is entitled to hold them but he certainly doesn't rate her at all. That's why I said no surprise there.


If this turns out to be the case, then I'm out.

I want no part in vendettas and also want to give Dempster (and Craig) a chance to prove her worth.

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 05:42 PM
Who are Neil Wheelan & Andrew Sibley?

What if any finncial backing do they have ?

It all sounds like a fans forum, but what have they got in terms of investment which they keep talking about ? :confused:

What a load of bollocks - dissapointed in Pat taking part - my all time Hibs hero.

It is like me saying I would like Edinburgh castle for free for community purposes.

25 minutes of a waste of time.

Pretty Boy
11-11-2014, 05:45 PM
Thanks for posting the Video.


I'm not meaning to start an inter-branch fight or anything, just a genuine question, but why St Pat's Branch? Is there some link between the takeover group and that particular Branch?

I think all branches from the HSA were invited to the launch, could be wrong, and someone from St Pats has taken the initiative to film it.

marinello59
11-11-2014, 05:45 PM
If this turns out to be the case, then I'm out.

I want no part in vendettas and also want to give Dempster (and Craig) a chance to prove her worth.

Whoa. Please don't overplay what I said, I was simply making an observation. There are plenty of questions to be answered in the coming weeks and I'm sure this group will clarify things.

madhatter
11-11-2014, 05:47 PM
What a load of bollocks - dissapointed in Pat taking part - my all time Hibs hero.

It is like me saying I would like Edinburgh castle for free for community purposes.

25 minutes of a waste of time.

I don't see comparison - they are asking for fans to back the takeover. I didn't hear getting the club for free...

Just like Hearts and Ann Budge. Investors come in at end rather than start. Unless you have a close relationship with Abramovich
:wink:

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 05:50 PM
I don't see comparison - they are asking for fans to back the takeover. I didn't hear getting the club for free...

Just like Hearts and Ann Budge. Investors come in at end rather than start. Unless you have a close relationship with Abramovich
:wink:

So we have investors waiting in the wings - right :rolleyes:

offshorehibby
11-11-2014, 05:56 PM
Thanks for posting the Video.


I'm not meaning to start an inter-branch fight or anything, just a genuine question, but why St Pat's Branch? Is there some link between the takeover group and that particular Branch?

I received an email on Monday evening from the Southern branch secretary so it was an open invite. Two or three of the fans that were there happened to be St Pats.

Buyhibs could have filmed it and put it out on their web site, .net and the bounce.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 05:58 PM
What a load of bollocks - dissapointed in Pat taking part - my all time Hibs hero.

It is like me saying I would like Edinburgh castle for free for community purposes.

25 minutes of a waste of time.

Calm yourself down. No one asked you to watch it!! Fair dos if you don't think it's for you or the best for Hibs but others might.

Also how do you know we don't have folk willing to invest?? You think they would go to all the trouble in doing this to be left very embarrassed if there was no one there?!


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Thecat23
11-11-2014, 06:03 PM
Whoa. Please don't overplay what I said, I was simply making an observation. There are plenty of questions to be answered in the coming weeks and I'm sure this group will clarify things.

I have faith in LD and Craig and hope whoever takes control keep this set up. We seem to be slowly clicking into gear on the pitch and Stubbs is proving we can win playing good football.

These would be a couple of questions I would ask and want cleared up.


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Billy Whizz
11-11-2014, 06:03 PM
A bit coming up on STV news

KeithTheHibby
11-11-2014, 06:06 PM
Because we deserve to know as long suffering fans,

I'll rephrase the question for you.

Have they something to hide that they're not coming out in the open?

My gut feeling to my own question is no but see no reason for the smokescreen.

I will contribute of that I'm certain, but not until I have a full picture.


As long suffering fans we should hear a damn site more from our owner but that will never happen.

Don't quote me on this but when the foundation of hearts arrived on the scene was there not similiarities? I know budge was the investor however this was never confirmed until the yams were as good as out of administration?

I don't want to be one of those fans who would take anyone over STF however can we not trust guys like Pat Stanton and Paul Kane? These guys are putting their reputation on the line by being part of this group and would imagine they know a lot more than they are able to say at the moment. Having these guys part of if gives me the confidence that this can be a success.

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 06:07 PM
Calm yourself down. No one asked you to watch it!! Fair dos if you don't think it's for you or the best for Hibs but others might.

Also how do you know we don't have folk willing to invest?? You think they would go to all the trouble in doing this to be left very embarrassed if there was no one there?!


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IMHO it is not best for Hibs- I dont believe for a second they have "fresh investment|", and I'd be intrested to see how many fans sign up to monthly payments - sorry, a hard mesage but I believe the long term financial stability of the club rests with STF.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 06:10 PM
IMHO it is not best for Hibs- I dont believe for a second they have "fresh investment|", and I'd be intrested to see how many fans sign up to monthly payments - sorry, a hard mesage but I believe the long term financial stability of the club rests with STF.

That's fair enough bud, but just thought you were harsh on the guys who are trying to fund a bid. As you don't know all the facts wouldn't it be better to wait and see how it pans out and that if there is buyers there we get to know them and see what they have to say?

What would happen if STF took a bad turn and couldn't run Hibs? Where next? Also do you think he is doing a good job right now if so in what way? Not arguing here would genuinely like to know what you think he does someone else can't.


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Keith_M
11-11-2014, 06:15 PM
I think all branches from the HSA were invited to the launch, could be wrong, and someone from St Pats has taken the initiative to film it.


I received an email on Monday evening from the Southern branch secretary so it was an open invite. Two or three of the fans that were there happened to be St Pats.

Buyhibs could have filmed it and put it out on their web site, .net and the bounce.


Cheers.

:aok:

The Green Goblin
11-11-2014, 06:15 PM
As long suffering fans we should hear a damn site more from our owner but that will never happen.

Don't quote me on this but when the foundation of hearts arrived on the scene was there not similiarities? I know budge was the investor however this was never confirmed until the yams were as good as out of administration?

I don't want to be one of those fans who would take anyone over STF however can we not trust guys like Pat Stanton and Paul Kane? These guys are putting their reputation on the line by being part of this group and would imagine they know a lot more than they are able to say at the moment. Having these guys part of if gives me the confidence that this can be a success.

It's the money involved and long term/future security of the club that worries me. These guys can be absolute diamonds, but that won't count for anything if the club is left financially vulnerable.

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 06:18 PM
That's fair enough bud, but just thought you were harsh on the guys who are trying to fund a bid. As you don't know all the facts wouldn't it be better to wait and see how it pans out and that if there is buyers there we get to know them and see what they have to say?

What would happen if STF took a bad turn and couldn't run Hibs? Where next? Also do you think he is doing a good job right now if so in what way? Not arguing here would genuinely like to know what you think he does someone else can't.


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He is not a very rich business man for nothing.

Succession plans will be in place - agreed it would be helpful to know these, but he is no fool.

Based on what I've seen so far fron alternative bidders, I'd give us five years - who is picking up the £6-8 million debt ?

madhatter
11-11-2014, 06:20 PM
So we have investors waiting in the wings - right :rolleyes:

Would Hearts fans not have thought the same or did they all know the angelic Budge personally and how much money she had? And knew her intentions when Foundation of Hearts started? I think the answer to those are, no they did not. To say that there is nobody interested in a football club that for its size has above and beyond the assets of others accompanied by manageable debt is simply folly. Now whether interest will be proceeded by action is another story.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
11-11-2014, 06:23 PM
Its obviously important enough that its something that they highlight.

Surely it would make more sense to write in something that prohibits a dividend being taken under any circumstances? That way, fans would be guaranteed any money pledged would be used by the club?

I presumed it to mean that any big investors in the other 25 / 49 per cent could get a dividend of 10% of any profits made - which seems fair enough to me.

Thecat23
11-11-2014, 06:24 PM
As I said in an earlier post, he didn't become a millionaire being stupid. He'll know exactly what he wants and if it's a good deal he'd prob take it.

I'd like to think he's also sell to someone who is level headed and would steer Hibs in a new direction. It's sometimes not all about money, it's the way of thinking and bringing in the right people.

If it falls flat then we are were we are. If they can answer questions put to them with proof then I'd be more than happy to listen and not write them off.

Not saying you are but some seem to be taking a tone of looking down on these people because they may not be top notch businessmen.

All I want is for Hibs to have a safe secure future and one that has some success. Not a boring bottom six team which is what we have been for many years and now we aren't even that.

So as it stands I'm happy to hear them out before making my mind up that we are better of where we are. Remember Hibs do have a big debt and I doubt the accounts will be pleasing on the eye!!


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marinello59
11-11-2014, 06:25 PM
Would Hearts fans not have thought the same or did they all know the angelic Budge personally and how much money she had? And knew her intentions when Foundation of Hearts started? I think the answer to those are, no they did not. To say that there is nobody interested in a football club that for its size has above and beyond the assets of others accompanied by manageable debt is simply folly. Now whether interest will be proceeded by action is another story.

Hearts fans had nowhere else to go. It was pay in or the club died. We are nowhere near that situation are we?
Stuff having that shower held up as role models.

DarlingtonHibee
11-11-2014, 06:26 PM
Would Hearts fans not have thought the same or did they all know the angelic Budge personally and how much money she had? And knew her intentions when Foundation of Hearts started? I think the answer to those are, no they did not. To say that there is nobody interested in a football club that for its size has above and beyond the assets of others accompanied by manageable debt is simply folly. Now whether interest will be proceeded by action is another story.

The assets are based on property - would we want to sell these ?

I haven't seen people queing up to invest in Hibs - still one journalist (don't know who) is doing well to keep it on the front page of the Scotsman

WhileTheChief..
11-11-2014, 06:31 PM
Total non starter. Will be lucky to get close to 1000 folk that will pledge.

madhatter
11-11-2014, 06:32 PM
Hearts fans had nowhere else to go. It was pay in or the club died. We are nowhere near that situation are we?
Stuff having that shower held up as role models.

Not saying for them to be role models in any way. Merely saying that none of us can know if there is any investors until it is revealed ala Hearts. We need more information but let's be honest STF is not immortal and if succession planning involves another non-football interested person then I believe future is bleak. I still attend games but decline in attendances married with expectations generally = more debt. A vicious cycle of failure and declining will result in a reconstitution of us being a bottom six club or go further into debt. We need to reenergise fans, is this the way to do it...who knows. Hopefully find out shortly.

WhileTheChief..
11-11-2014, 06:37 PM
Stuff having that shower held up as role models.

Exactly. We had a 1000 page thread ripping them for their plans and now we want to follow suit?? Total madness.

Some folk should go back and have a read!

madhatter
11-11-2014, 06:38 PM
The assets are based on property - would we want to sell these ?

I haven't seen people queing up to invest in Hibs - still one journalist (don't know who) is doing well to keep it on the front page of the Scotsman

Assets in football have other values - if you can bring relative success to a club without investing massive amount in infrastructure then the asset saved you money. It didn't make you any necessarily but success could bring you European nights, increased attendances, more lucatrive sponsorships which when kept relative to the club can bring income. When has a propective owner of a football club been weighing up the profit opportunities? How much have Man City owners spent?

There is never a queue of investors. If you are going to buy anything like this you wait until market is favourable and that could come with fan backing and STF wanting to exit. Who knows...we don't even know STFs price yet.