The 'Butcher's Track Record' Thread

[One Day Soon]

I'd like to avoid simple expressions of anger on this thread. I'm trying to understand what Butcher's record in management has been outside of Hibs.

In particular I'm interested in his time at ICT where he seems to have turned a relegated club (albeit one that he got relegated) into one that was tough and competitive, playing at the higher levels and playing proper passing football.

1. Is that correct?
2. How did he manage it?
3. If that is correct how do we explain his time at Hibs?
4. Why wouldn't the ICT template be the perfect model - and Butcher now the perfect manager - to rebuild us from the ground up so that we get promoted and compete at the top of the SPL again?

I am not saying that what I have described above is what I believe or that it is the way forward. I am just trying to understand why it wouldn't be the way forward.

So any analysis people can offer would be great, particularly if you can evidence the case for or against him. In other words please show your workings. You may use dividers - but not in each other.

[cleanyman]

He's not a very good manager. I was surprised at how popular a choice he seemed to be amongst the Hibs support.

No pressure at ICT and sometimes, just like players, it works for them at particular clubs. It worked for him at ICT, it never worked for him elsewhere.

Nevermind his terrible record in England, look at his record in Scotland. Two relegations and a third with Motherwell if it wasn't for Falkirk's horrendous stadium.

[One Day Soon]

He's not a very good manager. I was surprised at how popular a choice he seemed to be amongst the Hibs support.

No pressure at ICT and sometimes, just like players, it works for them at particular clubs. It worked for him at ICT, it never worked for him elsewhere.

Nevermind his terrible record in England, look at his record in Scotland. Two relegations and a third with Motherwell if it wasn't for Falkirk's horrendous stadium.

That doesn't do it though. Basically you are trying to explain away the ICT revival, quality of play, quality of player and spirit with 'he wasn't under pressure and he got lucky'. There are a lot of clubs where those factors could apply - but they don't. Something else must have been at work.

[cleanyman]

That doesn't do it though. Basically you are trying to explain away the ICT revival, quality of play, quality of player and spirit with 'he wasn't under pressure and he got lucky'. There are a lot of clubs where those factors could apply - but they don't. Something else must have been at work.

Aye it does. Butcher is a sassij. You mention the ICT revival, ICT got promoted on the back of Dundee blowing a 12 point lead, imploding and sacking their manager.

He had one good season at ICT. ICT has been his only successful club. In 20 years of management that's horrendous.

Sacked at Brentford after 6 months, sacked at Sydney after 5, sacked at Ipswich and Sunderland.

Relegated ICT and his just relegated one of Scotland's biggest clubs.

Good one Butcher. Now get out.

[One Day Soon]

Aye it does. Butcher is a sassij. You mention the ICT revival, ICT got promoted on the back of Dundee blowing a 12 point lead, imploding and sacking their manager.

He had one good season at ICT. ICT has been his only successful club. In 20 years of management that's horrendous.

Sacked at Brentford after 6 months, sacked at Sydney after 5, sacked at Ipswich and Sunderland.

Relegated ICT and his just relegated one of Scotland's biggest clubs.

Good one Butcher. Now get out.


I understand all the non ICT stuff but that isn't the question I posed.

As to Dundee blowing it, okay that is a contributory factor but ICT still needed to keep winning and could only do what they could do. He got them promoted and playing good football pretty competitively. So how did he do that?

[sidjames]

It's undoubtedly an amazingly poor record. Please go. Refund the wages you took. Apologise for standing by and pretending to know what you were doing. What in fact were you doing? The number of chances you, your assistants and the team had to avoid relagation. How can that be achieved without having the charge of gross dereliction of duty served. Over 33,000 fans, the vast majority supporting our club turned up for the final 2 games. No goals. Not one. And one would have saved us. Please hang your head in shame, accept you are wholly culpable. It's impossible to stay. You've recieved plenty money already for leading this charge of the light brigade. You failed. Again.

[Stevie Reid]

I'd like to avoid simple expressions of anger on this thread. I'm trying to understand what Butcher's record in management has been outside of Hibs.

In particular I'm interested in his time at ICT where he seems to have turned a relegated club (albeit one that he got relegated) into one that was tough and competitive, playing at the higher levels and playing proper passing football.

1. Is that correct?
2. How did he manage it?
3. If that is correct how do we explain his time at Hibs?
4. Why wouldn't the ICT template be the perfect model - and Butcher now the perfect manager - to rebuild us from the ground up so that we get promoted and compete at the top of the SPL again?

I am not saying that what I have described above is what I believe or that it is the way forward. I am just trying to understand why it wouldn't be the way forward.

So any analysis people can offer would be great, particularly if you can evidence the case for or against him. In other words please show your workings. You may use dividers - but not in each other.

Here's his record so far: -



TEAM
FROM
TO
GAMES
WON
DRAWN
LOST


Hibernian (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1227)
12 Nov, 2013
Present
29
6
8
15


Inverness CT (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=482)
27 Jan, 2009
12 Nov, 2013
209
87
58
64


Brentford (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=378)
07 May, 2007
11 Dec, 2007
23
5
5
13


Motherwell (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1734)
24 Apr, 2002
17 May, 2006
175
60
37
78


Sunderland (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2493)
05 Feb, 1993
26 Nov, 1993
43
13
8
22


Coventry (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=621)
14 Nov, 1990
06 Jan, 1992
60
20
14
26


In his first season at Motherwell, they finished bottom, but weren't relegated. His record at the end of that season was: -

P 38 W 7 D 7 L 24 Points 28

The following season they finished 6th: -

P 38 W 12 D 10 L 16 Points 46

And 6th again in 2004-05: -

P 38 W 13 D 9 L 16 Points 48

And in his last season there they finished 8th: -

P 38 W 13 D 10 L 15 Points 49

He took over ICT in January 2009 when they were two points adrift at the bottom the league. On the last day of the season they were 11th, two points clear of Yogi's Falkirk, but lost at home to them and went down on goal difference. Yogi then moved to us. (A grand irony here is that Yogi got Falkirk out of the 1st division and led them to 10th, 7th, 7th and 10th in four years - this was dismissed by many on here, yet a few years later Butcher was heralded by many for getting ICT back up after he relegated them, then consolidating in similar fashion to Yogi. Strange one)

Anyway, you can view their 1st Division results here - apparently they were 15 points behind in January, but managed to turn it around: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Inverness_Caledonian_Thistle_F.C._ season

Since they got back up: -

[B]2010-11

7th P 38 W 13 D 11 L 14 Points 53

2011-12

10th P 38 W 10 D 9 L 19 Points 39

2012-13

4th P 38 W 13 D 15 L 10 Points 54

They finished with 3 more points than us last season. Another irony here is that in terms of points totals, Fenlon improved us from 2011-12 to 2012-13 (33 - 51 points 18 point gain) more than Butcher improved ICT (39 - 54 points 15 point gain).

[Stevie Reid]

As an aside, Butcher signed Brian Kerr twice.

[Winston Ingram]

He has an utterly abysmal managerial record.

The level of due diligence done by the board on this one was appalling and is typical of the lack of care they have shown in recent years:agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

A horrendous manager, who's the media darling just because he's an ex the rangers player and ex England captain.

His record as a manager should never have got him anywhere near the job at Hibs.

His one good season i put purely down to luck, of course the bad results and relegations he's put all the other clubs through could be put down to bad luck eh.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd like to avoid simple expressions of anger on this thread. I'm trying to understand what Butcher's record in management has been outside of Hibs.

In particular I'm interested in his time at ICT where he seems to have turned a relegated club (albeit one that he got relegated) into one that was tough and competitive, playing at the higher levels and playing proper passing football.

1. Is that correct?
2. How did he manage it?
3. If that is correct how do we explain his time at Hibs?
4. Why wouldn't the ICT template be the perfect model - and Butcher now the perfect manager - to rebuild us from the ground up so that we get promoted and compete at the top of the SPL again?

I am not saying that what I have described above is what I believe or that it is the way forward. I am just trying to understand why it wouldn't be the way forward.

So any analysis people can offer would be great, particularly if you can evidence the case for or against him. In other words please show your workings. You may use dividers - but not in each other.

He certainly seems to be a slow starter. Every managerial job he's had he's either been relegated* (Well, ICT, Hibs) or sacked (Sunderland, Coventry, Brentford, Sydney) in just over a year or less. So you could say that for point 3 he's just following his usual pattern.

I suppose if you want to be optimistic you can say that at ICT and Well things picked up markedly thereafter.



* Well finished bottom but saved by stupid SPL rule.

[Dashing Bob S]

Butcher and Malpas both had crap managerial records individually, but they were very candid (or clever) in openly admitting this, and selling themselves on their complimentary ability as a duo. This was a smart move as it basically dismissed all the pre-ICT serial failure on Butcher's CV.

Now we have to decide whether a) ICT was a genuine sea-change, or b) they just lucked out in a no-pressure job, and Petrie was taken for a mug again.

The evidence for b) is, at the moment, pretty overwhelming.

[Stevie Reid]

To manage to lead all three of the SPL teams he has managed into bottom place and/or relegation places in each of his first seasons with them, and yet still be heralded by some of the media as a good manager, is a feat in itself.

The stuff from down South (Brentford in particular) is poor, and he obviously isn't remembered fondly in Australia.

I remember one of the papers announced him as Hearts next manager in 2008, and I was delighted as he had a terrible record - after the good things he did at ICT I was then happy he didn't end up there. I'm back to wishing him on Hearts again now, though.

[Sergio sledge]

Aye it does. Butcher is a sassij. You mention the ICT revival, ICT got promoted on the back of Dundee blowing a 12 point lead, imploding and sacking their manager.

He had one good season at ICT. ICT has been his only successful club. In 20 years of management that's horrendous.

Sacked at Brentford after 6 months, sacked at Sydney after 5, sacked at Ipswich and Sunderland.

Relegated ICT and his just relegated one of Scotland's biggest clubs.

Good one Butcher. Now get out.

For the record I was never a Butcher fan and posted as such on a number of occasions on here that I didn't think he was the right man for the job, I still don't think he is.

However, you do him a bit of a disservice when dismissing his ICT record. He's regarded as pretty much their best manager and many would take him back. In the first division, Dundee may have squandered a 15 point lead (at one point, although ICT had 2 games in hand) but ICT still went unbeaten in their last 21 games, including 9 wins in a row to finish the season off. An SPL record since promotion of 7th, 10th and 4th is very good for ICT and they were 2nd when he left them for us, so well on their way to another good finish. He had more than one good season there.

[Winston Ingram]

To manage to lead all three of the SPL teams he has managed into bottom place and/or relegation places in each of his first seasons with them, and yet still be heralded by some of the media as a good manager, is a feat in itself.

The stuff from down South (Brentford in particular) is poor, and he obviously isn't remembered fondly in Australia.

I remember one of the papers announced him as Hearts next manager in 2008, and I was delighted as he had a terrible record - after the good things he did at ICT I was then happy he didn't end up there. I'm back to wishing him on Hearts again now, though.

He's almost untouchable by the media. He appears to be a media darling. I think i've only seen Graham Spiers and Michael Stewart question his abilities.

[Paisley Hibby]

I understand all the non ICT stuff but that isn't the question I posed.

As to Dundee blowing it, okay that is a contributory factor but ICT still needed to keep winning and could only do what they could do. He got them promoted and playing good football pretty competitively. So how did he do that?

You're asking some very good questions. I wonder if maybe we should look at this the other way round. How is it that ICT can get the best out of managers who subsequently go on to be pretty gash elsewhere - ie Butcher, Steve Paterson, John Robertson?

[ekhibee]

Aye it does. Butcher is a sassij. You mention the ICT revival, ICT got promoted on the back of Dundee blowing a 12 point lead, imploding and sacking their manager.

He had one good season at ICT. ICT has been his only successful club. In 20 years of management that's horrendous.

Sacked at Brentford after 6 months, sacked at Sydney after 5, sacked at Ipswich and Sunderland.

Relegated ICT and his just relegated one of Scotland's biggest clubs.

Good one Butcher. Now get out.
Nonsense. At least get your facts right. He was never manager of Ipswich for a start, he saved Sunderland from relegation (something other managers seem to have to do frequently there) then was sacked virtually at the start of the next season. In Scotland there was Motherwell:
In October 2001, he became assistant to Eric Black at Motherwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherwell_F.C.) in the Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League), taking over from Black a year later as the club was forced to deal with severe financial difficulties, which have since largely abated and Butcher has been praised by the club's supporters and media for his performance under those difficult circumstances. Motherwell reached the 2005 Scottish League Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) final, where his old team Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) defeated them 5–1.And by the way, I live in Lanarkshire amongst quite a few Motherwell supporters and they're virtually, to a man, in agreement with this. As far as his English managerial record is concerned, there's loads of managers up here, successful ones, who haven't cut it down south, such as Walter Smith, Derek McInnes, Billy Davies etc. I'm only interested in his record with Scottish clubs in any case, and unlike you I think it's not bad at all, until he came to us.

[NAE NOOKIE]

His overall record makes for pretty poor reading. On the back of his recent record at ICT I was happy enough to see him appointed and did feel that if given time he could turn Hibs around.

That feeling has all but evaporated in light of his woeful attempt to halt our headlong slide to oblivion .... his players or not, failure to get the points we needed with what he had is a disgrace ..... at 90% of the clubs in the UK he would have been joining the 15 he binned on Monday morning.

[cleanyman]

Nonsense. At least get your facts right. He was never manager of Ipswich for a start, he saved Sunderland from relegation (something other managers seem to have to do frequently there) then was sacked virtually at the start of the next season. In Scotland there was Motherwell:
In October 2001, he became assistant to Eric Black at Motherwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherwell_F.C.) in the Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League), taking over from Black a year later as the club was forced to deal with severe financial difficulties, which have since largely abated and Butcher has been praised by the club's supporters and media for his performance under those difficult circumstances. Motherwell reached the 2005 Scottish League Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) final, where his old team Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) defeated them 5–1.And by the way, I live in Lanarkshire amongst quite a few Motherwell supporters and they're virtually, to a man, in agreement with this. As far as his English managerial record is concerned, there's loads of managers up here, successful ones, who haven't cut it down south, such as Walter Smith, Derek McInnes, Billy Davies etc. I'm only interested in his record with Scottish clubs in any case, and unlike you I think it's not bad at all, until he came to us.

doesn't matter what you say either way. The man Is a dumpling and should never have got the Hibs job.

oh, and well done for getting to a cup final and getting pumped 5-1. Least we have something in common

[Pete]

oh, and well done for getting to a cup final and getting pumped 5-1. Least we have something in common

Just do one.

[cleanyman]

Just do one.

we're all gutted at what has happened but it was inevitable.

We have to get butcher out the door so we can properly rebuild.

Oh, and Petrie as well.

[ekhibee]

A horrendous manager, who's the media darling just because he's an ex the rangers player and ex England captain.

His record as a manager should never have got him anywhere near the job at Hibs.

His one good season i put purely down to luck, of course the bad results and relegations he's put all the other clubs through could be put down to bad luck eh.
So if he'd stayed at ICT, with all the players HE'D brought to the club, then it would have been two good seasons, both down to luck? Hardly. I was never in favour of Hughes, Pattalainen, Calderwood or Fenlon as being Hibs manager, but I haven't got stuck in to them anything like the way some people on this board have got stuck into Butcher well before we were relegated, never mind after it. And I'm only interested in his managerial record in Scotland, unless you think Walter Smith, Derek McInnes and Billy Davies are all **** managers as well, not to mention other managers that haven't cut it down south. Loads of people on here wanted McInnes as our manager a few seasons back, and Davies was constantly mentioned too. As far as Motherwell are concerned, maybe you should go on their forum and ask them what they thought of Butcher as a manager. It's a hell of a lot different from how some of the people on here think of him. They were virtually bankrupt and he still managed to get them to the league cup final. His record in Scotland as a manager wasn't that bad at all until he came to Hibs. I know that whatever I say you'll still say he's ****, I just wanted you to know that I disagree with you.

[Captain Trips]

20 years a manager and the positive talk for Butcher is one season at ICT. Says it all.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Here's his record so far: -



TEAM
FROM
TO
GAMES
WON
DRAWN
LOST


Hibernian (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1227)
12 Nov, 2013
Present
29
6
8
15


Inverness CT (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=482)
27 Jan, 2009
12 Nov, 2013
209
87
58
64


Brentford (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=378)
07 May, 2007
11 Dec, 2007
23
5
5
13


Motherwell (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=1734)
24 Apr, 2002
17 May, 2006
175
60
37
78


Sunderland (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2493)
05 Feb, 1993
26 Nov, 1993
43
13
8
22


Coventry (http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=621)
14 Nov, 1990
06 Jan, 1992
60
20
14
26


In his first season at Motherwell, they finished bottom, but weren't relegated. His record at the end of that season was: -

P 38 W 7 D 7 L 24 Points 28

The following season they finished 6th: -

P 38 W 12 D 10 L 16 Points 46

And 6th again in 2004-05: -

P 38 W 13 D 9 L 16 Points 48

And in his last season there they finished 8th: -

P 38 W 13 D 10 L 15 Points 49

He took over ICT in January 2009 when they were two points adrift at the bottom the league. On the last day of the season they were 11th, two points clear of Yogi's Falkirk, but lost at home to them and went down on goal difference. Yogi then moved to us. (A grand irony here is that Yogi got Falkirk out of the 1st division and led them to 10th, 7th, 7th and 10th in four years - this was dismissed by many on here, yet a few years later Butcher was heralded by many for getting ICT back up after he relegated them, then consolidating in similar fashion to Yogi. Strange one)

Anyway, you can view their 1st Division results here - apparently they were 15 points behind in January, but managed to turn it around: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Inverness_Caledonian_Thistle_F.C._ season

Since they got back up: -

[B]2010-11

7th P 38 W 13 D 11 L 14 Points 53

2011-12

10th P 38 W 10 D 9 L 19 Points 39

2012-13

4th P 38 W 13 D 15 L 10 Points 54

They finished with 3 more points than us last season. Another irony here is that in terms of points totals, Fenlon improved us from 2011-12 to 2012-13 (33 - 51 points 18 point gain) more than Butcher improved ICT (39 - 54 points 15 point gain).


Some very good statistical evidence here, Stevie. I actually thought his Motherwell record was better than that, and I was enthusiastic upon his appointment, but I have to admit my confidence was misplaced and Butcher has been a disaster. I can't think of another manager who could have produced a worse sequence of results: no win since February in such a poor league is lamentable. As he lacks the sense of honour to resign following relegation, he should be sacked IMO. Such a level of failure is intolerable.

[blackpoolhibs]

So if he'd stayed at ICT, with all the players HE'D brought to the club, then it would have been two good seasons, both down to luck? Hardly. I was never in favour of Hughes, Pattalainen, Calderwood or Fenlon as being Hibs manager, but I haven't got stuck in to them anything like the way some people on this board have got stuck into Butcher well before we were relegated, never mind after it. And I'm only interested in his managerial record in Scotland, unless you think Walter Smith, Derek McInnes and Billy Davies are all **** managers as well, not to mention other managers that haven't cut it down south. Loads of people on here wanted McInnes as our manager a few seasons back, and Davies was constantly mentioned too. As far as Motherwell are concerned, maybe you should go on their forum and ask them what they thought of Butcher as a manager. It's a hell of a lot different from how some of the people on here think of him. They were virtually bankrupt and he still managed to get them to the league cup final. His record in Scotland as a manager wasn't that bad at all until he came to Hibs. I know that whatever I say you'll still say he's ****, I just wanted you to know that I disagree with you.

You may be only interested in part of his management history, i will judge him on what he's done at Hibs. And i will then put it beside what he's done over the course of his whole management career to see how it matches. And over the course of his career, he's done jack sheite except for 18 months.

You just pick out the good bits if thats what you want, i wont.

[emerald green]

So if he'd stayed at ICT, with all the players HE'D brought to the club, then it would have been two good seasons, both down to luck? Hardly. I was never in favour of Hughes, Pattalainen, Calderwood or Fenlon as being Hibs manager, but I haven't got stuck in to them anything like the way some people on this board have got stuck into Butcher well before we were relegated, never mind after it. And I'm only interested in his managerial record in Scotland, unless you think Walter Smith, Derek McInnes and Billy Davies are all **** managers as well, not to mention other managers that haven't cut it down south. Loads of people on here wanted McInnes as our manager a few seasons back, and Davies was constantly mentioned too. As far as Motherwell are concerned, maybe you should go on their forum and ask them what they thought of Butcher as a manager. It's a hell of a lot different from how some of the people on here think of him. They were virtually bankrupt and he still managed to get them to the league cup final. His record in Scotland as a manager wasn't that bad at all until he came to Hibs. I know that whatever I say you'll still say he's ****, I just wanted you to know that I disagree with you.

What has Butcher actually won? Nothing, apart from bring ICT back up from a diddy league after he took them down. Now he's taken Hibs down, in the most humiliating manner for a club of our stature and comparative resources. Certainly compared to Hamilton Accies FFS, and I mean no disrespect to Accies here.

The players are partly responsible for that too of course. I believe some of their performances were a disgrace to the Hibs jersey. They were either not giving 100% for Butcher because they did not care or respect him & Malpas as they knew they were getting binned anyway at the end of the season (Butcher's mis-management).

I don't know who Motherwell played to get to that League Cup final, but to be honest you only need to win a handful of games and get an easy draw to achieve that. They got horsed 5-1 in that final of course.

I just get the impression that Butcher has got "the gift of the gab". He talks a good game. How good a coach is he though? If what I've witnessed during his time in charge of Hibs is anything to go by, he is absolutely horrendous. That style :faf: of football is from the Sunday pub leagues. I am very worried that it appears he will continue as Hibs manager.

I hope I'm wrong, and he has Hibs playing attractive, passing, and winning football next season. I won't be holding my breath though.

[sidjames]

He is useless. At the moment polishing his brass neck, looking forward to a nice summer. Perhaps South America? Totally safe in the knowledge that when he leaves he will have pocketed another nice sum to finance a well heeled retirement in a place nowhere near ER. Nice.

[ekhibee]

You may be only interested in part of his management history, i will judge him on what he's done at Hibs. And i will then put it beside what he's done over the course of his whole management career to see how it matches. And over the course of his career, he's done jack sheite except for 18 months.

You just pick out the good bits if thats what you want, i wont.
Well you've been going on about the bad bits a hell of a lot longer than anything I've said about it. I'll wait to see how he gets on with a team of his own players. If he's still **** then of course I'll agree with you, but not till then.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Well you've been going on about the bad bits a hell of a lot longer than anything I've said about it. I'll wait to see how he gets on with a team of his own players. If he's still **** then of course I'll agree with you, but not till then.

But he's just done the seemingly impossible by relegating us from the poorest SPL I can remember. Do you trust Butcher to put re-build the team from the ashes of his own failure? I think we have to cut our losses. No manager should be allowed to stay in post having relegated us.

[KWJ]

As an aside, Butcher signed Brian Kerr twice.

:greengrin

That is an alarming and scary fact.

His time with Motherwell was during their administration period so I reckon he did well there.

And his success with ICT had been unprecedented for them.

[ekhibee]

What has Butcher actually won? Nothing, apart from bring ICT back up from a diddy league after he took them down. Now he's taken Hibs down, in the most humiliating manner for a club of our stature and comparative resources. Certainly compared to Hamilton Accies FFS, and I mean no disrespect to Accies here.

The players are partly responsible for that too of course. I believe some of their performances were a disgrace to the Hibs jersey. They were either not giving 100% for Butcher because they did not care or respect him & Malpas as they knew they were getting binned anyway at the end of the season (Butcher's mis-management).

I don't know who Motherwell played to get to that League Cup final, but to be honest you only need to win a handful of games and get an easy draw to achieve that. They got horsed 5-1 in that final of course.

I just get the impression that Butcher has got "the gift of the gab". He talks a good game. How good a coach is he though? If what I've witnessed during his time in charge of Hibs is anything to go by, he is absolutely horrendous. That style :faf: of football is from the Sunday pub leagues. I am very worried that it appears he will continue as Hibs manager.

I hope I'm wrong, and he has Hibs playing attractive, passing, and winning football next season. I won't be holding my breath though.

Well for the record Motherwell beat Morton (0-3), ICT (1-3), Livingston (0-5) and Hearts (2-3 a.e.t) to get to the league cup final that year. ICT and Livingston were both in the SPL that year so they beat 3 SPL teams to get to the final where they were horsed by Rangers. I agree with you though, the players have to take a lot of responsibility for this as well. It might well be that after the changes to the personnel on the pitch there is no improvement, in which case he should obviously be sacked as soon as possible, but until then I'll hang on and see what he can produce. I didn't watch ICT all the time when he was in charge there but it certainly wasn't the same style as what we were playing recently, they didn't seem to play 'hoofball' when I saw them at any time, but maybe others know better about that. And if the manager, whether it's Butcher or someone else isn't given money to spend on the team I'll not only cancel my season ticket I'll just never go back as long as Petrie is at the club.

[blackpoolhibs]

Well you've been going on about the bad bits a hell of a lot longer than anything I've said about it. I'll wait to see how he gets on with a team of his own players. If he's still **** then of course I'll agree with you, but not till then.

Ok let me say this then, the team he built at ICT was terrific management, he was just unlucky for the other 18 and a half years.

[sidjames]

Ok let me say this then, the team he built at ICT was terrific management, he was just unlucky for the other 18 and a half years.

I suppose a complete idiot gets lucky once in a while.

[TornadoHibby]

Nonsense. At least get your facts right. He was never manager of Ipswich for a start, he saved Sunderland from relegation (something other managers seem to have to do frequently there) then was sacked virtually at the start of the next season. In Scotland there was Motherwell:
In October 2001, he became assistant to Eric Black at Motherwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherwell_F.C.) in the Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League), taking over from Black a year later as the club was forced to deal with severe financial difficulties, which have since largely abated and Butcher has been praised by the club's supporters and media for his performance under those difficult circumstances. Motherwell reached the 2005 Scottish League Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) final, where his old team Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) defeated them 5–1.And by the way, I live in Lanarkshire amongst quite a few Motherwell supporters and they're virtually, to a man, in agreement with this. As far as his English managerial record is concerned, there's loads of managers up here, successful ones, who haven't cut it down south, such as Walter Smith, Derek McInnes, Billy Davies etc. I'm only interested in his record with Scottish clubs in any case, and unlike you I think it's not bad at all, until he came to us.

Well good for you that you think he's the man for Hibs!

I go on what I see in front of me at times like this and Butcher & Malpas have over their time at Hibs taken us from a poor team that won games fairly regularly to a very poor one playing terrible hoofball which couldn't even win even 20% of its games over their period in charge!

They need to leave Hibs and go do their stuff somewhere else allowing the appointment of a quality managing team who can restore Hibs to a team that can play entertaining skilful & organised football winning most of our games!

Otherwise many fans will not return next season or in future years as their style of football is poor, lacks any entertainment value for the fans and doesn't win matches or points!!!!

[ekhibee]

Well good for you that you think he's the man for Hibs!

I go on what I see in front of me at times like this and Butcher & Malpas have over their time at Hibs taken us from a poor team that won games fairly regularly to a very poor one playing terrible hoofball which couldn't even win even 20% of its games over their period in charge!

They need to leave Hibs and go do their stuff somewhere else allowing the appointment of a quality managing team who can restore Hibs to a team that can play entertaining skilful & organised football winning most of our games!

Otherwise many fans will not return next season or in future years as their style of football is poor, lacks any entertainment value for the fans and doesn't win matches or points!!!!
Well the thing is TornadoHibby, I'm not yet totally convinced that he is the man for Hibs but unlike a lot of people, who have a different point of view (and one I can totally relate to), I will wait to see who he brings in in the close season before I make a final judgement on it. As I've said on other threads, if he ****s that up then you'll certainly get no complaints from me when he gets his jotters. I don't regard that ICT team that he built as a hoofball team really, and if he can build a team like that in the close season then I'll have no complaints either. That might differ from quite a few opinions on here, but right now I'm totally in favour of getting rid of Petrie, but not Butcher. Yet.

[shagpile]

Nonsense. At least get your facts right. He was never manager of Ipswich for a start, he saved Sunderland from relegation (something other managers seem to have to do frequently there) then was sacked virtually at the start of the next season. In Scotland there was Motherwell:
In October 2001, he became assistant to Eric Black at Motherwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherwell_F.C.) in the Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League), taking over from Black a year later as the club was forced to deal with severe financial difficulties, which have since largely abated and Butcher has been praised by the club's supporters and media for his performance under those difficult circumstances. Motherwell reached the 2005 Scottish League Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) final, where his old team Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) defeated them 5–1.And by the way, I live in Lanarkshire amongst quite a few Motherwell supporters and they're virtually, to a man, in agreement with this. As far as his English managerial record is concerned, there's loads of managers up here, successful ones, who haven't cut it down south, such as Walter Smith, Derek McInnes, Billy Davies etc. I'm only interested in his record with Scottish clubs in any case, and unlike you I think it's not bad at all, until he came to us.

If you take a look at the table posted by Stevie Reid then in every job he has had ,he has lost more games than he has won. By quite a margin in most cases.

[Winston Ingram]

Nonsense. At least get your facts right. He was never manager of Ipswich for a start, he saved Sunderland from relegation (something other managers seem to have to do frequently there) then was sacked virtually at the start of the next season. In Scotland there was Motherwell:
In October 2001, he became assistant to Eric Black at Motherwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherwell_F.C.) in the Scottish Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League), taking over from Black a year later as the club was forced to deal with severe financial difficulties, which have since largely abated and Butcher has been praised by the club's supporters and media for his performance under those difficult circumstances. Motherwell reached the 2005 Scottish League Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) final, where his old team Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) defeated them 5–1.And by the way, I live in Lanarkshire amongst quite a few Motherwell supporters and they're virtually, to a man, in agreement with this. As far as his English managerial record is concerned, there's loads of managers up here, successful ones, who haven't cut it down south, such as Walter Smith, Derek McInnes, Billy Davies etc. I'm only interested in his record with Scottish clubs in any case, and unlike you I think it's not bad at all, until he came to us.

They did cut it down South. Smith was Everton Manager for 4 years you don't keep a premier league job for that long if yer p!sh. Davies got Derby promoted and then a hero to the Forest fans in his 1st spell.

I know a number of Motherwell fans through the TA and they weren't exactly gutted when he left.

I don't know your only interested in his Scottish record. It's a global game and it's part of football management. You obviously have very low standards if you think his record in Scotland is 'not bad at all.' It's certainly not good. It peaks at mediocre and plateau's at utter p!sh :agree:

[Nailrod]

Well you've been going on about the bad bits a hell of a lot longer than anything I've said about it. I'll wait to see how he gets on with a team of his own players. If he's still **** then of course I'll agree with you, but not till then.Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.

[Dan Sarf]

Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.

Some of them were.

(I agree with you, by the way.)

[Nailrod]

Here's his record so far...That was a good analysis Stevie.

What might be even more interesting would be to look at all of our last five managers, and see whether, like Butcher, their track record at Hibs was worse than at any of the other clubs they managed.

I don't have the time or the energy to do the analysis, but I've a sneaking feeling the answer might be 'yes'.

[TornadoHibby]

I will wait to see who he brings in in the close season before I make a final judgement on it.

Too late by then pal as he'll have assembled "his" group pf players and if they are anything like the three he brought to us on loan in January, well we can see what the season ahead would bring! :agree:

You are of course entitled to an opinion, I just think that yours is flawed and not simply because you disagree with mine! :wink:

Looks like they are using a bit of "brinksmanship" with the ST prices too as the ST seat renewal date is 01 June (Monday) so if people want to stay in the seat they are in they are being bullied into paying SPFL prices for a lesser standard of football! That's clear for anyone to see! :agree:

And before anyone does this one, I am aware that extra cash will require to be spent on better than standard quality to get out of that league but I don't think that the supporters should be asked to fund yet another flawed excursion into another "let's get the best manager for Hibs" campaign or process only to get another dud who has cost the club dearly with his inabilities and dismal team performances. This on top of several other similar "excursions" by our Chairman (Exec of Non Exec by title, micro manager by day to day practices I've heard!) :wink:

[Winston Ingram]

Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.

i know. It's ridiculous. Anybody could be a manager if they were given employees they only wanted to work with.

Sadly, management in any industry isn't like that.

[greenpaper55]

He signed Chris Hogg ! that sums it up.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=Nailrod;4038430]Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

I don't think it is a pitiful excuse, I think it is a legitimate unanswered question.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

They were mostly utterly pi5h wasters. They were a completely imbalanced squad which had no pace, no goal scorers, no full backs, no midfield playmaker, no leaders on the park, no dead ball expert and a nice set of sick lines.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

How do we know that he doesn't have a better network or better ability to spot a player than Fenlon did and therefore can find the gems in among the garbage? How do we know he won't fish in a different pond using his contacts? How do we know he isn't the very guy to assemble a team on less money that is capable of getting out of the Championship? He doesn't need to be an alchemist he just needs to know which squad blend will give him the players to make whatever system he wants to play work.

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.[/QUO

I started the thread because I want to be convinced beyond all doubt the we shouldn't persist with him before we take the decision (not that we will make it anyway) to spend precious limited cash on severance payments rather than using it in the player budget. Part of me thinks that he hasn't yet had the chance to do it right with his own players and also that the relegation is partly his mess and he should clean it up. On the other hand he should have done better with us to date than he has - but what do you do if your squad essentially downs tools and you have limited alternatives?

A very big part of this season's disaster is simply down to us not having a proper scoring striker. I lay the blame for that at Petrie's door, not Butcher's. I suspect that the judgement was made that while we were poor and needing major surgery, we were still odds on to not get relegated. Therefore wait until the close season when a proper blank sheet of paper overhaul could be done, a bigger range of better players available than in the January window and do the rebuild from there. Except it turned out we were weak enough to be relegated (particularly without Leigh Griffiths' goals or a replacement for them) and it only needed a few rotten apples within the current squad to chuck it in order for morale and confidence to go and Butcher's authority to be undermined.

You may be right - or be proven right about Butcher - but the arguments you have made above do not make your case. I'm not saying he's the answer, just that I'm not yet 100% convinced that he isn't.

[Heedersnvolleys]

Well I am convinced he is not the answer, I have to say I initially thought he was a good appointment purely down to wanting this appointment to work and believing the media hype plus burying my head and ignoring his record prior to ICT.
Please tell me what made these players down tools? There are plenty teams without too much pace that could scrape a win in 19 games to stave off relagation, would it not be a good sign of a manager change the style of play to suit the players at his disposal rather than being a stubborn and arrogant to detriment of the team?
I really don't want to chop and change managers either but he has shown nothing to even pin your hopes on? Also I would rather do it now rather than in October as usual!

[TheFamous1875]

I thought that they'd bring their winning formula to Easter Road and see us quietly through to the next season and start their era. Their tenure at our diabolical club has followed suit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Paisley Hibby]

Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.

Fantastic post :thumbsup:

[Captain Trips]

Jeez I grow weary of this pitiful excuse that Hibs supporters keep waving at each other.

They weren't his players. Ok, they weren't his players, but it's not like they were octopuses, or aliens with only one leg, or bookends. They were, actually, football players, most of whom had several years of experience in the SPL, and some of whom had been pretty successful with other clubs. And it's not like he had to work miracles with them. He didn't have to win the Champions League with them. Just win more than one of his last twenty games or whatever, in the worst top tier in the history of Scottish football.

And what on earth makes you think that he's going to do better with 'his own players' given that these players are going to be fished out of exactly the same pond as the guys who weren't his own players, at exactly the same level or lower, for the same, or probably even less money? Do you really believe that people like Butcher are in fact astounding medieval alchemists, who once they get 'their own players' are going to transform lead into gold?

Prepare to be disappointed, for about the 15th time in the last seven years.

:top marks