Our Club

[Alex Trager]

Following the themes of current threads, I got thinking last night about whether or not we as hibs fans are expecting more than is the 'norm' for us. Now my memory does not go back as far as I would like it to, so you guys will have to pitch in and let me/us know.

Let me start with AM. He, as far as I understand it, worked with us when we had been relegated, he spent a lot of money In getting us promotion, and we had a pretty decent team. Now I have no idea where we finished the season we came up, but am aware we reached the SC final. So I can only assume that we had a decent season. Now looking at it on they two seasons it is fair to say we had a decent team.

Then I believe BW came in and had an average time of it, poor results mixed with good results, again I have no real recollection of this period in time so cant accurately say how things went, and he began blooding the youngsters toward the end of his time.

Then comes TM, TM has young eager to learn players at his disposal, all of age that could pick up the way he wanted to play fairly easily, and of course they had/have quality in abundance. So we start firing, and firing hard, we have an extremely decent side -when it worked- and had a good time when TM was here.

Then JC, he won us the cup with arguably TM’s team, but had problems with the squad at points, he follows that up with on the whole pretty guff signings, off the field we are making EM and crucially the economy is months from collapse. We all know that JC left eventually, leaving us with a pretty poor line of signings etc. just as our best players are getting sold.
So up until now we have had what? forgetting AM and his spending one good team?

Then comes mixu, and the downward spiral starts, we get new players new managers etc all up until now.
So here we are, we have a new stadium a training centre and in my opinion, a man in charge that will take us places, the final thing we need is players of decent quality.

People are getting restless about TB and I understand that, but I feel that we have put all the building blocks into place and he is the last one of them, he is here to embrace what we have and catapult us forward.
My question then, in a roundabout way, is: are we expecting too much? my answer to that is no! I have seen 40,000 hibs fans in Hampden, I have seen our 20,000 capacity stadium and I have seen our training facilities. Everything is there for us to push on from. This leads me to my next thought, are we forgetting how average, certainly over my lifetime, 21 years, Hibs are?

Looking back over all the things ive said, we’ve hardly stood out, TM was the only real standout, barring AM’s team, but that was bought with big bucks, I get the sense that we are maybe forgetting how distinctly average this team is.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG I UNDERSTAND THE POTENTIAL AND AM NOT HAVING A GO AT YOU GUYS OR THE CLUB, merely inviting you to have a think.

There will be lots i've missed out, maybe this is just a cry for a more detailed account from others, but let me know what you guys think. Looking back at our history in general as well , I ask the same questions and believe there to be the same answers! Only a few standout periods in time.

Again though, this is not me accepting mediocrity, merely pointing out what I am aware of as our recent history

I have no idea how many times we've finished in the top four of the SPL since it became the SPL or the SPFL, but I rally don't think it is a lot of times, I recall, two times. SO against what is it that we are expecting great things from our club? It certainly isn't against our recent history anyway, it can only be the potential that we have all seen in abundance.

Overall I really hope we don't get on top of butcher's back and get him sacked cause I think he'll bring good things to our club, I really do, and I think we are all too quick to look for teams playing like TM's which is stupid if you ask me. Again though I am not saying that we should accept crappy performances or crappy teams and crappy league placings

[Islington Hibs]

Interesting post. I too do not think we a re expecting too much. Since the early 1980's Hibs and possibly to an even greater extent Dundee, have been the two clubs who have most under-performed their potential in Scotland. It may be coincidence, but I doubt it.

May things have gone right (mostly off the park) and few would deny Hibs have the best infrastructure in Scotland outside Glasgow. We have still a remarkable latent support despite very poor teams for a long time and some very disappointing big days.

There is another thread on this board about Tom Hart. I never knew him, but his period was the last time Hibs were a real consistent force and absolutely dominated Edinburgh. Perhaps it was his single-mindedness and attention to detail that helped. Although the first 3 months have not gone well I would not be surprised if Terry Butcher does not posses similar characteristics. Ironically Sir Tom Farmer certainly did in his KwikFit days, but not at Hibs.

I don't know why we have failed on the park year in year out, manager in manager out but I wonder if Rod shares that singe mindedness and although I am absolutely a STF fan (and frankly where would we be without his stability) I wonder if his apparent semi detached interest is an issue. I hope Butcher can fill that gap and give us a positive swagger and arrogance back.

I also feel the current board are good at marketing and almost balancing the books but that is different to running the club successfully.

[Michael]

I see it like this: Celtic will be the only team with a bigger wage bill than ours. A lot of people are claiming that Aberdeen are spending beyond their means, but I highly doubt this. I think that they're spending a very similar amount to us, but are using it more effectively.

Spending money isn't everything, but when you consistently have one of the highest wage bills in the league and have been one of the worst performers for years...that's pretty unacceptable.

IMO its simply down to poor management. However, I'm confident(ish) that Butcher will lead us to the top 6 next season.

[J-C]

Interesting post. I too do not think we a re expecting too much. Since the early 1980's Hibs and possibly to an even greater extent Dundee, have been the two clubs who have most under-performed their potential in Scotland. It may be coincidence, but I doubt it.

May things have gone right (mostly off the park) and few would deny Hibs have the best infrastructure in Scotland outside Glasgow. We have still a remarkable latent support despite very poor teams for a long time and some very disappointing big days.

There is another thread on this board about Tom Hart. I never knew him, but his period was the last time Hibs were a real consistent force and absolutely dominated Edinburgh. Perhaps it was his single-mindedness and attention to detail that helped. Although the first 3 months have not gone well I would not be surprised if Terry Butcher does not posses similar characteristics. Ironically Sir Tom Farmer certainly did in his KwikFit days, but not at Hibs.

I don't know why we have failed on the park year in year out, manager in manager out but I wonder if Rod shares that singe mindedness and although I am absolutely a STF fan (and frankly where would we be without his stability) I wonder if his apparent semi detached interest is an issue. I hope Butcher can fill that gap and give us a positive swagger and arrogance back.

I also feel the current board are good at marketing and almost balancing the books but that is different to running the club successfully.

I feel therein lies our problem, we have an owner who helped us initially due to his Leith roots but then appointed one of his business associates Rod, to look after his investment. There is no direction from above, balancing the books seems to be the main aim and getting top 6 is the bottom line, if the board and owner are happy with mediocrity, then the players feel that themselves.....................get top 6, that'll keep the bosses happy.
I don't want us to spend for the sake of spending but just how much have we wasted of crap managers and even more crap players. If we want to be near the top and winning things again the purse strings have to be loosened, I'd rather have 5 very good proven pro's at $4-5K a week than 8 very average ones at £2k, the penny pinching has been mentioned a few times by other on different posts, this needs to be addressed 1st before we can move forward.

[lord bunberry]

Following the themes of current threads, I got thinking last night about whether or not we as hibs fans are expecting more than is the 'norm' for us. Now my memory does not go back as far as I would like it to, so you guys will have to pitch in and let me/us know.

Let me start with AM. He, as far as I understand it, worked with us when we had been relegated, he spent a lot of money In getting us promotion, and we had a pretty decent team. Now I have no idea where we finished the season we came up, but am aware we reached the SC final. So I can only assume that we had a decent season. Now looking at it on they two seasons it is fair to say we had a decent team.

Then I believe BW came in and had an average time of it, poor results mixed with good results, again I have no real recollection of this period in time so cant accurately say how things went, and he began blooding the youngsters toward the end of his time.

Then comes TM, TM has young eager to learn players at his disposal, all of age that could pick up the way he wanted to play fairly easily, and of course they had/have quality in abundance. So we start firing, and firing hard, we have an extremely decent side -when it worked- and had a good time when TM was here.

Then JC, he won us the cup with arguably TM’s team, but had problems with the squad at points, he follows that up with on the whole pretty guff signings, off the field we are making EM and crucially the economy is months from collapse. We all know that JC left eventually, leaving us with a pretty poor line of signings etc. just as our best players are getting sold.
So up until now we have had what? forgetting AM and his spending one good team?

Then comes mixu, and the downward spiral starts, we get new players new managers etc all up until now.
So here we are, we have a new stadium a training centre and in my opinion, a man in charge that will take us places, the final thing we need is players of decent quality.

People are getting restless about TB and I understand that, but I feel that we have put all the building blocks into place and he is the last one of them, he is here to embrace what we have and catapult us forward.
My question then, in a roundabout way, is: are we expecting too much? my answer to that is no! I have seen 40,000 hibs fans in Hampden, I have seen our 20,000 capacity stadium and I have seen our training facilities. Everything is there for us to push on from. This leads me to my next thought, are we forgetting how average, certainly over my lifetime, 21 years, Hibs are?

Looking back over all the things ive said, we’ve hardly stood out, TM was the only real standout, barring AM’s team, but that was bought with big bucks, I get the sense that we are maybe forgetting how distinctly average this team is.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG I UNDERSTAND THE POTENTIAL AND AM NOT HAVING A GO AT YOU GUYS OR THE CLUB, merely inviting you to have a think.

There will be lots i've missed out, maybe this is just a cry for a more detailed account from others, but let me know what you guys think. Looking back at our history in general as well , I ask the same questions and believe there to be the same answers! Only a few standout periods in time.

Again though, this is not me accepting mediocrity, merely pointing out what I am aware of as our recent history

I have no idea how many times we've finished in the top four of the SPL since it became the SPL or the SPFL, but I rally don't think it is a lot of times, I recall, two times. SO against what is it that we are expecting great things from our club? It certainly isn't against our recent history anyway, it can only be the potential that we have all seen in abundance.

Overall I really hope we don't get on top of butcher's back and get him sacked cause I think he'll bring good things to our club, I really do, and I think we are all too quick to look for teams playing like TM's which is stupid if you ask me. Again though I am not saying that we should accept crappy performances or crappy teams and crappy league placings

I don't really get the point of looking to the past as an indicator to how we should be doing today. Outside the two Glasgow teams we have one of the biggest fan bases in the country, we have an excellent modern stadium, we have an excellent training centre, were not in financial trouble and we can outspend most of our rivals. Nothing that has happened in the past can change what we currently have, we should be doing better than the likes of Motherwell and Inverness, maybe not every season but most seasons.

[Alex Trager]

I don't really get the point of looking to the past as an indicator to how we should be doing today. Outside the two Glasgow teams we have one of the biggest fan bases in the country, we have an excellent modern stadium, we have an excellent training centre, were not in financial trouble and we can outspend most of our rivals. Nothing that has happened in the past can change what we currently have, we should be doing better than the likes of Motherwell and Inverness, maybe not every season but most seasons.

Hmm that's a good point. As I said others' opinions help

[Peevemor]

Following the themes of current threads, I got thinking last night about whether or not we as hibs fans are expecting more than is the 'norm' for us. Now my memory does not go back as far as I would like it to, so you guys will have to pitch in and let me/us know.

Let me start with AM. He, as far as I understand it, worked with us when we had been relegated, he spent a lot of money In getting us promotion, and we had a pretty decent team. Now I have no idea where we finished the season we came up, but am aware we reached the SC final. So I can only assume that we had a decent season. Now looking at it on they two seasons it is fair to say we had a decent team.


McLeish had more money to spend on wages than any manager in our History and, before the introduction of transfer windows, brought in new faces on a regular basis - some of whom weren't very good at all (Klaus Deitrich anyone?). However he also brought us the likes of Sauzée, Zitelli, Latapy, etc. but obviously at a cost. With the introduction of transfer windows he could no longer bring in players as and when he needed to freshen up the squad and things went pretty stale. Our record during McLeish's last 10 months, especially in the league, is really quite poor.

Then came Franck the manager. The team were already struggling before he took over and, IMHO, making the immediate step from team-mate/one of the guys to gaffer didn't help.


Then I believe BW came in and had an average time of it, poor results mixed with good results, again I have no real recollection of this period in time so cant accurately say how things went, and he began blooding the youngsters toward the end of his time.

Blobby had to blood youngsters because the wage budget (including his own salary) had been cut drastically. McLeish, with the board's backing (pre-RP) left Hibs with around £18m of debt.


Then comes TM, TM has young eager to learn players at his disposal, all of age that could pick up the way he wanted to play fairly easily, and of course they had/have quality in abundance. So we start firing, and firing hard, we have an extremely decent side -when it worked- and had a good time when TM was here.

TM was lucky to inherit the "golden generation" but there's no doubt he also made some great signings (Murphy) and had us playing great football at times. Unfortunately he wasn't very good with Goalkeepers. Things also started to go stale under TM and not everyone was too dissappointed when he left.


Then JC, he won us the cup with arguably TM’s team, but had problems with the squad at points, he follows that up with on the whole pretty guff signings, off the field we are making EM and crucially the economy is months from collapse. We all know that JC left eventually, leaving us with a pretty poor line of signings etc. just as our best players are getting sold.
So up until now we have had what? forgetting AM and his spending one good team?

Then comes mixu, and the downward spiral starts, we get new players new managers etc all up until now.
So here we are, we have a new stadium a training centre and in my opinion, a man in charge that will take us places, the final thing we need is players of decent quality.

In my opinion, JC started our current rot. His signings were simply crap and every manager since has had to rebuild the hastily rebuilt team of his predecessor.



People are getting restless about TB and I understand that, but I feel that we have put all the building blocks into place and he is the last one of them, he is here to embrace what we have and catapult us forward.
My question then, in a roundabout way, is: are we expecting too much? my answer to that is no! I have seen 40,000 hibs fans in Hampden, I have seen our 20,000 capacity stadium and I have seen our training facilities. Everything is there for us to push on from. This leads me to my next thought, are we forgetting how average, certainly over my lifetime, 21 years, Hibs are?

Looking back over all the things ive said, we’ve hardly stood out, TM was the only real standout, barring AM’s team, but that was bought with big bucks, I get the sense that we are maybe forgetting how distinctly average this team is.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG I UNDERSTAND THE POTENTIAL AND AM NOT HAVING A GO AT YOU GUYS OR THE CLUB, merely inviting you to have a think.
There will be lots i've missed out, maybe this is just a cry for a more detailed account from others, but let me know what you guys think. Looking back at our history in general as well , I ask the same questions and believe there to be the same answers! Only a few standout periods in time.

Again though, this is not me accepting mediocrity, merely pointing out what I am aware of as our recent history

I have no idea how many times we've finished in the top four of the SPL since it became the SPL or the SPFL, but I rally don't think it is a lot of times, I recall, two times. SO against what is it that we are expecting great things from our club? It certainly isn't against our recent history anyway, it can only be the potential that we have all seen in abundance.

Overall I really hope we don't get on top of butcher's back and get him sacked cause I think he'll bring good things to our club, I really do, and I think we are all too quick to look for teams playing like TM's which is stupid if you ask me. Again though I am not saying that we should accept crappy performances or crappy teams and crappy league placings


I too think that TB will produce the goods given a decent amount of time - starting this summer hopefully.

[Mikey]

The club should be doing consistently better than ICT, Motherwell and St Johnstone and be a wee bit ahead of Dundee United and Aberdeen. TB should get us there but if he doesn't he won't be the first to fail.

[ManBearPig]

I think the past remains just that I think I agree with almost all your comments but feel there is just a hint of resentment that we didn't 'kick on' after LC cup triumph. but rarely do any teams outside old firm. mark my words Aberdeen will fall away over next two years. hibs will get better it will just take time.

[superfurryhibby]

IN my 45 years of supporting Hibs we have had a decent side for less than 10 seasons. I've been lucky enough to see the three or four years of quality football that Turnbull brought, the odd season of promise under Miller, a season of entertainment under McLeish and the same or thereabouts under Mowbray and Collins. All in all it adds up to a history of underachievement.

Given our resources, fanbase etc we should have and could have done better. Will this ever change? I have my doubts but I remain ever hopeful!

[Waxy]

The whole club probably needs shaken up.changes at the top. Though if it does we might end up worse off.
We are hardly in a crisis.Give Butcher and his team some time and if they fail, changes at the top are a must.

[Alex Trager]

IN my 45 years of supporting Hibs we have had a decent side for less than 10 seasons. I've been lucky enough to see the three or four years of quality football that Turnbull brought, the odd season of promise under Miller, a season of entertainment under McLeish and the same or thereabouts under Mowbray and Collins. All in all it adds up to a history of underachievement.

Given our resources, fanbase etc we should have and could have done better. Will this ever change? I have my doubts but I remain ever hopeful!

This is how I feel. With half the years of your experience. I reckon we'll have two or three seasons and then fall away and there'll be another thread like this sometime in the future. Hopefully butcher takes us places and crucially stays with us

[The Modfather]

In my opinion, JC started our current rot. His signings were simply crap and every manager since has had to rebuild the hastily rebuilt team of his predecessor.

Some good points in your post Peevemor, but I don't agree with the above. I accept all the flaws that came with Collins (possible lack of man management skills, eventual poor signings in the main, trying to impliment his ideas and ethos too quickly etc).

However I don't believe the context of his job at that time is always fully apreciated. He was asked to replace the best quality we'd had in years with a budget he did not feel was a fair investment of the money he had been instrumental in helping to bring in. He wasn't able to do this. In my mind the market he felt we should have been looking in to replace the likes of Brown and O'connor etc was spot on. No one was asking for like for like replacements, but replacing a 4.5m player with a 1m player with a re-sale value of his own was totally realistic (I don't believe ALL 1m players command the 10k, 20k, 30k etc salaries that we can't afford, before Blackpool Hibs throws his tuppance in :wink: we just have to look in the right markets). I don't want to debate the merits of specifically Steven Naismith as that has been done to death, but I don't believe he was genuinely backed in the signing of players of that calibre, but opted for the likes of Joe Keenan instead anyway. He was given an impossible budget to repalce that team, but he did spend that budget poorly.

I would agree that the current rot set in under Collins, but not that it set in because of Collins. A John Collins side was identifiable, he wanted to play the ball on the ground and from the back (whether we always had the players capable of doing this is another matter), be the fittest team in the league and not afraid to change tactics/try new things. For every Kevin Mcann at CB (and there was logic in the belief about giving players and understanding of how other positions affected their own position, even if that example failed) there was The Murph at DM marking Scott Brown out of the game. In my time Collins was one of the first, and certainly last, managers able, and more importantly, willing to change tactics and make subs when needed whether it be the 1st minute or last minute of a match.

To me it is clear as day the corelation between Collins ideas on lifestyle and profesionalisim, the unsuccessfull implimentation of these and the subsequent culture that had/has to be specifically addressed.

Thread sufficently hijacked by the John Collins Appreciation Society :greengrin

[jacomo]

However I don't believe the context of his job at that time is always fully apreciated. He was asked to replace the best quality we'd had in years with a budget he did not feel was a fair investment of the money he had been instrumental in helping to bring in. He wasn't able to do this. In my mind the market he felt we should have been looking in to replace the likes of Brown and O'connor etc was spot on. No one was asking for like for like replacements, but replacing a 4.5m player with a 1m player with a re-sale value of his own was totally realistic (I don't believe ALL 1m players command the 10k, 20k, 30k etc salaries that we can't afford, before Blackpool Hibs throws his tuppance in :wink: we just have to look in the right markets). I don't want to debate the merits of specifically Steven Naismith as that has been done to death, but I don't believe he was genuinely backed in the signing of players of that calibre, but opted for the likes of Joe Keenan instead anyway. He was given an impossible budget to repalce that team, but he did spend that budget poorly.

I would agree that the current rot set in under Collins, but not that it set in because of Collins. A John Collins side was identifiable, he wanted to play the ball on the ground and from the back (whether we always had the players capable of doing this is another matter), be the fittest team in the league and not afraid to change tactics/try new things. For every Kevin Mcann at CB (and there was logic in the belief about giving players and understanding of how other positions affected their own position, even if that example failed) there was The Murph at DM marking Scott Brown out of the game. In my time Collins was one of the first, and certainly last, managers able, and more importantly, willing to change tactics and make subs when needed whether it be the 1st minute or last minute of a match.

To me it is clear as day the corelation between Collins ideas on lifestyle and profesionalisim, the unsuccessfull implimentation of these and the subsequent culture that had/has to be specifically addressed.

Thread sufficently hijacked by the John Collins Appreciation Society :greengrin

A recurring lesson from football is that you invest when you are on the up. We absolutely failed to do that in 2007 and now the club would kill for the crowds and turnover we had back then.

From memory, it was Mixu that signed Joe Keenan? Be that as it may, JC placed too much faith in signing young players with technical ability who weren't the real deal - Donaldson, Big Maka, O'Brien (maybe), Thicot, Joneleit. The balance of the squad was wrong with too few natural leaders on the pitch. I also think he had the wrong choice of assistant manager.

But his team were often a delight to watch and the man had huge ambitions for Hibs.

[Peevemor]

Some good points in your post Peevemor, but I don't agree with the above. I accept all the flaws that came with Collins (possible lack of man management skills, eventual poor signings in the main, trying to impliment his ideas and ethos too quickly etc).

However I don't believe the context of his job at that time is always fully apreciated. He was asked to replace the best quality we'd had in years with a budget he did not feel was a fair investment of the money he had been instrumental in helping to bring in. He wasn't able to do this. In my mind the market he felt we should have been looking in to replace the likes of Brown and O'connor etc was spot on. No one was asking for like for like replacements, but replacing a 4.5m player with a 1m player with a re-sale value of his own was totally realistic (I don't believe ALL 1m players command the 10k, 20k, 30k etc salaries that we can't afford, before Blackpool Hibs throws his tuppance in :wink: we just have to look in the right markets). I don't want to debate the merits of specifically Steven Naismith as that has been done to death, but I don't believe he was genuinely backed in the signing of players of that calibre, but opted for the likes of Joe Keenan instead anyway. He was given an impossible budget to repalce that team, but he did spend that budget poorly.

I would agree that the current rot set in under Collins, but not that it set in because of Collins. A John Collins side was identifiable, he wanted to play the ball on the ground and from the back (whether we always had the players capable of doing this is another matter), be the fittest team in the league and not afraid to change tactics/try new things. For every Kevin Mcann at CB (and there was logic in the belief about giving players and understanding of how other positions affected their own position, even if that example failed) there was The Murph at DM marking Scott Brown out of the game. In my time Collins was one of the first, and certainly last, managers able, and more importantly, willing to change tactics and make subs when needed whether it be the 1st minute or last minute of a match.

To me it is clear as day the corelation between Collins ideas on lifestyle and profesionalisim, the unsuccessfull implimentation of these and the subsequent culture that had/has to be specifically addressed.

Thread sufficently hijacked by the John Collins Appreciation Society :greengrin

JC still had one of the highest player budgets (if not the highest) outside the OF and Hearts - he spent a fair whack on O'Brien and apparently Makalamby was one of our top earners - in my eyes he wasted the money he got and filled the squad with dross.

I also think JC gets too much credit for the Brown and KT fees. From what I seen he didn't improve them as players and RP dealt with the transfer negotiations (I don't think anyone doubts his abilty to get the best deal for Hibs when selling players).

[ManBearPig]

JC still had one of the highest player budgets (if not the highest) outside the OF and Hearts - he spent a fair whack on O'Brien and apparently Makalamby was one of our top earners - in my eyes he wasted the money he got and filled the squad with dross.

I also think JC gets too much credit for the Brown and KT fees. From what I seen he didn't improve them as players and RP dealt with the transfer negotiations (I don't think anyone doubts his abilty to get the best deal for Hibs when selling players).

agreed. I think if he truly valued his ability and tactics he would have fought longer and harder to prove himself as manager. he didnt he left. he was youbg inexperienced manger a d done very little since then.(join a junior team and dop at livi!?)

[Chump]

I see a lot of posts here talking about the managers budget, players wages etc......is that just speculation or is this information that is available to the public?

Do the accounts get published and does it break it down specifically or are people on here a) speculating or b) in the know??

[Jones28]

I think we are perfectly within our rights to demand more. We pay out money, and a not inconsiderable amount of it, and in return expect to see us compete.

For the size of support and ticket prices I expect us to compete in the top 4, pushing third.

[Alex Trager]

I think we are perfectly within our rights to demand more. We pay out money, and a not inconsiderable amount of it, and in return expect to see us compete.

For the size of support and ticket prices I expect us to compete in the top 4, pushing third.

Completely agree. I was trying to point out that it's not as if we have had more and lost it. Minus a few seasons that hasn't really been the case. I suppose I am just as frustrated as you guys. Although doubtful that im as much as you guys

[Stewboy]

Currently sitting 7th in a one horse race and if current form dictates anything we will be finishing around 9th or 10th - probably saved from 11th due to other teams picking up points against each other

In most other countries budget dictates where you finish but not generally in Scotland (ex old firm obviously) so does that mean the Scottish game is purely down to fitness and the ability to mix it. If so then we are where we deserve to be because for years we have been unfit and soft as a baby's crap

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I've only read the first post on the thread before responding.

Rod told us to be patient whilst the infrastructure was put in place.

My patience has ran out, I don't think I'm alone.

Back to you Rod.

[TornadoHibby]

Some good points in your post Peevemor, but I don't agree with the above. I accept all the flaws that came with Collins (possible lack of man management skills, eventual poor signings in the main, trying to impliment his ideas and ethos too quickly etc).

However I don't believe the context of his job at that time is always fully apreciated. He was asked to replace the best quality we'd had in years with a budget he did not feel was a fair investment of the money he had been instrumental in helping to bring in. He wasn't able to do this. In my mind the market he felt we should have been looking in to replace the likes of Brown and O'connor etc was spot on. No one was asking for like for like replacements, but replacing a 4.5m player with a 1m player with a re-sale value of his own was totally realistic (I don't believe ALL 1m players command the 10k, 20k, 30k etc salaries that we can't afford, before Blackpool Hibs throws his tuppance in :wink: we just have to look in the right markets). I don't want to debate the merits of specifically Steven Naismith as that has been done to death, but I don't believe he was genuinely backed in the signing of players of that calibre, but opted for the likes of Joe Keenan instead anyway. He was given an impossible budget to repalce that team, but he did spend that budget poorly.

I would agree that the current rot set in under Collins, but not that it set in because of Collins. A John Collins side was identifiable, he wanted to play the ball on the ground and from the back (whether we always had the players capable of doing this is another matter), be the fittest team in the league and not afraid to change tactics/try new things. For every Kevin Mcann at CB (and there was logic in the belief about giving players and understanding of how other positions affected their own position, even if that example failed) there was The Murph at DM marking Scott Brown out of the game. In my time Collins was one of the first, and certainly last, managers able, and more importantly, willing to change tactics and make subs when needed whether it be the 1st minute or last minute of a match.

To me it is clear as day the corelation between Collins ideas on lifestyle and profesionalisim, the unsuccessfull implimentation of these and the subsequent culture that had/has to be specifically addressed.

Thread sufficently hijacked by the John Collins Appreciation Society :greengrin

:top marks for the bit in bold! :agree:

[Hibercelona]

The way I see it. A past of underachievement, shouldn't be an excuse for a future of underachievement as well.

Looking back at the past should make us more determined to do better in the future, not less.

We're a big club (in terms of our own league) and should be bettering teams with a fraction of our infrastructure more often than not. Not the other way around.

[blackpoolhibs]

I've only read the first post on the thread before responding.

Rod told us to be patient whilst the infrastructure was put in place.

My patience has ran out, I don't think I'm alone.

Back to you Rod.

Have you not heard, we have a 5 year plan now, and we are well into the first year of it?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Just spat my Sprite lite all over my monitor!

[jeffers]

Have you not heard, we have a 5 year plan now, and we are well into the first year of it?

Are these dog years ??

[Hibercelona]

Are these dog years ??

Quahog years.

[blackpoolhibs]

Just spat my Sprite lite all over my monitor!



:tee hee:

[rcarter1]

agreed. I think if he truly valued his ability and tactics he would have fought longer and harder to prove himself as manager. he didnt he left. he was young inexperienced manger a d done very little since then.(join a junior team and dop at livi!?)

In retrospect how many of the following could be considered successful managers over the piece: McLeish, Sauzee, Williamson, Mowbray, Collins, Mixu, Yogi, Calderwood, Fenlon…

[Alex Trager]

The way I see it. A past of underachievement, shouldn't be an excuse for a future of underachievement as well.

Looking back at the past should make us more determined to do better in the future, not less.

We're a big club (in terms of our own league) and should be bettering teams with a fraction of our infrastructure more often than not. Not the other way around.

Of course not. I'm just getting at the fact that it's not as if we have been brilliant and slumped. Just generally rubbish haha.

[Alex Trager]

I've only read the first post on the thread before responding.

Rod told us to be patient whilst the infrastructure was put in place.

My patience has ran out, I don't think I'm alone.

Back to you Rod.

I agree with this

[Hibercelona]

Of course not. I'm just getting at the fact that it's not as if we have been brilliant and slumped. Just generally rubbish haha.

Correct. We've been rubbish and we've slumped even further.