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english_hibee
10-11-2012, 12:46 AM
Let's all remember that Sunday is the 11th November, Remembrance Sunday, the day we pay our respect to those who fought for our country, and those who continue to do so.

So while everything is going on, the "plight" of our neighbours, the game we have, Skacel, Thomson, etc etc......let's show Hibs class shining though and pay our respects in a dignified manner to a cause that really matters.

There will be the wreath exchange and a minutes silence - lets honour it

Frazerbob
10-11-2012, 12:49 AM
Well said but I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Any remembrance silence will be observed as usual

Pretty Boy
10-11-2012, 01:34 AM
Would be shocked if any Hibs fans let the side down by disrespecting the Remembrance Day silence.

We're better than that.

Hibercelona
10-11-2012, 02:17 AM
Would be shocked if any Hibs fans let the side down by disrespecting the Remembrance Day silence.

We're better than that.

:agree:

It doesn't matter what political side you're on. It's a minutes silence in respect of those who's lives have been lost in tragedy and should always be observed with the utmost respect.

Vini1875
10-11-2012, 03:37 AM
I disagree with this silence being held at ER, but I wouldn't disrupt it.

HibeeMG
10-11-2012, 03:41 AM
I disagree with this silence being held at ER, but I wouldn't disrupt it.

Without wanting to get into a debate, may I ask why you disagree with it?

Vini1875
10-11-2012, 04:02 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.

Onion
10-11-2012, 06:58 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.

Wow. The Admins need to delete this thread quickly before it upsets a lot of people and insults the memory of the MILLIONS who fought and died for this country in 2 World Wars.

Truly frightening !

euansdad
10-11-2012, 07:15 AM
Will be observed as per usual at our ground. Lest we forget

lucky
10-11-2012, 07:56 AM
It was not that long ago there was a thread on here wishing a Hibbie a safe return from his tour of Afghanistan. Surely we can show our respects from people who have laid down there life's in various conflicts of behalf of us.
The game is being televised and as a club and support we will be vilified by everyone if the minutes silence is not observed. Remember both Celtic and Hearts have previously let themselves down during minutes silences. As a support let's be respectful of the occasion.

AberdreamHibee
10-11-2012, 08:10 AM
There are differences.

Whilst I am not convinced the soldiers were sent to Afghanistan and Iraq for the right reasons, we should always respect them for serving the country. It is the politicians such as Tony Blair we should be hating and disrespecting, not the soliders he sent on his behalf.

People also forget with remembrance day that a vast majority of the people that died in the last decade have been those who were defending our freedom from the Nazi empire in ww2 and the european issues of ww1. They all died so we could live as we do today and we have to be eternally grateful to them for that.

Jesus, one man, apparently died so we may live and is remembered on numerous occasions throughout the year in major fashion.
What about the 60,000,000 in ww2 and the 16,000,000 in ww1?

Phil D. Rolls
10-11-2012, 08:10 AM
Wow. The Admins need to delete this thread quickly before it upsets a lot of people and insults the memory of the MILLIONS who fought and died for this country in 2 World Wars.

Truly frightening !

If people really cared about soldiers getting killed, maimed and psychologically scarred, they would question the need for Britain to be fighting in so many conflicts.

Observe the silence, think about the costs, think about the causes.

HUTCHYHIBBY
10-11-2012, 08:19 AM
There will be the wreath exchange and a minutes silence - lets honour it

What gave you doubts about it being observed? Some people may have questionable beliefs, but, still seem to be able to STFU for 60 seconds. I very much doubt you'll have anything to worry about on Sunday pm.

Cabbage East
10-11-2012, 08:25 AM
I thought this silence was at 11am?

Greendub
10-11-2012, 08:30 AM
Wow. The Admins need to delete this thread quickly before it upsets a lot of people and insults the memory of the MILLIONS who fought and died for this country in 2 World Wars.

Truly frightening !

I don't think there is any need for that, people have different views regarding rememberance and what it stands for.

I for one will hold my respects, just because someone holds different views I don't think there is any need to get on their case unless they are very disrespectful.

Which I don't think he has.

If he had said ****** rememberance day, burn poppies then aye

lucky
10-11-2012, 08:32 AM
It was not that long ago there was a thread on here wishing a Hibbie a safe return from his tour of Afghanistan. Surely we can show our respects from people who have laid down there life's in various conflicts of behalf of us.
The game is being televised and as a club and support we will be vilified by everyone if the minutes silence is not observed. Remember both Celtic and Hearts have previously let themselves down during minutes silences. As a support let's be respectful of the occasion.

Golden Bear
10-11-2012, 08:33 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.

Absolute drivel.

gackohibs
10-11-2012, 08:36 AM
i will honour it, i always do.

i think its pathetic and embarrassing in this day and age how its so damn difficult to keep quiet for 60 seconds? its all about respect.

.Sean.
10-11-2012, 08:39 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.

The tricoulour in the avatar says it all. What a pile of absolute ******. I disagree with this post so much i'm not even going to waste my time and dissect it. You're not the loud-mouthed, self proclaimed 'Rebel' who sat in front of me in the East the last few years are you? Because he was an absolute Neanderthal with similar views. Hated all things Scottish/ Brittish, and even was even heard calling Wotherspoon and Hanlon 'pieces o' Scotland *****'.

BouncerRoss
10-11-2012, 09:02 AM
The tricoulour in the avatar says it all. What a pile of absolute ******. I disagree with this post so much i'm not even going to waste my time and dissect it. You're not the loud-mouthed, self proclaimed 'Rebel' who sat in front of me in the East the last few years are you? Because he was an absolute Neanderthal with similar views. Hated all things Scottish/ Brittish, and even was even heard calling Wotherspoon and Hanlon 'pieces o' Scotland *****'.

What he said about the poppy is completely true. I disagree about only observing silence at 11am, however you cannot ignore the facts about the poppy appeal.

WindyMiller
10-11-2012, 09:02 AM
If people really cared about soldiers getting killed, maimed and psychologically scarred, they would question the need for Britain to be fighting in so many conflicts.

Observe the silence, think about the costs, think about the causes.


Correct!

Bostonhibby
10-11-2012, 09:04 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.

Many of us are able to set aside our personal beliefs as to the merits of a war and whether or not we should be there and recognise the fact that there are brave, no actually heroic, people who go and do it on our collective behalf whatever the arguments, its them and their memory we honour and the Poppy is as good a way of symbolising our recognition of what they do as any.

The Poppy is what you personally make of it, for me it's one of the few symbols today that I will give money for and will actually wear to show my appreciation of their efforts, to help with the after care which is not great and lastly to recognise those who fought and fell in the First World War in particular.

When we do this at ER the impeccable silence usually reflects the fact that the vast majority want to show their support, respect or whatever they feel by observing the silence, Sunday will be no different.
I disagree re fighting for their rulers - rulers come and go - that's what conscripted armies tend to do because they are forced into it by jingoistic dictators, they normally have huge armies and big budgets but collapse as soon as they actually have to fight because they do not beleive in their leaders or the cause. I don't think that applies to most of our troops at all they tend towards professionalism and fight for their country knowing its what they signed up for especially so in the great wars.

Frazerbob
10-11-2012, 09:08 AM
What he said about the poppy is completely true. I disagree about only observing silence at 11am, however you cannot ignore the facts about the poppy appeal.

What facts are you talking about?

BouncerRoss
10-11-2012, 09:18 AM
What facts are you talking about?

Facts was a bad choice of word.

I stand by my own view that Poppy's shouldn't be used commercially and should stay clear of sports in general. If a poppy is worn on a strip it's almost as if you are forced to agree with its political agenda when everyone should have a choice as to whether or not they support the appeal. I would prefer that if needed in this day and age we should be promoting peace with a white poppy like they done after the first world war until the British Legion used it for money raising & propaganda.

Mon Dieu4
10-11-2012, 09:18 AM
The tricoulour in the avatar says it all. What a pile of absolute ******. I disagree with this post so much i'm not even going to waste my time and dissect it. You're not the loud-mouthed, self proclaimed 'Rebel' who sat in front of me in the East the last few years are you? Because he was an absolute Neanderthal with similar views. Hated all things Scottish/ Brittish, and even was even heard calling Wotherspoon and Hanlon 'pieces o' Scotland *****'.

the guy you describe sounds suspiciously like Mr IRA as i used to call him, sat a couple of seats away from me in the old East, lost count of the amount of times i had run ins with him for the nonsense he spouted, funnily enough shuts up when you ask him politely ;)

Paisley Hibby
10-11-2012, 09:22 AM
What facts are you talking about?

I think the point being made is that we should not need charities to support members of the armed forces who have been injured in war - or to support their families where they have been killed. Nor should we need a charity to commemorate the sacrifices made. The successive Governments who have sent folk to war in the first place should be funding all that. I think that's a fair point. However, other than that, I can't be doing with the ill informed pseudo political crap being spouted by the green brigade and others about rememberance sunday.

Vini1875
10-11-2012, 09:31 AM
The tricoulour in the avatar says it all. What a pile of absolute ******. I disagree with this post so much i'm not even going to waste my time and dissect it. You're not the loud-mouthed, self proclaimed 'Rebel' who sat in front of me in the East the last few years are you? Because he was an absolute Neanderthal with similar views. Hated all things Scottish/ Brittish, and even was even heard calling Wotherspoon and Hanlon 'pieces o' Scotland *****'.

That is a bit blinkered ie associating the tricolour with anything. I was asked why I disagreed, I gave my reasons. I will not break the silence. However we are asked to have them or will be asked to have for things people may not agree with such as the death of a royal. I disagree that they should be held at ER but again I wouldn't break the silence but I would disagree. Just because the silence is observed doesn't mean everyone agrees with it.

Look at the poppy on the BBC every single person must wear one. To me that is facist, no choices given, no different views tolerated. I have a different view from most which apparently makes it drivel or I'm Neanderthal. I don't swallow the propaganda.

killie-hibby
10-11-2012, 09:49 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know? The poppy has politicised to back recent wars which 100s of thousands marched against.

I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business. The tradgedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.

Also the poppy being sold to help pay for support of those injured is charity. When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.




Your thinking is a bit warped. During this and the last century wars have been fought to overthrow dictators and organisations such as Hitler,Hussain,Assad and the Taliban with the intention of introducing democracy into oppressed countries.
Having served in Iraq with the British Army I will at ER on Sunday stand to attention in silence to think of, and honour the memories of colleagues who died in the Middle East and others who have since died due to physical and mental scarring after fighting to allow others the right to vote and freely express opinions.
Without democracy you Vini1875 would not be able to freely post your opinions on any media site unless it agreed with the government or dictator in power.
I feel pity for you.

Frazerbob
10-11-2012, 10:35 AM
I think the point being made is that we should not need charities to support members of the armed forces who have been injured in war - or to support their families where they have been killed. Nor should we need a charity to commemorate the sacrifices made. The successive Governments who have sent folk to war in the first place should be funding all that. I think that's a fair point. However, other than that, I can't be doing with the ill informed pseudo political crap being spouted by the green brigade and others about rememberance sunday.

Pretty much agree with what you say however you could say the same about many charities. Should we not buy the Big Issue because the homeless should be looked after by the government? The many cancer charities.....etc etc etc. The list of worthy causes that SHOULD be fully funded by the our taxes is endless but the pot isn't bottomless (especially when some avoid paying theirs :wink:). The sad fact is that these charities are required and we should support them when ever we can.

The political agenda that seems to surround the poppy the last few years is a damned shame IMO.

Big Ed
10-11-2012, 10:39 AM
Your thinking is a bit warped. During this and the last century wars have been fought to overthrow dictators and organisations such as Hitler,Hussain,Assad and the Taliban with the intention of introducing democracy into oppressed countries.
Having served in Iraq with the British Army I will at ER on Sunday stand to attention in silence to think of, and honour the memories of colleagues who died in the Middle East and others who have since died due to physical and mental scarring after fighting to allow others the right to vote and freely express opinions.
Without democracy you Vini1875 would not be able to freely post your opinions on any media site unless it agreed with the government or dictator in power.
I feel pity for you.

I think you are being a wee bit harsh on Vini: I think his posts on this thread have some merit, though I disagree with the implication that people join the Army for political reasons (which is what I took to mean when he said "The tragedy for me is that people join armies in the first place. They are not fighting for their country they are fighting for the rulers.")

Surely the role of the military should be to protect our country: not imposing democracy on others, whether they want it or not?

Beefster
10-11-2012, 11:57 AM
I think war is what capalists do when they run out of ideas on how to make profits and send people from one country into another in which they have no business.

This is up there with 'man didn't land on the moon' and '9/11 was a plot by the US government'.


Observe the silence, think about the costs, think about the causes.

Or even think about the people who died.

Hibs Class
10-11-2012, 12:22 PM
That is a bit blinkered ie associating the tricolour with anything. I was asked why I disagreed, I gave my reasons. I will not break the silence. However we are asked to have them or will be asked to have for things people may not agree with such as the death of a royal. I disagree that they should be held at ER but again I wouldn't break the silence but I would disagree. Just because the silence is observed doesn't mean everyone agrees with it.

Look at the poppy on the BBC every single person must wear one. To me that is facist, no choices given, no different views tolerated. I have a different view from most which apparently makes it drivel or I'm Neanderthal. I don't swallow the propaganda.

Sounds to me like you've just swallowed a different kind of propaganda.

Betty Boop
10-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Rangers have this on their pitch to end their minutes silence.

http://twitpic.com/bbzqv9

(((Fergus)))
10-11-2012, 02:02 PM
Rangers have this on their pitch to end their minutes silence.

http://twitpic.com/bbzqv9

That's the sort of situation that could result in a tragic accident. Possibly two.

--------
10-11-2012, 04:01 PM
What he said about the poppy is completely true. I disagree about only observing silence at 11am, however you cannot ignore the facts about the poppy appeal.


What 'facts' exactly?

One Day Soon
10-11-2012, 04:40 PM
Is it really necessary on a thread entitled 'Lest we forget' to have people declaiming their qualified support for matters to do with the one minute silence such as poppies and money collecting? It would be refreshing if a thread such as this could just once not become a shop window for differing opinions that look suspiciously like competing versions of uber fan debates.

Couldn't we, out of respect for people who laid down their lives, have one thread where people who want to can express their appreciation and remembrance without having that sullied by the political predelictions of those of us who have never even had the smell of gunfire in our noses let alone actually seen active service? Regardless of whether you are pro or anti red poppy or anything else.

Tomorrow at 11 isn't about the rights and wrongs of any given war. It is about remembering the fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, sons and daughters who didn't return home.

yeezus.
10-11-2012, 04:49 PM
I disagree with this silence being held at ER, but I wouldn't disrupt it.

Same.

I wouldn't dare disrupt the silence.

.Sean.
10-11-2012, 06:49 PM
the guy you describe sounds suspiciously like Mr IRA as i used to call him, sat a couple of seats away from me in the old East, lost count of the amount of times i had run ins with him for the nonsense he spouted, funnily enough shuts up when you ask him politely ;)

He also sat in the 'new' east. Row Q. A fat greaser with slicked back hair. Takes a multi-flag to ER inc tricolour. The guy's a ****, I hope he reads this. He was all for acting the big man until I offered to stick my trainer in his face. Prick. Disgusting, backwards attitude, he'd be more at home at Parkhead.

Sylar
10-11-2012, 06:57 PM
Rangers have this on their pitch to end their minutes silence.

http://twitpic.com/bbzqv9

Say what you like about the possible political/sectarian undertones of their pro-Britishness but their display, half time tribute and allowing free entry to all service personnel to the game today was a touch of class IMO. You see it all the time in the US, where military personnel are welcome to games for free, given VIP treatment and the gratitude they deserve - something not often witnessed here.

Betty Boop
10-11-2012, 07:03 PM
Say what you like about the possible political/sectarian undertones of their pro-Britishness but their display, half time tribute and allowing free entry to all service personnel to the game today was a touch of class IMO. You see it all the time in the US, where military personnel are welcome to games for free, given VIP treatment and the gratitude they deserve - something not often witnessed here.


The day I see a canon on the pitch at Easter Road, will be my last.

Sylar
10-11-2012, 07:05 PM
The day I see a canon on the pitch at Easter Road, will be my last.

I don't recall making any remark about the cannon in my post, but carry on :agree:

Take it you're not a fan of Edinburgh Castle?

Betty Boop
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I don't recall making any remark about the cannon in my post, but carry on :agree:

Take it you're not a fan of Edinburgh Castle?

Maybe for another thread.:greengrin

.Sean.
10-11-2012, 07:13 PM
Rule Brittania


Self-proclaimed 'HibbyHun'. Brittish and proud, nothing worse than a fake Irishaman.

Betty Boop
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
Rule Brittania


Self-proclaimed 'HibbyHun'. Brittish and proud, nothing worse than a fake Irishaman.


Good grief ! :faf:

--------
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
The day I see a canon on the pitch at Easter Road, will be my last.


Cannon as in big gun, or Canon as in Hannan? :wink:

I wear a poppy, and I contribute to the fund gladly. My generation was the first in my family in the 20th century NOT to have to go to war, largely because my father's and grandfather's generations DID.

Too many people forget that THEY have the freedom to have tender consciences about whether to wear a poppy, what colour it should be, how much to out in the tin, and so on, because the men of my father's generation stepped up to resist Hitler and his allies - and many paid a very high price for doing so.

We all want to be defended; some of us are too quick to condemn our defenders after the event.

I have a Remembrance service tomorrow in the Caldera. Anyone and everyone prepared to conduct himself or herself in a courteous and respectful manner is welcome to join me - the door isn't closed on anyone.

The world we live in, we need to be defended - that means we need armed forces. And those who serve in our armed forces at risk of life and limb are entitled to our respect and care when they return to civilian life. Poppy Scotland works towards that aim, and they get my full support every year.

Gatecrasher
10-11-2012, 07:31 PM
Say what you like about the possible political/sectarian undertones of their pro-Britishness but their display, half time tribute and allowing free entry to all service personnel to the game today was a touch of class IMO. You see it all the time in the US, where military personnel are welcome to games for free, given VIP treatment and the gratitude they deserve - something not often witnessed here.
Hibs gave away some ST a few years back, not sure if they still do it.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20090917/hibernian-donate-tickets-to-army-families_2262950_1800350

Betty Boop
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Cannon as in big gun, or Canon as in Hannan? :wink:

As for Edinburgh Castle, I treasure the memory of the day this woman from Rochdale came up to me and asked me what time did the One-O'clock Gun go off.

Aw soz, cannon ! :greengrin

heretoday
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
The silence was always at 11.00 am in the sixties when I were't nipper. After that everyone dispersed and got on with their lives for another year.

And that was mostly people who had actually fought and endured the second world war and many from the first conflict too.

A crisp November morning. Men in winter coats. One or two ladies dabbing a tear away. The last post.

Why have we got so hysterical about it now?

Bishop Hibee
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
For what it's worth I don't think their should be a minutes silence at the game tomorrow. 11.00a.m. is the time for that.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions about what that means I do or don't believe, I won't be at the game tomorrow as I am co-ordinating the Leith Service of Remembrance at 3.00p.m. in Leith Community Treatment Centre, Junction Place. Leith does not have a war memorial in the conventional sense. My understanding is that after WW1, the citizens of Leith raised funds to build the Children's Ward of Leith Hospital as a memorial. When Leith Hospital closed, the plaques etc. were relocated to the Treatment Centre and the Service has been there for a number of years now.

All welcome after the game and you get a nice cup of tea and a bun after :thumbsup:

harpo
11-11-2012, 01:18 AM
Your thinking is a bit warped. During this and the last century wars have been fought to overthrow dictators and organisations such as Hitler,Hussain,Assad and the Taliban with the intention of introducing democracy into oppressed countries.
Having served in Iraq with the British Army I will at ER on Sunday stand to attention in silence to think of, and honour the memories of colleagues who died in the Middle East and others who have since died due to physical and mental scarring after fighting to allow others the right to vote and freely express opinions.
Without democracy you Vini1875 would not be able to freely post your opinions on any media site unless it agreed with the government or dictator in power.
I feel pity for you.

I actually have pity for you and the many servicemen and women who have put their lives on the line fighting the wars in the middle east believing they are doing it in the name of democracy. In my opinion its got nothing to do with democracy but everything to do with power, oil and wealth.

'Poor working people in this country are sent to kill poor working people in another country to make the rich richer. if only the soilders realised they have more in common with the iraqi people than they do with the billionairs who send us to war'.....Not my words but the words are from ex us iraqi veteran Mike Prysner. Well worth a listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm3nYN8aG8&feature=related

Pete
11-11-2012, 07:13 AM
Rule Brittania


Self-proclaimed 'HibbyHun'. Brittish and proud, nothing worse than a fake Irishaman.


What's a "fake Irishman"?

Look at the surnames in Scotland and where they are from. Look at immigration trends.

Believe it or not there are as many people in Scotland who have a connection to Ireland as there are those who have one to England. As for being "british"...that's up to the individual but I wouldn't question those who don't consider themselves to be.

You can be British and proud AND respect peoples rights to acknowledge their Irish/Celtic roots at the same time...unless you are a bigot.

Beefster
11-11-2012, 08:03 AM
I actually have pity for you and the many servicemen and women who have put their lives on the line fighting the wars in the middle east believing they are doing it in the name of democracy.

How incredibly patronising.

lapsedhibee
11-11-2012, 08:46 AM
Silence is held at 11am for those wishing to obseve it. Why it has to be held again at the ground I don't know?

:agree:

When the government sent them to fight should be picking up the tab for the support needed when they come back.
:agree:

The silence was always at 11.00 am in the sixties when I were't nipper. After that everyone dispersed and got on with their lives for another year.

Why have we got so hysterical about it now?
:agree: There was no Outrage Industry in the 1960s.

harpo
11-11-2012, 10:47 AM
How incredibly patronising.

Why?

marinello59
11-11-2012, 10:55 AM
Why?

Just read your own post again.

harpo
11-11-2012, 11:26 AM
Just read your own post again.

Mmmmm what have i said wrong? Do you honesly believe the wars in the middle east are about democracy? After all didnt we originally go to war with iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction and nothing to do with democracy.

marinello59
11-11-2012, 12:03 PM
Mmmmm what have i said wrong? Do you honesly believe the wars in the middle east are about democracy? After all didnt we originally go to war with iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction and nothing to do with democracy.

Nowt to do with the content, everything to do with the patronising tone.

harpo
11-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Nowt to do with the content, everything to do with the patronising tone.

Invading foreign countries resulting in hundreds of thousands of casulties and claiming its all in the name of democracy....now that is what you call patronising.

HUTCHYHIBBY
11-11-2012, 12:49 PM
Perfectly observed minutes silence as expected.

(((Fergus)))
11-11-2012, 01:15 PM
I actually have pity for you and the many servicemen and women who have put their lives on the line fighting the wars in the middle east believing they are doing it in the name of democracy. In my opinion its got nothing to do with democracy but everything to do with power, oil and wealth.

'Poor working people in this country are sent to kill poor working people in another country to make the rich richer. if only the soilders realised they have more in common with the iraqi people than they do with the billionairs who send us to war'.....Not my words but the words are from ex us iraqi veteran Mike Prysner. Well worth a listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm3nYN8aG8&feature=related

Have you got any figures on how much we've made out of Iraq, Afghanistan - presumably we've broken even, but how much actual profit have we made?

Someone (Vini1875?) said that the government sends the troops to XYZ, therefore government should pick up the tab? Where does the government get its money from if not from if not from tax payers? Under the current arrangement, those who want to pay can do so, while those don't want to pay don't have to.

Of course you still have to contribute to the original military action, assuming you pay taxes.

Beefster
11-11-2012, 03:52 PM
Why?

Aside from the fact that I doubt anyone really needs your pity, you've implied that anyone who has served in Afghanistan/Iraq is stupid or has been duped in some way because they don't fit into your view of the world.

yeezus.
11-11-2012, 04:29 PM
Mmmmm what have i said wrong? Do you honesly believe the wars in the middle east are about democracy? After all didnt we originally go to war with iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction and nothing to do with democracy.

I don't like to hear that they were "fighting for us" - British troops weren't fighting for our freedom in Iraq or Ireland.

harpo
11-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Have you got any figures on how much we've made out of Iraq, Afghanistan - presumably we've broken even, but how much actual profit have we made?

Someone (Vini1875?) said that the government sends the troops to XYZ, therefore government should pick up the tab? Where does the government get its money from if not from if not from tax payers? Under the current arrangement, those who want to pay can do so, while those don't want to pay don't have to.

Of course you still have to contribute to the original military action, assuming you pay taxes.

We as a country dont profit from the wars, but its the powerful corporations who heavily influence goverments who make enormous profits.

Ok lets start with the one most people have heard of, Haliburton, they made a profit of $17.2 billion in the first 3 years of the iraqi war. did a quick search on google and came up with the 25 most profitable companies from the war.http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/

harpo
11-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I don't like to hear that they were "fighting for us" - British troops weren't fighting for our freedom in Iraq or Ireland.

Niether do I, but they do it in our name.

(((Fergus)))
12-11-2012, 02:53 PM
We as a country dont profit from the wars, but its the powerful corporations who heavily influence goverments who make enormous profits.

Ok lets start with the one most people have heard of, Haliburton, they made a profit of $17.2 billion in the first 3 years of the iraqi war. did a quick search on google and came up with the 25 most profitable companies from the war.http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/

Are you saying that the reason the British Labour Government committed troops to Iraq was the influence of (foreign) corporations such as Haliburton? In what form did they exercise this influence? Personal bribes?

yeezus.
12-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Niether do I, but they do it in our name.

:agree: unfortunately. A young Stranraer man was reported to the MoD by Lily Allen not so long ago - for racist abuse. Another (former friend of mine) said that if I don't like the troops I should leave the country.

This is a common line. Instead of people debating the British Army I keep getting told "go elsewhere if you don't like them" - what an incredibly cheap point to make.

Vini1875
12-11-2012, 09:14 PM
Are you saying that the reason the British Labour Government committed troops to Iraq was the influence of (foreign) corporations such as Haliburton? In what form did they exercise this influence? Personal bribes?

They can put pressure on the Americans who can in turn put pressure on the British Govt.

Sir David Gray
12-11-2012, 10:19 PM
I really fail to understand why this is continually made into such a big debate every single year.

No-one's saying that war is a good thing or that it's even necessary a lot of the time. That would be up to the politicians, who make the decisions to send countries to war, to answer for. No-one's saying that we need to respect the decision to go to war or agree with the merits of individual conflicts, again that's a completely different debate altogether.

That's NOT what Remembrance Day is about, it's not what the poppies are about and it's not what the silence is about either.

It's about remembering and honouring the ordinary young men and women who have gone to war for their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. OK so some people might argue that no-one made them join the armed forces that, of course, is undeniably true at least in Britain's case anyway. However this country is a lot safer and a lot more secure, thanks to the ordinary men and women who make up our armed forces and I, for one, am extremely grateful to them.

We would be in a far poorer state without them, that's for sure.

People should be free to decide for themselves if they want to wear a poppy to mark Remembrance Day, I don't think too many people would disagree with that and I don't agree with people who appear on TV being made to wear one. I think that's wrong.

However I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone would have any issue at all with holding a silence for a couple of minutes once a year to remember all those service men and women who have died whilst serving their country in war. I don't know why there's even a discussion about it.

Lucius Apuleius
13-11-2012, 09:54 AM
Think you will find that somone did make the majority of our war dead join up.

Also a little short sighted regarding Haliburton. First off, Haliburton have
Now since 2006/2007 if I remember correctly, had nothing to do with KBR who are actually the compny working for the US goverment in Iraq and Afghanistan. They provide services by civilians in war zones that frees up the military to do the jobs they are meant to do. The guys and gals doing these jobs are obviously non military and have no training as such. Obviously they are there voluntarily but in my opinion thoroughly deserve all the wages they get for doing so. I would also imagine that KBR costs include the caterers on the bases which in most cases are british personnel. KBR are without a doubt making money of the wars but not profiteering in my opinion, merely providing services required. Arms manufacturers however will make a lot more. As an aside, KBR was always ran as a seperate entity even when under the Haliburton umbrella. Cheyney's involvement was minimal. KBR staff have never been Cheney's biggest fans I can assure you. I include the current CEO in that. It should also be noted that KBR has a pretty large presence in the UK as well. Also that there involvement in assisting the military goes back way way before Cheney's time.

yeezus.
13-11-2012, 10:17 AM
I really fail to understand why this is continually made into such a big debate every single year.

No-one's saying that war is a good thing or that it's even necessary a lot of the time. That would be up to the politicians, who make the decisions to send countries to war, to answer for. No-one's saying that we need to respect the decision to go to war or agree with the merits of individual conflicts, again that's a completely different debate altogether.

That's NOT what Remembrance Day is about, it's not what the poppies are about and it's not what the silence is about either.

It's about remembering and honouring the ordinary young men and women who have gone to war for their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. OK so some people might argue that no-one made them join the armed forces that, of course, is undeniably true at least in Britain's case anyway. However this country is a lot safer and a lot more secure, thanks to the ordinary men and women who make up our armed forces and I, for one, am extremely grateful to them.

We would be in a far poorer state without them, that's for sure.

People should be free to decide for themselves if they want to wear a poppy to mark Remembrance Day, I don't think too many people would disagree with that and I don't agree with people who appear on TV being made to wear one. I think that's wrong.

However I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone would have any issue at all with holding a silence for a couple of minutes once a year to remember all those service men and women who have died whilst serving their country in war. I don't know why there's even a discussion about it.

It's because people always insist on saying they were "fighting for our freedom" - I have many friends from the north of Ireland who were harassed by the forces of the crown - so it's completely understandable that some people don't want to show respect for what we see as an army that has caused a lot of damage in Ireland especially

harpo
14-11-2012, 02:15 AM
Aside from the fact that I doubt anyone really needs your pity, you've implied that anyone who has served in Afghanistan/Iraq is stupid or has been duped in some way because they don't fit into your view of the world.

Im sorry i didnt mean to be patronising when I said I feel pity for the soilders. When I say pity I mean one of sorrow and sadness that young men are being killed and maimed because of the lies (like WMDs) that we were and still are being told by our goverment.

harpo
14-11-2012, 03:00 AM
Are you saying that the reason the British Labour Government committed troops to Iraq was the influence of (foreign) corporations such as Haliburton? In what form did they exercise this influence? Personal bribes?

What Im saying is that powerful corporations have close ties with individuals in goverments. and both do rather well when it comes to war profiteering.

The Bush administration did not too bad out of the Iraq war as you can see from this report http://www.salon.com/2008/05/29/spies_for_hire/

As did our own Tony Blair http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259030/Tony-Blairs-secret-dealings-South-Korean-oil-firm-UI-Energy-Corp.html

War Is a Racket is the title of two works, a speech and a booklet, by retired United States Marine Corps Major General and two time Medal of Honor recipient Smedley D. Butler. He says.....War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

TRC
14-11-2012, 05:52 AM
I understand the concept of the poppies and it is a just cause but when The British army sent men over for WW1 and WW2 there was no choice, people have a choice now they don't have to join no one forces them. so while I think it is a commendable and brave thing to do, should they be any more commended or remembered than doctors or nurses? Also when was the last time the army were defending our country? honest question because as far as I can see it was WW2.

HUTCHYHIBBY
14-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm sure the folk in The Malvinas oops Falklands would question that last post.

yeezus.
14-11-2012, 01:04 PM
I understand the concept of the poppies and it is a just cause but when The British army sent men over for WW1 and WW2 there was no choice, people have a choice now they don't have to join no one forces them. so while I think it is a commendable and brave thing to do, should they be any more commended or remembered than doctors or nurses? Also when was the last time the army were defending our country? honest question because as far as I can see it was WW2.

:agree: they weren't defending our country in Iraq, Ireland or Afghanistan.

Beefster
15-11-2012, 06:57 AM
:agree: they weren't defending our country in Iraq, Ireland or Afghanistan.

The UK wasn't a target for al Qaeda prior to the invasion of Afghanistan?

Hibs Class
15-11-2012, 07:45 AM
:agree: they weren't defending our country in Iraq, Ireland or Afghanistan.

Thought Ireland was part of or county?

marinello59
15-11-2012, 07:45 AM
I understand the concept of the poppies and it is a just cause but when The British army sent men over for WW1 and WW2 there was no choice, people have a choice now they don't have to join no one forces them. so while I think it is a commendable and brave thing to do, should they be any more commended or remembered than doctors or nurses? Also when was the last time the army were defending our country? honest question because as far as I can see it was WW2.

Are you pacifist then? Would you have stood by and let events in Kosovo continue on the course they were taking because it was not defending our shores?

Hibs Class
15-11-2012, 07:46 AM
:agree: they weren't defending our country in Iraq, Ireland or Afghanistan.

Thought Ireland was part of our country?

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 11:18 AM
Thought Ireland was part of our country?

Well that depends on your politics - it isn't by choice.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 11:24 AM
The UK wasn't a target for al Qaeda prior to the invasion of Afghanistan?

Even if the UK was a target, invasion wouldn't and hasn't helped any. The war crimes carried out by British Armed forces have made things worse.

marinello59
15-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Even if the UK was a target, invasion wouldn't and hasn't helped any. The war crimes carried out by British Armed forces have made things worse.

Do you know why we have troops in Afghanistan? I don't think you do.

CropleyWasGod
15-11-2012, 11:44 AM
Well that depends on your politics - it isn't by choice.

Really? When was the referendum?

Hibbyradge
15-11-2012, 11:46 AM
Well that depends on your politics - it isn't by choice.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, regardless of your politics.

As are the Falkland Islands.

Other countries may want them, but currently they're ours and their citizens have a right to defence from the British Army.

Beefster
15-11-2012, 12:55 PM
Even if the UK was a target, invasion wouldn't and hasn't helped any. The war crimes carried out by British Armed forces have made things worse.

In what way did the invasion of Afghanistan not make the blindest bit of difference to al Qaeda's capability to strike the UK or its allies? How would you have dealt with al Qaeda and the government that was harbouring them (I.e. the Afghan Taliban)?

Edit: I was about to compare you to andrewmckay until I realised you've just changed your username. I understand why your views are generally bonkers now.

TRC
15-11-2012, 04:45 PM
Are you pacifist then? Would you have stood by and let events in Kosovo continue on the course they were taking because it was not defending our shores?

Not a pacifist no, just don't really see the need to be in countries that have no issue with us. If and when there is a risk to our country then by all means we should be defending the country. As for places like Iraq etc we have no reason to be there. Most of the so called bad men are put in power by our government and the Americans of course. But still the poppy issue is one that many people support and rightly so. I do believe that modern warfare has no comparison to by gone wars, in that they are fought for very different reasons.

harpo
15-11-2012, 05:53 PM
The UK wasn't a target for al Qaeda prior to the invasion of Afghanistan?

When the UK invaded Afghanistan in 2001 al qaeda had never attacked the UK. Infact 7/7 is allegedlly the only time they have. I'll go one further and say Al Qaeda have never existed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mztfFdpd1Rk

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, regardless of your politics.

As are the Falkland Islands.

Other countries may want them, but currently they're ours and their citizens have a right to defence from the British Army.

I will always consider the 6 counties part of Ireland.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:09 PM
Really? When was the referendum?

I'm referring to the British partition of the island, and the built in unionist majority in 6 out of the 9 counties of Ulster.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:10 PM
In what way did the invasion of Afghanistan not make the blindest bit of difference to al Qaeda's capability to strike the UK or its allies? How would you have dealt with al Qaeda and the government that was harbouring them (I.e. the Afghan Taliban)?

Edit: I was about to compare you to andrewmckay until I realised you've just changed your username. I understand why your views are generally bonkers now.

Yeah I changed my username a while back although I was pissed up most of the time I was at university so that might explain the bull***** posts on Georg Galloway. To me, the view that you can invade and occupy a country in the manner we have in Afghanistan is bonkers.

Incidents like when the Coldstream guards murdered civillians in Kabul are inevitably going to turn people against the British occupying forces. There is not one shred of evidence that British occupation has helped matters any in Afghanistan.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:17 PM
Do you know why we have troops in Afghanistan? I don't think you do.

It was triggered by the 9/11 attacks. Of course, we are often led to believe that we are in Afghanistan to keep us safe here in Britain.

Hibbyradge
15-11-2012, 06:18 PM
I will always consider the 6 counties part of Ireland.

You might as well consider France as part of Cornwall.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:20 PM
You might as well consider France as part of Cornwall.

:dizzy:

Skanko79
15-11-2012, 06:51 PM
why was my post deleted? just saying the rubbish thats being spouted in this thread is a complete joke. how is that not contributing?

i really fear the worst when i think of perhaps a scenario where someone new moves to this city and decides to start supporting one of the local teams, decides to do a bit of research and has a wee swatch at this forum and reads threads like this.

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 06:52 PM
why was my post deleted? just saying the rubbish thats being spouted in this thread is a complete joke. how is that not contributing?

i really fear the worst when i think of perhaps a scenario where someone new moves to this city and decides to start supporting one of the local teams, decides to do a bit of research and has a wee swatch at this forum and reads threads like this.

I don't think those people would look on a thread titled "Lest we forget..."....

Skanko79
15-11-2012, 07:03 PM
I don't think those people would look on a thread titled "Lest we forget..."....

are you for real when you say you dont agree with the silence being held at easter road?

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 07:05 PM
are you for real when you say you dont agree with the silence being held at easter road?

I don't agree with a minutes silence at any ground - but I would never interrupt one.

Skanko79
15-11-2012, 07:18 PM
I don't agree with a minutes silence at any ground - but I would never interrupt one.

any particular reason why no? ive read the thread and you dont go into it much, it it the particular minutes silence for rememberance sunday thats your no keen on?

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 07:24 PM
any particular reason why no? ive read the thread and you dont go into it much, it it the particular minutes silence for rememberance sunday thats your no keen on?

I have a few good friends who were harassed by the British Army in the north of Ireland. The British policy in Ireland from 1969 onwards resulted in the deaths of people like Martha Campbell, Aidan McAnespie and Carol Ann Kelly.

Like I say, I wouldn't go out of my way to interrupt a minute of silence but the British Army has been a defender of freedom in years..

Skanko79
15-11-2012, 07:43 PM
I have a few good friends who were harassed by the British Army in the north of Ireland. The British policy in Ireland from 1969 onwards resulted in the deaths of people like Martha Campbell, Aidan McAnespie and Carol Ann Kelly.

Like I say, I wouldn't go out of my way to interrupt a minute of silence but the British Army has been a defender of freedom in years..

so whats that got to do with remembering the men and women (probably relations to you) that fought and died for thier country during world war 1&2 (and any other war for that matter)? a silence thats respected at every football ground in the UK on remembrance weekend? why could you possibly not agree with having a minutes silence for that?

yeezus.
15-11-2012, 09:40 PM
so whats that got to do with remembering the men and women (probably relations to you) that fought and died for thier country during world war 1&2 (and any other war for that matter)? a silence thats respected at every football ground in the UK on remembrance weekend? why could you possibly not agree with having a minutes silence for that?

The rememberance service is a rememberance of British Armed forces, run by the British Legion and doesn't take into consideration their many victims - some of whom I know personally.

marinello59
15-11-2012, 11:31 PM
The rememberance service is a rememberance of British Armed forces, run by the British Legion and doesn't take into consideration their many victims - some of whom I know personally.

OK.:rolleyes:

Beefster
16-11-2012, 09:25 AM
When the UK invaded Afghanistan in 2001 al qaeda had never attacked the UK. Infact 7/7 is allegedlly the only time they have. I'll go one further and say Al Qaeda have never existed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mztfFdpd1Rk

Al Qaeda existed a while before they were a threat to the US/West. In fact, the US probably funded them during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I'd recommend Ghost Wars by Steve Coll as a good read.

Skanko79
16-11-2012, 10:08 AM
The rememberance service is a rememberance of British Armed forces, run by the British Legion and doesn't take into consideration their many victims - some of whom I know personally.

ive read some tripe on here over the years mate but that statement really has to be the worst. you sound like one of those deluded bandwagon jumping celtic fans.

yeezus.
16-11-2012, 10:17 AM
ive read some tripe on here over the years mate but that statement really has to be the worst. you sound like one of those deluded bandwagon jumping celtic fans.

Believe what you want but I have given my reasons.

JimBHibees
16-11-2012, 11:58 AM
Cannon as in big gun, or Canon as in Hannan? :wink:

I wear a poppy, and I contribute to the fund gladly. My generation was the first in my family in the 20th century NOT to have to go to war, largely because my father's and grandfather's generations DID.

Too many people forget that THEY have the freedom to have tender consciences about whether to wear a poppy, what colour it should be, how much to out in the tin, and so on, because the men of my father's generation stepped up to resist Hitler and his allies - and many paid a very high price for doing so.

We all want to be defended; some of us are too quick to condemn our defenders after the event.

I have a Remembrance service tomorrow in the Caldera. Anyone and everyone prepared to conduct himself or herself in a courteous and respectful manner is welcome to join me - the door isn't closed on anyone.

The world we live in, we need to be defended - that means we need armed forces. And those who serve in our armed forces at risk of life and limb are entitled to our respect and care when they return to civilian life. Poppy Scotland works towards that aim, and they get my full support every year.

Fantastic post. Can remember my mum describing how my late Grandad (her dad) would be sitting watching the Remembrance Sunday event on tv in floods of tears each year. Given he was at the Somme it isn't difficult to know why.