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DaveF
22-09-2012, 07:06 PM
To anyone who kills the maker of this film which apparently insults Islam.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19687386

According to that, he's even suggested the Taliban would be paid if they carried out the killing.

Perhaps a rich christian extremist will stick a 200,000 bounty on this guy's head and offer it to the Taliban when delivered :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
23-09-2012, 04:58 PM
Saw this nutcase on the news:

What was going through his mind? 'Lets see, how can I best go about making the rest of the world think that the country I come from is populated by a bunch of backward mindless savages?

It appears to me that what it in fact was, was a shameless attempt to pander to the uneducated masses .. no doubt the guy will be running for president soon.

Phil D. Rolls
27-09-2012, 06:47 AM
Looks like it's no Picnic in Pakistan just now!

Dinkydoo
27-09-2012, 07:07 AM
Whilst I haven't seen the video, I sometimes wonder what the motive is of people who create these sorts of videos, dub them in Arabic and upload them onto YouTube......

Not that I can in anyway justify placing a 'public bounty' on someone's head, but what do people expect when they publicly make fun at Islam and subsequently poke the Middle East with a giant stick.

Surely people know by now that there is a significant amount of people living within these countries that hold extreme religious views - so lets try to avoid ripping the piss out of them. :rolleyes:

Dinkydoo
27-09-2012, 07:11 AM
Just watched the first couple of minutes of the video and I can understand why some people would be offended; it's pretty cringeworthy.

Phil D. Rolls
27-09-2012, 09:26 AM
Whilst I haven't seen the video, I sometimes wonder what the motive is of people who create these sorts of videos, dub them in Arabic and upload them onto YouTube......

Not that I can in anyway justify placing a 'public bounty' on someone's head, but what do people expect when they publicly make fun at Islam and subsequently poke the Middle East with a giant stick.

Surely people know by now that there is a significant amount of people living within these countries that hold extreme religious views - so lets try to avoid ripping the piss out of them. :rolleyes:

Is it a deliberate tactic to stir up unrest, de-stabalise an unfriendly regime, and give you an excuse to send in troops to "help out"? Also, if you were going to fight a big war against, say, Iran, it would be very helpful if likely allies had their own problems to deal with at home.

Betty Boop
27-09-2012, 06:21 PM
Is it a deliberate tactic to stir up unrest, de-stabalise an unfriendly regime, and give you an excuse to send in troops to "help out"? Also, if you were going to fight a big war against, say, Iran, it would be very helpful if likely allies had their own problems to deal with at home.

Speaking of Iran, I've just listened to Netanyahu's speech at the UN. One brief mention of the Palestinians, and the rest dominated by threatening Iran. He is determined that a 'clear red line' must be set, in other words a unilateral strike.

VickMackie
27-09-2012, 08:21 PM
The Taliban aren't planning on killing him anymore. Every cloud!

(((Fergus)))
27-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Whilst I haven't seen the video, I sometimes wonder what the motive is of people who create these sorts of videos, dub them in Arabic and upload them onto YouTube......

Not that I can in anyway justify placing a 'public bounty' on someone's head, but what do people expect when they publicly make fun at Islam and subsequently poke the Middle East with a giant stick.

Surely people know by now that there is a significant amount of people living within these countries that hold extreme religious views - so lets try to avoid ripping the piss out of them. :rolleyes:

The guy who made that film is an Egyptian Coptic Christian. They are the "original" Egyptians from before the Muslim conquest and today account for about 10-15% of the population. Copts are widely discriminated against by the Egyptian establishment and in some ways more violently by muslim extremists to the point of murder, torture, abduction and forced conversions of women, destruction of property, robbery and extortion of an unofficial "jizya" tax. The police generally turn a blind eye to these attacks and abuses. If a woman who is forcibly converted escapes from her muslim "husband", she cannot officially become a Christian again as conversion from Islam is against the law. Amid all that, it is practically impossible to build a new church in Egypt. More here: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33483

Maybe this guy was a bit sick of having the piss - and everything else - ripped out of *his* community in Egypt? Why should this particular Egyptian be expected to bite his lip in the face of all the abuse they have suffered with barely a word said about it in the western media never mind the arabic one, while certain other Egyptians are not? Purely because the latter habitually resort to violence and the cowardly and naive cave in.

joe breezy
27-09-2012, 10:34 PM
Britain's imperialism was an absolute disaster for the country.

There was no need to ever have anything to do with these nutters.

Betty Boop
27-09-2012, 10:38 PM
The guy who made that film is an Egyptian Coptic Christian. They are the "original" Egyptians from before the Muslim conquest and today account for about 10-15% of the population. Copts are widely discriminated against by the Egyptian establishment and in some ways more violently by muslim extremists to the point of murder, torture, abduction and forced conversions of women, destruction of property, robbery and extortion of an unofficial "jizya" tax. The police generally turn a blind eye to these attacks and abuses. If a woman who is forcibly converted escapes from her muslim "husband", she cannot officially become a Christian again as conversion from Islam is against the law. Amid all that, it is practically impossible to build a new church in Egypt. More here: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33483

Maybe this guy was a bit sick of having the piss - and everything else - ripped out of *his* community in Egypt? Why should this particular Egyptian be expected to bite his lip in the face of all the abuse they have suffered with barely a word said about it in the western media never mind the arabic one, while certain other Egyptians are not? Purely because the latter habitually resort to violence and the cowardly and naive cave in.

You are being a bit econimical with the truth Fergus. Nakoulah Bassely Nakoula is indeed a Coptic Christian, who tried to pass himself off as an Israeli American, in an interview with the Associated Press. He is also a convicted fraudster, and drug dealer who has recently been released after serving a prison sentence. I doubt he was concerned about the discrimination of Copts in Egypt.

Sir David Gray
27-09-2012, 10:56 PM
No doubt this bounty will be backed by millions of like minded people in Pakistan and all across the globe.

It really is a religion of peace though...honest! :aok:

Sir David Gray
27-09-2012, 11:37 PM
Speaking of Iran, I've just listened to Netanyahu's speech at the UN. One brief mention of the Palestinians, and the rest dominated by threatening Iran. He is determined that a 'clear red line' must be set, in other words a unilateral strike.

How would you behave towards a country whose leader has made it perfectly clear the fact that they want your country completely obliterated and is hell bent on your nation's destruction?

Given the circumstances, I think Benjamin Netanyahu's speech was actually quite restrained.

Big Ed
28-09-2012, 05:53 AM
No doubt this bounty will be backed by millions of like minded people in Pakistan and all across the globe.

It really is a religion of peace though...honest! :aok:

I'm not sure that it's a good idea to single out Islam as a religion of violence in isolation. Bush and Blair, both of whom wear their Christianity on their sleeves, sent their troops into an Islamic country and blasted the place to bits.

Phil D. Rolls
28-09-2012, 08:30 AM
The guy who made that film is an Egyptian Coptic Christian. They are the "original" Egyptians from before the Muslim conquest and today account for about 10-15% of the population. Copts are widely discriminated against by the Egyptian establishment and in some ways more violently by muslim extremists to the point of murder, torture, abduction and forced conversions of women, destruction of property, robbery and extortion of an unofficial "jizya" tax. The police generally turn a blind eye to these attacks and abuses. If a woman who is forcibly converted escapes from her muslim "husband", she cannot officially become a Christian again as conversion from Islam is against the law. Amid all that, it is practically impossible to build a new church in Egypt. More here: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33483

Maybe this guy was a bit sick of having the piss - and everything else - ripped out of *his* community in Egypt? Why should this particular Egyptian be expected to bite his lip in the face of all the abuse they have suffered with barely a word said about it in the western media never mind the arabic one, while certain other Egyptians are not? Purely because the latter habitually resort to violence and the cowardly and naive cave in.

Given that he professes to be a christian, surely he should turn the other cheeK?

Kato
28-09-2012, 09:45 AM
Given that he professes to be a christian, surely he should turn the other cheeK?


Which tells us he's not a Christian.

Dinkydoo
28-09-2012, 12:25 PM
You are being a bit econimical with the truth Fergus. Nakoulah Bassely Nakoula is indeed a Coptic Christian, who tried to pass himself off as an Israeli American, in an interview with the Associated Press. He is also a convicted fraudster, and drug dealer who has recently been released after serving a prison sentence. I doubt he was concerned about the discrimination of Copts in Egypt.

Thanks for that BB; I have to admit that I had no idea who Nakoulah Bassely Nakoula was.

As for the question posed by Fergus:


Maybe this guy was a bit sick of having the piss - and everything else - ripped out of *his* community in Egypt? Why should this particular Egyptian be expected to bite his lip in the face of all the abuse they have suffered with barely a word said about it in the western media never mind the arabic one, while certain other Egyptians are not? Purely because the latter habitually resort to violence and the cowardly and naive cave in.

I guess that 'this particular Egyptian' could do something a little more constructive than creating an inflamitory video and posting it on the internet. It's a great way to get publicity, but probably not the sort of publicity that will do the cause you infer he is fighting for much good IMO.

Betty Boop
28-09-2012, 01:11 PM
How would you behave towards a country whose leader has made it perfectly clear the fact that they want your country completely obliterated and is hell bent on your nation's destruction?

Given the circumstances, I think Benjamin Netanyahu's speech was actually quite restrained.

The hypocrisy of Nuttyahoo is staggering. Giving a speech in front of the UNGA, with a cartoon of a bomb, when his country has 200 nuclear warheads that they won't even admit to possessing, is ridiculous. Why don't they sign up to the Non-Proliferation Treaty ?

(((Fergus)))
03-10-2012, 06:28 PM
You are being a bit econimical with the truth Fergus. Nakoulah Bassely Nakoula is indeed a Coptic Christian, who tried to pass himself off as an Israeli American, in an interview with the Associated Press. He is also a convicted fraudster, and drug dealer who has recently been released after serving a prison sentence. I doubt he was concerned about the discrimination of Copts in Egypt.

Am I really? How does this guy's criminal record have a bearing on whether or not he wanted to 'get it right up' the Muslims who continue to torment the Copts (and other groups) of Egypt? What motive, other than bloody-mindedness, would he have in making that film? What makes you doubt that he is concerned about the discrimination against Copts in Egypt? What do you base that on?

Secondly, the main point of my post was: why is it acceptable for members of certain religious sects in Egypt to abuse members of certain others - in infinitely worse ways, to the point of murder - but if the boot is on the other foot (purely symbolically, of course) then all hell breaks loose and even the President of the United States feels compelled to condemn it to the world?

(((Fergus)))
03-10-2012, 07:04 PM
Thanks for that BB; I have to admit that I had no idea who Nakoulah Bassely Nakoula was.

As for the question posed by Fergus:



I guess that 'this particular Egyptian' could do something a little more constructive than creating an inflamitory video and posting it on the internet. It's a great way to get publicity, but probably not the sort of publicity that will do the cause you infer he is fighting for much good IMO.

I'm not inferring that was his motive, merely suggesting it may be a possibility.

I did consider that, were that his motive, it would not do his cause much good, however if his cause is to counter the violent intolerance of certain sections of Muslim societies then exposing that violent intolerance may be a step towards his goal.

As a result of his film, we now have a government minister of a supposed allied nation offering to pay for the murder of a US citizen. While some dismiss this minister as a nut, he is still in his post today. Imagine if a UK cabinet minister publicly offered to pay for the murder of a foreign national because of some insult, however extreme. How long would he/she stay in his/her job, never mind out of jail? In Pakistan, at least, it is merely a matter of personal opinion.

Betty Boop
06-10-2012, 01:06 PM
Am I really? How does this guy's criminal record have a bearing on whether or not he wanted to 'get it right up' the Muslims who continue to torment the Copts (and other groups) of Egypt? What motive, other than bloody-mindedness, would he have in making that film? What makes you doubt that he is concerned about the discrimination against Copts in Egypt? What do you base that on?

Secondly, the main point of my post was: why is it acceptable for members of certain religious sects in Egypt to abuse members of certain others - in infinitely worse ways, to the point of murder - but if the boot is on the other foot (purely symbolically, of course) then all hell breaks loose and even the President of the United States feels compelled to condemn it to the world?

Why would making an Islamaphobic hate video, help the plight of his fellow Copts in Egypt ?

Dinkydoo
06-10-2012, 02:55 PM
I'm not inferring that was his motive, merely suggesting it may be a possibility.

I did consider that, were that his motive, it would not do his cause much good, however if his cause is to counter the violent intolerance of certain sections of Muslim societies then exposing that violent intolerance may be a step towards his goal.

As a result of his film, we now have a government minister of a supposed allied nation offering to pay for the murder of a US citizen. While some dismiss this minister as a nut, he is still in his post today. Imagine if a UK cabinet minister publicly offered to pay for the murder of a foreign national because of some insult, however extreme. How long would he/she stay in his/her job, never mind out of jail? In Pakistan, at least, it is merely a matter of personal opinion.

You are correct; it may be a step towards achieving the potential goal of countering intolerance shown by certain sections of Muslim society - the first step being exposure. For what it's worth I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to express their right of freedom of speech, even if that is through a potentially offensive video on the Internet. Rather that I'm a little suspicious of the motives behind such actions - is it really for a good cause, or is it purely to stir up more middle-eastern controversy for another reason?

Offering to pay for the murder of another human being is of course unacceptable, regardless of your race, position of employment or religion. However such a public reaction doesn't surprise me, and I'm not sure of whether the videos creator would be entirely surprised either - unless he's been living in a cave somewhere for the past 12 years (no pun intended).

heretoday
06-10-2012, 03:57 PM
My goodness they're a thin-skinned lot the Muslims.

Big Ed
06-10-2012, 06:44 PM
My goodness they're a thin-skinned lot the Muslims.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate?

LeighLoyal
09-10-2012, 12:16 PM
If there is any truth to Islam why do these hotheads, like this mentally ill minister, have to do Allah's work and murder infidels and blasphemers? Surely bolts of lightening should consume anyone who insults the prophet? Oh wait, he lied and the Koran is made up. The only cure for Islam, the perfect marriage of the blood soaked sword with blind faith, is intelligence.

Big Ed
09-10-2012, 12:58 PM
If there is any truth to Islam why do these hotheads, like this mentally ill minister, have to do Allah's work and murder infidels and blasphemers? Surely bolts of lightening should consume anyone who insults the prophet? Oh wait, he lied and the Koran is made up. The only cure for Islam, the perfect marriage of the blood soaked sword with blind faith, is intelligence.

Do you seriously want to get into a debate about far fetched narrative in Holy Testaments? I'd rather not because it's tedious: but I will if you insist.

There are estimated to be 1 billion Muslims on the planet: the fact that they are not all in a perpetual state of jihad should tell you something.

LeighLoyal
09-10-2012, 01:40 PM
Do you seriously want to get into a debate about far fetched narrative in Holy Testaments? I'd rather not because it's tedious: but I will if you insist.

There are estimated to be 1 billion Muslims on the planet: the fact that they are not all in a perpetual state of jihad should tell you something.


The bible, an equally unauthoritative work as they all are. But at least JC, if he existed, did not reward murder in heaven, there is your difference. Rule number 1: thou shalt not kill. Islam does not recongnise this basic rule for non beleivers. If it had it would never have got out of Medina. I am an atheist of course, but anyone who takes the preposterous claims of Mohammed as the verbatim word of a creator... In words of the late Christopher Hitchens: 'If I'm to beleive the Qu'ran is the word of God... then it was a very bad day for God.'

DaveF
09-10-2012, 03:55 PM
The bible, an equally unauthoritative work as they all are. But at least JC, if he existed, did not reward murder in heaven, there is your difference. Rule number 1: thou shalt not kill. Islam does not recongnise this basic rule for non beleivers. If it had it would never have got out of Medina. I am an atheist of course, but anyone who takes the preposterous claims of Mohammed as the verbatim word of a creator... In words of the late Christopher Hitchens: 'If I'm to beleive the Qu'ran is the word of God... then it was a very bad day for God.'

I'm probably out of my depth here, but pretty sure moderate muslim leaders who are interviewed always maintain that Islam and the Koran is all about peace. The bonkers element just interpret sections for their own agenda. You could probably make the same statement about moderate and crazy Christians reading parts of the bible in different ways.

LeighLoyal
09-10-2012, 04:16 PM
I'm probably out of my depth here, but pretty sure moderate muslim leaders who are interviewed always maintain that Islam and the Koran is all about peace. The bonkers element just interpret sections for their own agenda. You could probably make the same statement about moderate and crazy Christians reading parts of the bible in different ways.



Mate, I'm an atheist but last time I checked JC was a peace and love hippy whose most heinous crime was to push over a few tables in a Jewish temple. There are no quotes attributed to him in the gospels rewarding murder with heavenly rewards. so stop making excuses for Islam if you don't have the facts. Maybe evangelicals are pretty 'crazy' but they don't murder anyone in their religion's name or expect rewards for doing so. And any 'moderate' Muslim is not a Muslim in terms of Mohammed's example, that's why the terrorist path, aka Jihad, has such easy traction amongst them.

DaveF
09-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Mate, I'm an atheist but last time I checked JC was a peace and love hippy whose most heinous crime was to push over a few tables in a Jewish temple. There are no quotes attributed to him in the gospels rewarding murder with heavenly rewards. so stop making excuses for Islam if you don't have the facts. Maybe evangelicals are pretty 'crazy' but they don't murder anyone in their religion's name or expect rewards for doing so. And any 'moderate' Muslim is not a Muslim in terms of Mohammed's example, that's why the terrorist path, aka Jihad, has such easy traction amongst them.

Right, well that's me told then :greengrin

I've no interest at all in Religion - Don't even know why I posted :greengrin

Betty Boop
09-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Mate, I'm an atheist but last time I checked JC was a peace and love hippy whose most heinous crime was to push over a few tables in a Jewish temple. There are no quotes attributed to him in the gospels rewarding murder with heavenly rewards. so stop making excuses for Islam if you don't have the facts. Maybe evangelicals are pretty 'crazy' but they don't murder anyone in their religion's name or expect rewards for doing so. And any 'moderate' Muslim is not a Muslim in terms of Mohammed's example, that's why the terrorist path, aka Jihad, has such easy traction amongst them.


Quite a statement to make, 'any moderate Muslim is not a Muslim'. Where did you get your facts ? The EDL manifesto ?

Big Ed
09-10-2012, 09:54 PM
The bible, an equally unauthoritative work as they all are. But at least JC, if he existed, did not reward murder in heaven, there is your difference. Rule number 1: thou shalt not kill. Islam does not recongnise this basic rule for non beleivers. If it had it would never have got out of Medina. I am an atheist of course, but anyone who takes the preposterous claims of Mohammed as the verbatim word of a creator... In words of the late Christopher Hitchens: 'If I'm to beleive the Qu'ran is the word of God... then it was a very bad day for God.'

It is martyrs who are rewarded in Heaven, not murderers: the distinction is blurred when Evil Men convince others that their martyrdom is confirmed by strapping a bomb to their waist and getting on a packed bus.
Even if it were true: do you think that the sole motivation for suicide bombings is the prospect of an eternal orgy?
Oh and another thing: if you are going to get all righteous about people advocating death on a massive scale, maybe best not quoting Christopher ****ing Hitchens.

LeighLoyal
10-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Quite a statement to make, 'any moderate Muslim is not a Muslim'. Where did you get your facts ? The EDL manifesto ?



In terms of Mohammed's example: "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of infidels...and fight them until fitnah (resistance to Allah) is no more, and religion is for Allah." Not out of the EDL manifesto, but the Quran (2:191-193). Islam itself means submission, so leaves little room for debate.

Did the EDL also fabriacte this Pakistan government minister's $100k bounty for the murder of a filmaker? These pesky EDL, eh? If only they'd go away we'd no have no worries. :rolleyes:

Betty Boop
10-10-2012, 07:43 PM
In terms of Mohammed's example: "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of infidels...and fight them until fitnah (resistance to Allah) is no more, and religion is for Allah." Not out of the EDL manifesto, but the Quran (2:191-193). Islam itself means submission, so leaves little room for debate.

Did the EDL also fabriacte this Pakistan government minister's $100k bounty for the murder of a filmaker? These pesky EDL, eh? If only they'd go away we'd no have no worries. :rolleyes:


Ah, its just the Quran that contains violent passages then. You have obviously never read any passages from the Old Testament ot the Torah.

hibsbollah
10-10-2012, 09:03 PM
In terms of Mohammed's example: "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of infidels...and fight them until fitnah (resistance to Allah) is no more, and religion is for Allah." Not out of the EDL manifesto, but the Quran (2:191-193). Islam itself means submission, so leaves little room for debate.

Did the EDL also fabriacte this Pakistan government minister's $100k bounty for the murder of a filmaker? These pesky EDL, eh? If only they'd go away we'd no have no worries. :rolleyes:

Twaddle.

Your evidence of the badness of Islam is five qur'anic sentences? :aok: :hilarious

I decided to read the Qur'an shortly after 9/11, and I've read bits of the bible at various times. I can tell you there is NO substantive difference between the two books regarding the morality or propensity to murder infidels. It's a ****ing Good Housekeeping guide for living in the desert, essentially. Tells you not to eat rock badgers and unwashed seafood. **** as many wives as you like, but stay away from cousins. That sort of thing. Your quote proves nothing, aside from the fact that ALL scripture uses metaphors to demonstrate spiritual truth, as does the bible. 'drive out', 'slaughter' 'destroy' in scripture terms, is almost always allegorical. It's in the interest of people who peddle religious and racial prejudice to pretend it isn't, though.

The OP story is about politics. The Pakistani Govt minister gets away with saying this because he represents a backward, uneducated, rural backwater that is politically and economically powerless. The same statement would emerge from a Christian country in the same circumstances.

steakbake
10-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Islam hasn't had the relative benefits of a reformation as such, but there are many sects within Islam offering a wide range of interpretations on what marks the right path. The Islam of Turkey, Lebanon, most of central Asia is very different to the hard line Islam of the tribal regions of Pakistan/Afghanistan and other locations. Some aspects of Islam has also contributed to science, mathematics and geometry. Yet the chair of the senate committee on Science in the US believes the earth is 6,000 years old and was created in 6 days.

Fundamentalist Christians do kill people: why are family planning doctors and stem cell researchers under armed guard in some parts of the states?

If you want to get literal about it:


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

I'm not here to defend Muslims who cause suffering or are violent, but I think there's a lot more at foot and far bigger issues to consider than an Us vs Them mentality, based on basic ignorance.

LeighLoyal
10-10-2012, 10:45 PM
Islam hasn't had the relative benefits of a reformation as such, but there are many sects within Islam offering a wide range of interpretations on what marks the right path. The Islam of Turkey, Lebanon, most of central Asia is very different to the hard line Islam of the tribal regions of Pakistan/Afghanistan and other locations. Some aspects of Islam has also contributed to science, mathematics and geometry. Yet the chair of the senate committee on Science in the US believes the earth is 6,000 years old and was created in 6 days.

Fundamentalist Christians do kill people: why are family planning doctors and stem cell researchers under armed guard in some parts of the states?

If you want to get literal about it:


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

I'm not here to defend Muslims who cause suffering or are violent, but I think there's a lot more at foot and far bigger issues to consider than an Us vs Them mentality, based on basic ignorance.


None of these Old Testament quotes are attributed to JC. The Old Testament is an ancient curio, but of course the fact JC supported its content is damning. The reformation also is a complete red herring when discussing progressiveness in Christianity. The reformation may have opened freedoms, but it also provided us with hard line puritanical belief: the literal acceptance of every word of both testaments as the unshakeable word of god, among them the evangelicals you mention killing abortionists. I'd also challenge the notion that Islam was responsible for any science. If so, should we credit the Papacy for the work of Marconi and Fermi in Italy in the previous century? It was Islam that burned down the library in Alexandria for being un-Islamic. No, any progress there is surely in spite of Islam, not because of it. As far as Turkey being more secular, the Islamist leaning AKP party is in power there and threatening the secularists. The only thing holding them back from repressing human rights is their EU membership hopes. Still, it's the only truly democratic Islamic state. And to state that critique of Islam for its almost daily woes and atrocities across the globe is based on 'basic ignorance'. Oh dear. If Hitler has claimed god had dictated Mein Kampf to him in prison it would make it a holy book worthy of respect? Only if Hitler had had some colour pigmentation I'll assume.

steakbake
10-10-2012, 10:56 PM
None of these Old Testament quotes are attributed to JC. The Old Testament is an ancient curio, but of course the fact JC supported its content is damning. The reformation also is a complete red herring when discussing progressiveness in Christianity. The reformation may have opened freedoms, but it also provided us with hard line puritanical belief: the literal acceptance of every word of both testaments as the unshakeable word of god, among them the evangelicals you mention killing abortionists. I'd also challenge the notion that Islam was responsible for any science. If so, should we credit the Papacy for the work of Marconi and Fermi in Italy in the previous century? It was Islam that burned down the library in Alexandria for being un-Islamic. No, any progress there is surely in spite of Islam, not because of it. As far as Turkey being more secular, the Islamist Welfare party is in power there and threatening the secularists. The only thing holding them back from repressing human rights is their EU membership hopes. Still, it's the only truly democratic Islamic state. And to state that critique of Islam for its almost daily woes and atrocities across the globe is based on 'basic ignorance'. Oh dear. If Hitler has claimed god had dictated Mein Kampf to him in prison it would make it a holy book worthy of respect? Only if Hitler had had some colour pigmentation I'll assume.

Classic Internet debate: somewhere Hitler always emerges. Redactio ad hitlerum.

As for scientific Islam: clearly you know very little of which you clearly have strong opinions. Look up Alhazen, Alghazali and Al-Qarismi.

LeighLoyal
10-10-2012, 11:06 PM
Classic Internet debate: somewhere Hitler always emerges. Redactio ad hitlerum.

As for scientific Islam: clearly you know very little of which you clearly have strong opinions. Look up Alhazen, Alghazali and Al-Qarismi.



Mate, you Google these names and now use them to demonstrate what exactly? As I said, are we to credit the Papacy with Marconi and Fermi, etc...? Any roads, they are fairly minor names when compared to the titans of Western science and learning. Very minor.

steakbake
11-10-2012, 04:43 AM
Mate, you Google these names and now use them to demonstrate what exactly? As I said, are we to credit the Papacy with Marconi and Fermi, etc...? Any roads, they are fairly minor names when compared to the titans of Western science and learning. Very minor.

Well, to demonstrate that by the 11th century, Islamic scholars had contributed significantly to fundamental scientific knowledge in the fields of anatomy, astronomy, geography, mapping techniques, Maths etc. Algebra, for example, essential in science was elaborated in the way it's used now by Al Qarismi in the 8th century. Linked to Islam because they were early scholars like Aquinas etc who were clerics of their religion, nor just a follower of it but theologians, missionaries, scripture writers, patrons/figureheads etc.

The Catholic Church can't take the credit for Marconi because as far as I know, he wasn't a theologian or cleric of the church, was he? And that Church's relationship with science generally is suspect at best.

I know you're not really interested because your position is less complicated and easy to back up with dodgy Hitler analogies, so I'm out of this discussion from now.

Back on topic: this guy has, through announcing this bounty, had the one he had placed on his head by the Taliban in Swat Valley, lifted. Think this is more about self preservation than anything more genuine. A cynical politician is a cynical politician in any culture.

LeighLoyal
11-10-2012, 11:59 AM
Well, to demonstrate that by the 11th century, Islamic scholars had contributed significantly to fundamental scientific knowledge in the fields of anatomy, astronomy, geography, mapping techniques, Maths etc. Algebra, for example, essential in science was elaborated in the way it's used now by Al Qarismi in the 8th century. Linked to Islam because they were early scholars like Aquinas etc who were clerics of their religion, nor just a follower of it but theologians, missionaries, scripture writers, patrons/figureheads etc.

The Catholic Church can't take the credit for Marconi because as far as I know, he wasn't a theologian or cleric of the church, was he? And that Church's relationship with science generally is suspect at best.

I know you're not really interested because your position is less complicated and easy to back up with dodgy Hitler analogies, so I'm out of this discussion from now.

Back on topic: this guy has, through announcing this bounty, had the one he had placed on his head by the Taliban in Swat Valley, lifted. Think this is more about self preservation than anything more genuine. A cynical politician is a cynical politician in any culture.



Good choice of words. The mathematical discipline known as Algebra was furthered, but not invented, by "Islamic scholars", and incidentally these men were Berber North Africans, not Arabs, whose ancestors were converted by the sword. The Alexandrian Greek Diophantus laid the ground work for Algebra. An inhabitant of the same city that's famous library was burned down for being un-islamic. Quite amazed you choose to credit Islam with secular learning because the individuals involved were also theological thinkers. On that logic we can assign the works of Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, for example, to the church given their deeply held convictions.

The Hitler analogy is a valid one. The Qu'ran is a spiritual Mein Kampf and equally anti Semitic. It merges the concept of Judeo-Christian spiritual faith with violence - that is it's only true revelation. Mohammed was a tyrant just like Hitler. He ordered political murders, took slaves, raped and pillaged, executed Jews and created havoc in the region. It's all in the Qu'ran.

steakbake
11-10-2012, 03:35 PM
Good choice of words. The mathematical discipline known as Algebra was furthered, but not invented, by "Islamic scholars", and incidentally these men were Berber North Africans, not Arabs, whose ancestors were converted by the sword. The Alexandrian Greek Diophantus laid the ground work for Algebra. An inhabitant of the same city that's famous library was burned down for being un-islamic. Quite amazed you choose to credit Islam with secular learning because the individuals involved were also theological thinkers. On that logic we can assign the works of Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, for example, to the church given their deeply held convictions.

The Hitler analogy is a valid one. The Qu'ran is a spiritual Mein Kampf and equally anti Semitic. It merges the concept of Judeo-Christian spiritual faith with violence - that is it's only true revelation. Mohammed was a tyrant just like Hitler. He ordered political murders, took slaves, raped and pillaged, executed Jews and created havoc in the region. It's all in the Qu'ran.

As I said in my last post, I'm not interested in trying to dissuade you from your crusade. However, I respect that you have your opinion.

Betty Boop
11-10-2012, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=FalkirkHibby;3379695]Good choice of words. The mathematical discipline known as Algebra was furthered, but not invented, by "Islamic scholars", and incidentally these men were Berber North Africans, not Arabs, whose ancestors were converted by the sword. The Alexandrian Greek Diophantus laid the ground work for Algebra. An inhabitant of the same city that's famous library was burned down for being un-islamic. Quite amazed you choose to credit Islam with secular learning because the individuals involved were also theological thinkers. On that logic we can assign the works of Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, for example, to the church given their deeply held convictions.

The Hitler analogy is a valid one. The Qu'ran is a spiritual Mein Kampf and equally anti Semitic. It merges the concept of Judeo-Christian spiritual faith with violence - that is it's only true revelation. Mohammed was a tyrant just like Hitler. He ordered political murders, took slaves, raped and pillaged, executed Jews and created havoc in the region. It's all in the Qu'ran.[/QUOTE

I wonder what other Islamaphobe compared the Koran to Mein Kampf ? Are you a fan of Geert Wilders by any chance ?

Johnny0762
11-10-2012, 09:30 PM
Pakistan is a backward nation with an inherent hatred of the west. I can only imagine we have any ties with them due to them having the bomb.

hibsbollah
12-10-2012, 05:40 AM
[QUOTE=FalkirkHibby;3379695]Good choice of words. The mathematical discipline known as Algebra was furthered, but not invented, by "Islamic scholars", and incidentally these men were Berber North Africans, not Arabs, whose ancestors were converted by the sword. The Alexandrian Greek Diophantus laid the ground work for Algebra. An inhabitant of the same city that's famous library was burned down for being un-islamic. Quite amazed you choose to credit Islam with secular learning because the individuals involved were also theological thinkers. On that logic we can assign the works of Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, for example, to the church given their deeply held convictions.

The Hitler analogy is a valid one. The Qu'ran is a spiritual Mein Kampf and equally anti Semitic. It merges the concept of Judeo-Christian spiritual faith with violence - that is it's only true revelation. Mohammed was a tyrant just like Hitler. He ordered political murders, took slaves, raped and pillaged, executed Jews and created havoc in the region. It's all in the Qu'ran.[/QUOTE

I wonder what other Islamaphobe compared the Koran to Mein Kampf ? Are you a fan of Geert Wilders by any chance ?

He's best ignored I think Betty.

Betty Boop
12-10-2012, 11:20 AM
[QUOTE=Betty Boop;3380155]

He's best ignored I think Betty.

Yeah, I think you are right. In case I say something I might regret. :aok:

One Day Soon
12-10-2012, 02:50 PM
Islam hasn't had the relative benefits of a reformation as such, but there are many sects within Islam offering a wide range of interpretations on what marks the right path. The Islam of Turkey, Lebanon, most of central Asia is very different to the hard line Islam of the tribal regions of Pakistan/Afghanistan and other locations. Some aspects of Islam has also contributed to science, mathematics and geometry. Yet the chair of the senate committee on Science in the US believes the earth is 6,000 years old and was created in 6 days.

Fundamentalist Christians do kill people: why are family planning doctors and stem cell researchers under armed guard in some parts of the states?

If you want to get literal about it:


"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

I'm not here to defend Muslims who cause suffering or are violent, but I think there's a lot more at foot and far bigger issues to consider than an Us vs Them mentality, based on basic ignorance.


Mr Bake, we are in total agreement on this. Which is an unusual occurence in itself.

An excellent, excellent post.

The religions are not the problem - the deranged fanatics who sometimes attach themselves to the religion are the cancer. And you will find other credos abused in this way - eg Stalin and Communism.

The 'Islam is to blame' line is a little like saying that because of Breivik all Norwegians are predisposed to mass murder, which is patently nonsense.

Or that Germans like starting world wars...

LeighLoyal
16-10-2012, 04:45 PM
[QUOTE=FalkirkHibby;3379695]Good choice of words. The mathematical discipline known as Algebra was furthered, but not invented, by "Islamic scholars", and incidentally these men were Berber North Africans, not Arabs, whose ancestors were converted by the sword. The Alexandrian Greek Diophantus laid the ground work for Algebra. An inhabitant of the same city that's famous library was burned down for being un-islamic. Quite amazed you choose to credit Islam with secular learning because the individuals involved were also theological thinkers. On that logic we can assign the works of Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, for example, to the church given their deeply held convictions.

The Hitler analogy is a valid one. The Qu'ran is a spiritual Mein Kampf and equally anti Semitic. It merges the concept of Judeo-Christian spiritual faith with violence - that is it's only true revelation. Mohammed was a tyrant just like Hitler. He ordered political murders, took slaves, raped and pillaged, executed Jews and created havoc in the region. It's all in the Qu'ran.[/QUOTE

I wonder what other Islamaphobe compared the Koran to Mein Kampf ? Are you a fan of Geert Wilders by any chance ?


It is a spiritual Mein Kampf. A truth easily verified by reading it, or any visit to lands like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria and elsewhere. Just because I'm a Hibs fan of 40 years doesn't mean I have to be an old school leftist that thinks an ideology is harmless because it originated from a so called oppressed part of the globe. Maybe you should watch Wilders film and get back? Leftists seem to have fixed mentalities, much like Islamists, and make curious bedfellows. I suspect if Islam had a whiter face it would be hounded as repressive fascism by these same head sanders, but we live in pc times. The shooting of a 14 year old girl in the head who dared to make her voice heard is of no concern or relevance. Just another casulaty amongst millions in a sea of wilful western liberal ignorance regards the rotten core at the heart of Islam . :rolleyes:

Big Ed
17-10-2012, 12:51 PM
The shooting of a 14 year old girl in the head who dared to make her voice heard is of no concern or relevance. Just another casulaty amongst millions in a sea of wilful western liberal ignorance regards the rotten core at the heart of Islam . :rolleyes:

Have you read or heard of anyone who condoned this?

I know I haven't.