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Baldy Foghorn
17-08-2010, 02:10 PM
Playing devils advocate again here:devil:

Yogi was hero worshipped by many when he arrived, has that changed because he continues to play Hogg and Nish???.......

Serious question folks, so no need for smart erse comments/answers

bighairyfaeleith
17-08-2010, 02:13 PM
the fact he is continuing to play these players is I think adding to it, however I think that is just another symptom, the main problem has been his stubbornness not to change things when it's not going right. Hopefully he is starting to learn that lesson

Baldy Foghorn
17-08-2010, 02:13 PM
the fact he is continuing to play these players is I think adding to it, however I think that is just another symptom, the main problem has been his stubbornness not to change things when it's not going right. Hopefully he is starting to learn that lesson

Fair comment......:wink:

matty_f
17-08-2010, 02:16 PM
the fact he is continuing to play these players is I think adding to it, however I think that is just another symptom, the main problem has been his stubbornness not to change things when it's not going right. Hopefully he is starting to learn that lesson

I'd argue that Yogi's changed things on several occasions, without always getting it right.

As for the Hogg and Nish question, I know a good few folk who see their continued selection as a big question mark against Yogi.

Danderhall Hibs
17-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Playing devils advocate again here:devil:

Yogi was hero worshipped by many when he arrived, has that changed because he continues to play Hogg and Nish???.......

Serious question folks, so no need for smart erse comments/answers

If they continue to perform like they did for 95% of last season I trhink it will.

I'm sure Yogi will be grateful for the supporters that are happy to take what they get and will continue to support him no matter what though.

truehibernian
17-08-2010, 02:24 PM
First time ever I have heard Hughes question via the media both Hogg's ability as a centre half and a captain was this weekend. About time too and I wonder what brought it on. He is simply awful. Nish has good games, has contributions to games, and despite what we all say now and again, doesn't seem to hide. Chris Hogg is quite simply a bad football player who should not be anywhere near that defence/team IMHO. Doesn't throw his body in front of players, doesn't anticipate, jogs back into position, stands off attackers, the list is endless. Would have Nish in the squad any day of the week, but would happily drive Chris to the airport and away from Hibernian. Hugely likeable fella, but never a footballer. Bamba's athleticism covers a lot of Hogg's mistakes and missed headers/challenges. If we lose big Sol I worry what will hold that defence together.

Doddie
17-08-2010, 02:30 PM
Playing devils advocate again here:devil:

Yogi was hero worshipped by many when he arrived, has that changed because he continues to play Hogg and Nish???.......

Serious question folks, so no need for smart erse comments/answers


I find it very VERY difficult to understand why he made Chris Hogg team captain. I also find it very hard to understand why he persists with him in central defence when he has a number of other options open to him - Stephens, Thicot, and Hanlon to name but three. Experience? Maybe, but I'd like to see evidence that that experience gives him something to offer better than those other, younger players.

Colin Nish puzzles me. When he's good, he's actually very good. When he's bad, he's horrible. But he always plays for the jersey - even when he's tripping over himself, getting caught offside, and giving away stupid penalties like the one on Sunday. I kinda see him as the 21st-century version of Benny Brazil, totally exasperating, but I don't like to get on his case too much because he does put in a shift - even if I sometimes wonder which side he's actually playing for....

As for Yogi himself, I don't want to see us going down the road of sacking yet another manager - sorry, should that be 'parting with another manager by mutual consent'? - after less than two years. This is a habit we've got into as a club which is doing us no good whatsoever. I'm sure STF, RP and the rest of the board understand this.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that our poor form in the second half (should that maybe be 'the last third'?) of last season was all down to Yogi. We had a number of long-term injury problems, some not serious, but niggling and serious enough to deprive us of the services of a number of important players. The state of our own pitch and others did us no favours either.

The disruption to routine caused by the building of the East Stand can't have helped, either. IIRC the same thing happened the season we built the West. Major stadium work does tend to affect the form of the team. Happily we're now past this.

I'm sure that Yogi's still looking to sign players for the coming season. Last year he did a fair bit of good business in the closing days of the window. The three players he HAS signed this window seem to be decent signings in areas we needed strengthening. I still have some reservations about his tactical sense - but then, compared to Mixu, he's a genius....

The only other thing I would say about him right now is that maybe he should be less forthcoming to the press; at times he's given information out that's come back to embarrass him.

Meeko
17-08-2010, 02:31 PM
First time ever I have heard Hughes question via the media both Hogg's ability as a centre half and a captain was this weekend. About time too and I wonder what brought it on. He is simply awful. Nish has good games, has contributions to games, and despite what we all say now and again, doesn't seem to hide. Chris Hogg is quite simply a bad football player who should not be anywhere near that defence/team IMHO. Doesn't throw his body in front of players, doesn't anticipate, jogs back into position, stands off attackers, the list is endless. Would have Nish in the squad any day of the week, but would happily drive Chris to the airport and away from Hibernian. Hugely likeable fella, but never a footballer. Bamba's athleticism covers a lot of Hogg's mistakes and missed headers/challenges. If we lose big Sol I worry what will hold that defence together.

:top marks

Doddie
17-08-2010, 02:37 PM
First time ever I have heard Hughes question via the media both Hogg's ability as a centre half and a captain was this weekend. About time too and I wonder what brought it on. He is simply awful. Nish has good games, has contributions to games, and despite what we all say now and again, doesn't seem to hide. Chris Hogg is quite simply a bad football player who should not be anywhere near that defence/team IMHO. Doesn't throw his body in front of players, doesn't anticipate, jogs back into position, stands off attackers, the list is endless. Would have Nish in the squad any day of the week, but would happily drive Chris to the airport and away from Hibernian. Hugely likeable fella, but never a footballer. Bamba's athleticism covers a lot of Hogg's mistakes and missed headers/challenges. If we lose big Sol I worry what will hold that defence together.

:agree: That, and Kevin McBride's covering in midfield. If the back four was a more reliable unit, I think we'd see a lot more from Kevin.

lEXO
17-08-2010, 02:40 PM
I find it very VERY difficult to understand why he made Chris Hogg team captain. I also find it very hard to understand why he persists with him in central defence when he has a number of other options open to him - Stephens, Thicot, and Hanlon to name but three. Experience? Maybe, but I'd like to see evidence that that experience gives him something to offer better than those other, younger players.

Colin Nish puzzles me. When he's good, he's actually very good. When he's bad, he's horrible. But he always plays for the jersey - even when he's tripping over himself, getting caught offside, and giving away stupid penalties like the one on Sunday. I kinda see him as the 21st-century version of Benny Brazil, totally exasperating, but I don't like to get on his case too much because he does put in a shift - even if I sometimes wonder which side he's actually playing for....

As for Yogi himself, I don't want to see us going down the road of sacking yet another manager - sorry, should that be 'parting with another manager by mutual consent'? - after less than two years. This is a habit we've got into as a club which is doing us no good whatsoever. I'm sure STF, RP and the rest of the board understand this.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that our poor form in the second half (should that maybe be 'the last third'?) of last season was all down to Yogi. We had a number of long-term injury problems, some not serious, but niggling and serious enough to deprive us of the services of a number of important players. The state of our own pitch and others did us no favours either.

The disruption to routine caused by the building of the East Stand can't have helped, either. IIRC the same thing happened the season we built the West. Major stadium work does tend to affect the form of the team. Happily we're now past this.

I'm sure that Yogi's still looking to sign players for the coming season. Last year he did a fair bit of good business in the closing days of the window. The three players he HAS signed this window seem to be decent signings in areas we needed strengthening. I still have some reservations about his tactical sense - but then, compared to Mixu, he's a genius....

The only other thing I would say about him right now is that maybe he should be less forthcoming to the press; at times he's given information out that's come back to embarrass him.
Pretty much how i feel Doddie. I would be surprised if Hogg is with us next season, and hopefully Yogi is looking to bring in another defender or so.His signings overall have been good so hopefully we can pick up some more.
As for Nish, i agree he is an enigma but if he get,s us another 10 or 12 goal this season i will be happy enough.

EskbankHibby
17-08-2010, 02:42 PM
Playing devils advocate again here:devil:

Yogi was hero worshipped by many when he arrived, has that changed because he continues to play Hogg and Nish???.......

Serious question folks, so no need for smart erse comments/answers

Any frustration i have is based around Yogi's perceived 'blind spots' and you have touched upon a couple of them.

Chris Hogg is neither a dominant Centre Half or skillful Sauzee type who can read a game from the back and snuff out problems before they occur. Not only is he playing, he is captain, truly baffling.

I think Nish adds something to the team, hot or cold i agree (ok scorching or freezing) but he could bring something to the team. Yogi's persistence in employing him in a front 3 however is very frustrating when we can all see that he should be a bench option with Deeks/Stokes up front in a 4-4-2. Not good for the team and arguably not fair on big Nish.

Still not giving up on Yogi yet though, would be brilliant if we could further strengthen the squad in these areas.

houston1875
17-08-2010, 02:45 PM
Playing devils advocate again here:devil:

Yogi was hero worshipped by many when he arrived, has that changed because he continues to play Hogg and Nish???.......

Serious question folks, so no need for smart erse comments/answers

nope not changed,im behind him 100%,he's a young manager,remember,he'll make mistakes and learn from them.dont we all?

give him time,all good,even great managers need time in the job to get things right?

jane_says
17-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Any frustration i have is based around Yogi's perceived 'blind spots' and you have touched upon a couple of them.

Chris Hogg is neither a dominant Centre Half or skillful Sauzee type who can read a game from the back and snuff out problems before they occur. Not only is he playing, he is captain, truly baffling.

I think Nish adds something to the team, hot or cold i agree (ok scorching or freezing) but he could bring something to the team. Yogi's persistence in employing him in a front 3 however is very frustrating when we can all see that he should be a bench option with Deeks/Stokes up front in a 4-4-2. Not good for the team and arguably not fair on big Nish.

Still not giving up on Yogi yet though, would be brilliant if we could further strengthen the squad in these areas.

:agree:

agree with that whole paragraph but the bit in bold is especially true. because of this we have the constant nish threads after every game slating the guy, he would be much better if used as a sub.

jacomoseven
17-08-2010, 03:17 PM
Colin Nish is something of an enigma, but it's interesting that Yogi is now the fourth manager to place his faith in Hoggy - Mowbray signed him, JC, Mixu and Yogi have all played him more often than not, despite other options coming and going over that time.

So he must offer something?

I think that Hogg's professionalism and attitude play a big part in this - clearly managers trust him, and I think he must be a positive influence in the changing room.

pentlando
17-08-2010, 03:18 PM
nope not changed,im behind him 100%,he's a young manager,remember,he'll make mistakes and learn from them.dont we all?

give him time,all good,even great managers need time in the job to get things right?

:top marks

He's the one with the coaching certificates, surely he's in a better position to judge what players to play??

Also we don't see what goes on off the pitch, whilst i don't personally think Hogg inspires on the pitch he's captain for the entire week, not just the 90 minutes at the weekend.

The manager should be judged on his results, which up till now haven't been bad at all!

4th place league finish last season, albeit short stint in europe this and a good result at the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!!

Speedway
17-08-2010, 03:32 PM
I think Yogi saw Hogg as an able Lieutenant, Murray had been captain and left the club and Hogg was one of the longest serving players at the time whilst being settled at Hibs.

I'm not sure that Yogi got it wrong as Hogg hasn't risen to the challenge. Instead it's affected his own performances which have drawn out more criticism towards him.

Yogi is Hibs daft. He understands and believes in the spirit and history of the club, he is eager to succeed and has presided over 300 SPL matches. He kept a small team in the SPL with big signings for them (Latapy, McCann, McNamara, Stokes, Bullen, Moutinho, Lynch)

He is a student of the game and is well respected in SPL circles. He has all his badges and is eager to get the players buying into the working class community philosophy of the club, whilst maxmising the excellent and luxurious training facilities.

His signings have, on the whole, been an improvement on what we already had, he's within our budget as are his signings and he has won more than he's lost in his short time in charge.

'Mon The Yogi.

Doddie
17-08-2010, 03:32 PM
Any frustration i have is based around Yogi's perceived 'blind spots' and you have touched upon a couple of them.

Chris Hogg is neither a dominant Centre Half or skillful Sauzee type who can read a game from the back and snuff out problems before they occur. Not only is he playing, he is captain, truly baffling.

I think Nish adds something to the team, hot or cold i agree (ok scorching or freezing) but he could bring something to the team. Yogi's persistence in employing him in a front 3 however is very frustrating when we can all see that he should be a bench option with Deeks/Stokes up front in a 4-4-2. Not good for the team and arguably not fair on big Nish.

Still not giving up on Yogi yet though, would be brilliant if we could further strengthen the squad in these areas.


:agree:

agree with that whole paragraph but the bit in bold is especially true. because of this we have the constant nish threads after every game slating the guy, he would be much better if used as a sub.


:agree: I think the whole team would benefit from playing 4-4-2 - there are times even when Colin Nish might very well get the nod ahead of either Deek or Stokes up front, playing as one of two strikers. Straightforward competition for places, in fact. I wouldn't play CN the way Yogi is, but I wouldn't punt him by any means.

That would be unfair IMO, and just asking for him to come back to bite us the first time he played against us.... :rolleyes:

Chris Hogg, on the other hand, seems to have gone backwards the last couple fo seasons. He comes over as a decent guy, and he isn't lazy, but right now he far from the sort of defender we need if we're going to move forward, especially, as I've already said, when we have David Stephens, Steve Thicot and Paul Hanlon, all central defenders, all younger, and all offering more than Chris is right now.

JimBHibees
17-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Absolutely amazed Hogg is still in the team never mind as captain. I think it is appearing as a weight around his neck rather than an honour. I think it is a weakness that he appears untouchable especially when for examople Thicot came in v Rangers at the end of the season and looked good. He needs dropped pronto IMO.

Nish isnt the best player in the world by any means however he is a trier and is a threat to other teams I also think he is favoured due to his size at defensive set pieces. He is very up and down however IMO is a good squad player who can contribute throughout the season as shown by his goals at the end of last season.

blackpoolhibs
17-08-2010, 04:27 PM
I'm 100% behind the manager. He will do things i don't agree with, in fact he will make decisions none of us will agree with, but if he takes the club forward and gets us competing at the right end of the league consistently, that will be good enough for me.:notworthy:

ahibby
17-08-2010, 04:47 PM
I don't think Yogi is in trouble with the fans, if he is, because he plays Hogg and Nish. I agree that both have failed to impress but at the same time both offer something that we need at times. Until we get a big forward and a brave CH to replace them we need to keep them in our ranks and dare I say even play them. Where Yogi falls foul is we feel he doesn't change things as necessary, or hasn't in the past. However on Saturday he made the changes necessary so he has probably bought himself time. I hope no one wants him to fail although he might feel his back is to the wall with the fans and now is the time when he will show his ability or not.

Doddie
17-08-2010, 06:01 PM
I don't think Yogi is in trouble with the fans, if he is, because he plays Hogg and Nish. I agree that both have failed to impress but at the same time both offer something that we need at times. Until we get a big forward and a brave CH to replace them we need to keep them in our ranks and dare I say even play them. Where Yogi falls foul is we feel he doesn't change things as necessary, or hasn't in the past. However on Saturday he made the changes necessary so he has probably bought himself time. I hope no one wants him to fail although he might feel his back is to the wall with the fans and now is the time when he will show his ability or not.


I don't want him to fail; I don't think many of us do.

I think there are questions he has to answer this season - but then that's true of every manager in football.

I think a lot of fans need to calm down a wee bit and give the guy time.

JimBHibees
17-08-2010, 06:22 PM
I don't want him to fail; I don't think many of us do.

I think there are questions he has to answer this season - but then that's true of every manager in football.

I think a lot of fans need to calm down a wee bit and give the guy time.

Nail on head IMO. He is still a young manager and however you want to look at it got us into a very good league position last year and qualified for Europe. He isnt perfect however he has IMO bought well by and large and needs to be given a lot more patience by both the club and the fans.

Baldy Foghorn
17-08-2010, 08:36 PM
Nail on head IMO. He is still a young manager and however you want to look at it got us into a very good league position last year and qualified for Europe. He isnt perfect however he has IMO bought well by and large and needs to be given a lot more patience by both the club and the fans.

:agree::agree:

BEEJ
17-08-2010, 10:28 PM
An observation / comment on each of the three persons mentioned in the OP:

Colin Nish's ready ability to mouth off at anyone in authority (usually the ref, linesmen and 4th official) do him no favours. His card is now marked in the SPL which is why he seldom seems to get any 50-50 decisions and why he appears to have the ability to draw yellow cards from refs pockets with consummate ease. Unfortunately that often makes him a liability to the team.

For all the time Chris Hogg has been at the club I have never heard of any other club making enquiries about his availability and trying to secure his services. While that does lead to a level of commitment to the club which is unusual by today's standards, it also tells its own story. Chris is admired for his lifestyle and his work ethic and was selected for the captaincy by Yogi as he is a good role model for the younger players. But his game has deteriorated since he took over the captain's armband.

To me the biggest doubts about Yogi do not stem from these two players who he insists on starting every match. Rather they are down to his often baffling tactics, team formations and inappropriate substitutions. It can be argued, for example, that Nish often under-performs because he's being asked to take on a role for which he is just not suited.

Hopefully though Yogi is learning and on Sunday we saw the first signs of progress on that front. :pray:

sixtwo
17-08-2010, 10:38 PM
Yogi was brave enough to drop Hogg last season and I can see him doing it again.

He may give him another game or two to avoid denting his confidence further.

In an ideal world Bamba would sign a one year extension to his contract and get the armband for this season. Hogg would get a boot up the hole and told to get on the bench and we'd try out bamba and stephens at centre half!

Geo_1875
17-08-2010, 10:49 PM
Hogg comes in for a lot of justified criticism. His defending is weak and he is easily out muscled by guys like Sutton on Sunday. However, he is consistently put under pressure by team-mates who persist in using him as an out ball when they know his distribution is poor. I've lost count of the number of times that the ball comes back to him and you know it is going to be a poor pass, usually straight to an opponent. If we want to build from the back the ball should not go anywhere near him.

Houchy
18-08-2010, 10:48 AM
Yogi was brave enough to drop Hogg last season and I can see him doing it again.

He may give him another game or two to avoid denting his confidence further.

In an ideal world Bamba would sign a one year extension to his contract and get the armband for this season. Hogg would get a boot up the hole and told to get on the bench and we'd try out bamba and stephens at centre half!

While I also feel that Bamba and Stephens at CH is a move forward, I don't know if giving Bamba the armband is a good idea after coming back late after the world cup, although to be fair to the big guy, he got sent to train with the youngsters and AFAIK, didn't bump his gums about it, took his punishment and is back playing (well) again.

Good to see the pictures in the Metro of Yogi getting right in Hoggs face on Sunday (probably the incident where he told Hogg "If another ba' goes over your heid, your off!!!" add your own Yogi expletives:greengrin).

I agree that Hogg needs a shock though as he seems too comfortable.

Doddie
18-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Yogi was brave enough to drop Hogg last season and I can see him doing it again.

He may give him another game or two to avoid denting his confidence further.

In an ideal world Bamba would sign a one year extension to his contract and get the armband for this season. Hogg would get a boot up the hole and told to get on the bench and we'd try out bamba and stephens at centre half!

:agree: Bamba and Stephens would be my choice, too. Stephens may be lacking experience, but he's quick over the ground, he has good touch and technique, and he's BIG.

Hart-Stephens-Bamba-Murray would be my back four right now. :agree:

Baldy Foghorn
18-08-2010, 11:02 AM
Was Hogg not player of the Season for his first two seasons or am I imagining this?:confused:

Anyway a good player does not suddenly become a bad player, so the question has to be asked with his confidence is obviously so lo at present?

JimBHibees
18-08-2010, 11:03 AM
While I also feel that Bamba and Stephens at CH is a move forward, I don't know if giving Bamba the armband is a good idea after coming back late after the world cup, although to be fair to the big guy, he got sent to train with the youngsters and AFAIK, didn't bump his gums about it, took his punishment and is back playing (well) again.

Good to see the pictures in the Metro of Yogi getting right in Hoggs face on Sunday (probably the incident where he told Hogg "If another ba' goes over your heid, your off!!!" add your own Yogi expletives:greengrin).

I agree that Hogg needs a shock though as he seems too comfortable.

Not sure that is a good sign. The decision to replace Hogg is IMO an obvious one to make and the fact it hasnt happened before now has been a mistake.

I can remember a comment by Hogg last season saying he didnt agree with being dropped if that is the level of the guys self awareness and honesty then personally I dont think he should be within a mile of being captain. IMO he should have admitted he wasnt playing well and worked harder to get back in.

hwuhibby
18-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Was Hogg not player of the Season for his first two seasons or am I imagining this?:confused:

Anyway a good player does not suddenly become a bad player, so the question has to be asked with his confidence is obviously so lo at present?

i always felt that Jones covered up a fair bit of Hogg's errors.....

Baldy Foghorn
18-08-2010, 11:16 AM
i always felt that Jones covered up a fair bit of Hogg's errors.....

Not sure about that..... That would not explain Hogg's POTY status either?

blackpoolhibs
18-08-2010, 11:16 AM
Was Hogg not player of the Season for his first two seasons or am I imagining this?:confused:

Anyway a good player does not suddenly become a bad player, so the question has to be asked with his confidence is obviously so lo at present?

I dont remember if he was player of the year a few years ago, i sem to remember he was once, but i'm not exactly sure when? Certainly was not player of the year last season, and i know this seasons only one game in, but its not a great start to this one. To say he's suddenly become a bad player is a tad silly, last season he was crap. Week in week out he was one of our worst players. If he started to play well, people would say so, but thats clearly not the case, and has not been for a long time.

Leith Green
18-08-2010, 11:38 AM
Hogg was player of the season 2007-08 , and in my opinion he has lived off the back of that season since, he was ropey before it and has gradually gotten worse since.. He has got to the point now where he shouldn't even be a squad player at hibs. As hard a worker or honest pro as he may be, he is awful and I reckon yogi made him captain to recapture his poty season, it hasn't worked. Let's find a new captain, release hogg and let's move on..