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View Full Version : Spl clubs in debt are cheats/Pressley (merged)



killie-hibby
02-04-2010, 07:31 AM
Article in todays Daily Mail quotes Steven Pressley as stating " clubs who try to operate within a footballing budget suffer because of others who spend outwith their means and sign players they cannot afford. They then rack up unsustainable deficits-and that is a form of cheating. It is sinilar to athletes taking drugs." "drugs enhance performance, clubs spend money they dont have to enhance their performance." "At Falkirk we are a good example of a club which is working within their means and so are Hibernian. Yet we both suffer through not signing certain players, because we are operating in the correct manner. It is time the SFA got tough and punish teams in so called financial doping."
'He wants Scottish clubs to follow the example of France who have caps on wages and budgets.'

I fully agree with him and hope that in the future there is an ongoing scheme where auditors check football club budgets and deduct one point for every £250000. of debt.
Under this or a similar scheme Rangers and Hearts would be fighting each other to avoid relegation. I also believe teams entering into administration should be relagated to the 3rd division.
Since the McLeish era Hibernian have suffered more than any other team on the playing field by virtue of being sensible and responsible with finances.
Any other opinions on this.

weonlywon6-2
02-04-2010, 07:35 AM
Article in todays Daily Mail quotes Steven Pressley as stating " clubs who try to operate within a footballing budget suffer because of others who spend outwith their means and sign players they cannot afford. They then rack up unsustainable deficits-and that is a form of cheating. It is sinilar to athletes taking drugs." "drugs enhance performance, clubs spend money they dont have to enhance their performance." "At Falkirk we are a good example of a club which is working within their means and so are Hibernian. Yet we both suffer through not signing certain players, because we are operating in the correct manner. It is time the SFA got tough and punish teams in so called financial doping."
'He wants Scottish clubs to follow the example of France who have caps on wages and budgets.'

I fully agree with him and hope that in the future there is an ongoing scheme where auditors check football club budgets and deduct one point for every £250000. of debt.
Under this or a similar scheme Rangers and Hearts would be fighting each other to avoid relegation. I also believe teams entering into administration should be relagated to the 3rd division.
Since the McLeish era Hibernian have suffered more than any other team on the playing field by virtue of being sensible and responsible with finances.
Any other opinions on this.

have to agree with him but the clubs are mostly private companies and can do whatever they want,which is wrong.

deduction of points for debt would be a laugh.hearts would start -7062 points

:faf:

bighairyfaeleith
02-04-2010, 07:39 AM
agree 100%

The sfa will do sfa, but in a fair world they would penalise teams that spend money they don't have.

Not sure what the penalty should be but a points deduction is probably the best bet.

Money shouldn't win games. Time for football to be given back to the fans and taken away from the millionaires as they are just abusing there plaything.

hibiedude
02-04-2010, 07:44 AM
I think Steve Pressley was having a pop at teams like Kilmarknock who are 11 Million in debt and clearly living outwith there means.

Livingston had the same issue and look at them now

I'm_cabbaged
02-04-2010, 07:56 AM
He wasn't complaining when he was getting over paid by the yams though.
Also is it not the case that Falkirk cheated their way into the SPL by not building the necessary stadium thus improving player budgets when their contenders for the First Division did. The yams did the same thing with Gorgie Rd end after the Taylor report, everybody else was skint after seating and covering terraces or building new stands, they bought a Scottish cup winning team. (If my memory serves me right):grr:

Hexham Hibee
02-04-2010, 07:57 AM
I'll bet Pressley wasn't saying that when he was lifting the cup or finishing second with the Yams. Two-faced or what?

GGTTH

BEEJ
02-04-2010, 07:59 AM
Pressley is 100% correct.

But given Falkirk's current position in the SPL it will just be interpreted as sour grapes.

vanNISHtelroy
02-04-2010, 08:02 AM
I think Steve Pressley was having a pop at teams like Kilmarknock who are 11 Million in debt and clearly living outwith there means.

Livingston had the same issue and look at them now

Were living outwith their means? The budget has been increasingly cut due to the need to keep the bank happy, making it more difficult to stay up.

killie-hibby
02-04-2010, 08:05 AM
I'll bet Pressley wasn't saying that when he was lifting the cup or finishing second with the Yams. Two-faced or what?

GGTTH

Despite being two faced and generally dislikeable, in this instance he seems to be talking sense. More than likely by being at Falkirk whom are nearer the real world of football than his previous clubs Rangers,hearts and Celtic.

weonlywon6-2
02-04-2010, 08:16 AM
agree 100%

The sfa will do sfa, but in a fair world they would penalise teams that spend money they don't have.

Not sure what the penalty should be but a points deduction is probably the best bet.

Money shouldn't win games. Time for football to be given back to the fans and taken away from the millionaires as they are just abusing there plaything.

:top marks

also, it would stop paying crazy wages to otherwise ordinary players

Phil D. Rolls
02-04-2010, 08:16 AM
He wasn't complaining when he was getting over paid by the yams though.
Also is it not the case that Falkirk cheated their way into the SPL by not building the necessary stadium thus improving player budgets when their contenders for the First Division did. The yams did the same thing with Gorgie Rd end after the Taylor report, everybody else was skint after seating and covering terraces or building new stands, they bought a Scottish cup winning team. (If my memory serves me right):grr:

Correct, IIRC they tried this stunt a couple of seasons in a row. When they kept getting the same answer, they tried to change the rules. They also got the league reconstructed a couple of times in the 80s, so that they could be promoted.

It's not that long ago that Hibs has silly debts though, so maybe there's a lesson for everyone.

weonlywon6-2
02-04-2010, 08:18 AM
He wasn't complaining when he was getting over paid by the yams though.Also is it not the case that Falkirk cheated their way into the SPL by not building the necessary stadium thus improving player budgets when their contenders for the First Division did. The yams did the same thing with Gorgie Rd end after the Taylor report, everybody else was skint after seating and covering terraces or building new stands, they bought a Scottish cup winning team. (If my memory serves me right):grr:

really not sure how much he was on at hearts,but they had a new owner come in ,bags of money and a chance to split the old squirm,win the league and go on to lift the champions league, so you cant blame him there !!:faf::faf::faf:

Peevemor
02-04-2010, 08:19 AM
I don't think he's being two faced. As a player he would have been daft not to have followed the money whether he thought the situation was correct or not.

hibiedude
02-04-2010, 08:47 AM
Were living outwith their means? The budget has been increasingly cut due to the need to keep the bank happy, making it more difficult to stay up.

Livi were paying player wages that were clearly outwith there means even in there good times.

David Fernanbez and Marvin (I have found God) Andrews to name a few.

A couple off Months ago they were opperating without Electricity and thats the 2nd time in a year thats happend.

So they are paying the price now for living outwith there means when they were in the SPL.

And before anyone asks I have been working at Livi football club for my employers for some time and know just how bad things are at the club right now.

Leithenhibby
02-04-2010, 08:52 AM
Got to agree with his comments regards the debt that some clubs are carrying...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/2917931/Junkies.html

For me, he makes a lot of good points that make perfect sense :agree:

Falkirk live within their means and in many ways it is totally unfair that they find themselves in the relegation zone, when in theory they could have bought their way out! in theory..:cool2:

The French league work in a way that if you spend out with your means, you get punished for it. :wink: Did Marseille not get relegated for spending money they didn't have?

I can think of two teams that have bought the SPL for years..:wink:

greenlex
02-04-2010, 09:29 AM
I couldn't give too monkeys whotsits about what that ugly big Canute has to say. Hibs have indeed been ultra prudent since the McLiesh years and we as fans have had to suffer. I cannot wait fir the day of reckoning fir all those clubs that are financially goosed. It won't be long till the **** hits more than the fan.

matty_f
02-04-2010, 09:42 AM
I think he makes a valid point as well, IIRC Phil Brown was speaking about the Portsmouth situation, saying it was right to deduct points. He said he'd tried to sign a few players that ended up at Portsmouth because they offered wages they couldn't afford.

How's that fair?

vanNISHtelroy
02-04-2010, 09:55 AM
Livi were paying player wages that were clearly outwith there means even in there good times.

David Fernanbez and Marvin (I have found God) Andrews to name a few.

A couple off Months ago they were opperating without Electricity and thats the 2nd time in a year thats happend.

So they are paying the price now for living outwith there means when they were in the SPL.

And before anyone asks I have been working at Livi football club for my employers for some time and know just how bad things are at the club right now.

Sorry hibiedude just to make it clear I was talking about Killie, thought it was clear cos i mentioned it making it more difficult to keep us up.

We're suffering for paying Fat Sally and Cocard money that they didn't really earn. Paying Durrant money he did earn but we prob couldn't afford. Also paying over the top wages to players like Calderon and Sanjuan, and any wages at all to players like Andy Smith and Mike Jeffery.

hibiedude
02-04-2010, 09:58 AM
Sorry hibiedude just to make it clear I was talking about Killie, thought it was clear cos i mentioned it making it more difficult to keep us up.

We're suffering for paying Fat Sally and Cocard money that they didn't really earn. Paying Durrant money he did earn but we prob couldn't afford. Also paying over the top wages to players like Calderon and Sanjuan, and any wages at all to players like Andy Smith and Mike Jeffery.

My apologies vanNISHtelroy

basehibby
02-04-2010, 12:23 PM
He wasn't complaining when he was getting over paid by the yams though.
Also is it not the case that Falkirk cheated their way into the SPL by not building the necessary stadium thus improving player budgets when their contenders for the First Division did. The yams did the same thing with Gorgie Rd end after the Taylor report, everybody else was skint after seating and covering terraces or building new stands, they bought a Scottish cup winning team. (If my memory serves me right):grr:

No that's nonsense - they were DENIED promotion twice in a row because of issues with their stadium. The organisations that cheated teams out of promotion were the SPL and SFA who did away with promotion those years rather than do the fair thing and promote the highest ranked team that passed requirements.

basehibby
02-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Article in todays Daily Mail quotes Steven Pressley as stating " clubs who try to operate within a footballing budget suffer because of others who spend outwith their means and sign players they cannot afford. They then rack up unsustainable deficits-and that is a form of cheating. It is sinilar to athletes taking drugs." "drugs enhance performance, clubs spend money they dont have to enhance their performance." "At Falkirk we are a good example of a club which is working within their means and so are Hibernian. Yet we both suffer through not signing certain players, because we are operating in the correct manner. It is time the SFA got tough and punish teams in so called financial doping."
'He wants Scottish clubs to follow the example of France who have caps on wages and budgets.'

I fully agree with him and hope that in the future there is an ongoing scheme where auditors check football club budgets and deduct one point for every £250000. of debt.
Under this or a similar scheme Rangers and Hearts would be fighting each other to avoid relegation. I also believe teams entering into administration should be relagated to the 3rd division.
Since the McLeish era Hibernian have suffered more than any other team on the playing field by virtue of being sensible and responsible with finances.
Any other opinions on this.

:top marksto Elvis on this occasion. Clubs that are spending money they don't have are a negative influence on the whole game.


They gain an unfair competitive advantage over clubs that are NOT run in this cowboy fashion - best example being the Livi side who beat a virtual Hibs youth side in the League Cup final shortly before going into administration and effectively robbing their creditors of large sums of money.
They exert an indirect pressure on other teams to over-spend as well - how tempted for example must Rod have been to overspend to bring in the likes of Darren Barr - signed by the Yams with money they most definately do NOT have.
The perpetrators are putting the very future of their clubs - often 100 plus years old institutions at the heart of their local communities - in dire peril. That of course is in the long run - something that seems to matter very little to the fly-by-night jokers who make these decisions - not that it matters to them as they'll be sipping pina coladas in their cosy tax havens while the fans who's clubs they've destroyed are crying into their beers.
I think Elvis makes a very good point here and the former uber-yam is also big enough to give Hibs the credit they're due. I'd really like to see the SFA/SPL/whoever take strong action on this as there is currently very little in the way of unscrupulous "businessmen" who would play fast and hard with the bankrupcy rules just to buy themselves a little short term glory before leaving the clubs they chose as their big-boys-toys in tatters when they get bored.

Phil D. Rolls
02-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Livi were paying player wages that were clearly outwith there means even in there good times.

David Fernanbez and Marvin (I have found God) Andrews to name a few.

A couple off Months ago they were opperating without Electricity and thats the 2nd time in a year thats happend.

So they are paying the price now for living outwith there means when they were in the SPL.

And before anyone asks I have been working at Livi football club for my employers for some time and know just how bad things are at the club right now.

Yep, and they won the League Cup on the back of that policy. OK, we were poorly prepared by the Blobster, but it made it even harder to take when you realised there was no way that club could afford to pay its players.

Then there was the season we got relegated, and the Pars stayed up. They were paying their players rather than meeting stadium criteria, and then they let Dundee come up with a stadium that didn't meet the criteria.

Sir David Gray
02-04-2010, 02:27 PM
I am not in favour of limiting the amount that clubs can spend on players and wages as I think the people in charge have to decide for themselves what is the best course of action to take for their clubs.

If they overspend to try and buy success and then end up in financial ruin and have to go into administration in an attempt to sort out the mess then they have to face the consequences. It's absolutely correct that clubs who enter administration are deducted points.

It's hard on the fans as they aren't to blame for the reckless spending but presumably they won't complain during the good times that overspending often brings. I don't think many Portsmouth fans would have been too concerned about debt levels when they won the FA Cup a couple of years ago and had the likes of Peter Crouch, Glen Johnson and Jermain Defoe playing for them.

It's unfair at the time for teams who do live within their means but I'm sure that in the long run, those sides who do follow a responsible financial policy will get the rewards.

Keith_M
02-04-2010, 03:35 PM
There really should be a cap on what clubs can pay out in player wages/transfers as a percentage of their income.

Something like it has to average at under 60% of income over any full five year period with no single year greater than 80% of the income for that year (with a year being 1st July to 30th June).

PISTOL1875
02-04-2010, 03:38 PM
There really should be a cap on what clubs can pay out in player wages/transfers as a percentage of their income.

Something like it has to average at under 60% of income over any full five year period with no single year greater than 80% of the income for that year (with a year being 1st July to 30th June).

That sounds good but there are ways around it for clubs to still pay big money..

weecounty hibby
02-04-2010, 03:53 PM
That sounds good but there are ways around it for clubs to still pay big money..
Not if it is in the league rules etc. I seem to remember a rugby league side in England where they do have salary caps etc trying to get round it by paying extra bonuses or expenses or something and getting caught and fined/deducted points.
UEFA and FIFA should be doing something about it but are probably terrified that the Real Madrids and Man Utds of this world who are serial offenders in this kind of thing try to set up their own league with Sky as a backer.

Pretty Boy
02-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Correct, IIRC they tried this stunt a couple of seasons in a row. When they kept getting the same answer, they tried to change the rules. They also got the league reconstructed a couple of times in the 80s, so that they could be promoted.

It's not that long ago that Hibs has silly debts though, so maybe there's a lesson for everyone.

Aye you would never catch Hibs doing something like that, oh except we did to stop ourselves getting relegated. Then only 2 years later swiftly voted in favour of the league reverting back to it's previous set up.

weecounty hibby
02-04-2010, 04:34 PM
Aye you would never catch Hibs doing something like that, oh except we did to stop ourselves getting relegated. Then only 2 years later swiftly voted in favour of the league reverting back to it's previous set up.
I have heard this for years and it is just not true. The season you refer to when relegation was scrapped was a one down one up season to start with and we finished second bottom therefor would not have gone down. I think it was St Mirren who were bottom and were saved from relegation.

Leithenhibby
02-04-2010, 05:01 PM
I am not in favour of limiting the amount that clubs can spend on players and wages as I think the people in charge have to decide for themselves what is the best course of action to take for their clubs.

If they overspend to try and buy success and then end up in financial ruin and have to go into administration in an attempt to sort out the mess then they have to face the consequences. It's absolutely correct that clubs who enter administration are deducted points.

It's hard on the fans as they aren't to blame for the reckless spending but presumably they won't complain during the good times that overspending often brings. I don't think many Portsmouth fans would have been too concerned about debt levels when they won the FA Cup a couple of years ago and had the likes of Peter Crouch, Glen Johnson and Jermain Defoe playing for them.

It's unfair at the time for teams who do live within their means but I'm sure that in the long run, those sides who do follow a responsible financial policy will get the rewards.


Like us!..:devil: Good point tho, it is up to the people running football to put the restraints on the clubs if this sort of this is going to go away. And it's not going anywhere anytime soon..:wink: The uglies will see to that.:cool2:

Kaiser1962
02-04-2010, 05:01 PM
I think he makes a valid point as well, IIRC Phil Brown was speaking about the Portsmouth situation, saying it was right to deduct points. He said he'd tried to sign a few players that ended up at Portsmouth because they offered wages they couldn't afford.

How's that fair?

Darren Barr anyone?
Has come through at Falkirk since he was a youth. Contract up and goes out to bids between us and the Yams (Dons as well?) . Despite Yams being zillions in debt they offer him the best deal. Is this fair and just/

Not bothered about him as a player actually but just making the point that he is raised in a prudent club who cant/wont offer stupid money to stay. We wont either so he signs for the Yams who do. Not Barr's fault just how it is.

clerriehibs
02-04-2010, 08:55 PM
pressley is a ****.


Did he moan about how the ****bos were cheats when he lifted the scottish cup? Did he donald duck.

MWHIBBIES
02-04-2010, 09:00 PM
Even if every other team was deducted points falkirk would still go down.

Bishop Hibee
02-04-2010, 09:11 PM
Captain Caveman can moan all he likes but until the SPL change the rules on membership then clubs can spend what they want as long as the banks are happy with whatever debt they are building up.

Clubs run prudently like Hibs and Falkirk can only hope chickens come home to roost for the likes of Killie, the Huns and Hertz.

Atalanta
02-04-2010, 09:55 PM
It strikes me that Pressley is becoming rattled by the pressure of being bottom of the league as he runs out of games and the prospects of being relegated increase by the week.

It sounds like a cheap shot accusing other teams of living beyond their means because as long as clubs are able to cover their trading losses by either benefactors who continue to lend cash, such as Romanov or David Murray until the last two years, they are still living within their means and as such should be allowed to do so and live their dream. I'm sure all of these clubs recognise this and accept the risk they are running if their circumstances change.

The risk is that if or when the benefactor turns off the tap and clubs then have to change reduce their cost bases to match their income to stay solvent. If they can re-adjust then that is fine, albeit the fans may become unhappy, however if they can’t and they become insolvent then I think the punishment should extremely severe to act as a deterrent.

I feel that the deterrent needed should be that clubs be automatically relegated by at least two divisions if they go into administration. This would act as a real deterrent and encourage clubs to behave responsibly and to stop maverick owners from destroying clubs.

noseyhibby
02-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Well said Elvis. Whilst I wouldn't use his terminology and use words like "cheat" I agree with his sentiments. Too many fly-by-night, wanting instant success characters taking clubs to the edge of the abyss. This ironically might appease the fans in the short term (ie Livingston, Gretna, Hearts 1998 onwards) but ultimately it all comes back to haunt each club with a vengeance. Livingston, all but extinct and demoted. Gretna extinct. Hearts extinct but for the whim of an irrational millionaire.

hibsboy90
02-04-2010, 10:33 PM
It strikes me that Pressley is becoming rattled by the pressure of being bottom of the league as he runs out of games and the prospects of being relegated increase by the week.

It sounds like a cheap shot accusing other teams of living beyond their means because as long as clubs are able to cover their trading losses by either benefactors who continue to lend cash, such as Romanov or David Murray until the last two years, they are still living within their means and as such should be allowed to do so and live their dream. I'm sure all of these clubs recognise this and accept the risk they are running if their circumstances change.

The risk is that if or when the benefactor turns off the tap and clubs then have to change reduce their cost bases to match their income to stay solvent. If they can re-adjust then that is fine, albeit the fans may become unhappy, however if they can’t and they become insolvent then I think the punishment should extremely severe to act as a deterrent.

I feel that the deterrent needed should be that clubs be automatically relegated by at least two divisions if they go into administration. This would act as a real deterrent and encourage clubs to behave responsibly and to stop maverick owners from destroying clubs.

Completely agree, football clubs are private companies who can trade in a way which they choose to do. As long as the debt is manageable and can be paid off without a complete firesale (like pompey).

A 'no-debt' rule would infringe on the rights of clubs to trade as they see fit. If they feel they can trade at a managebale loss then why should they.

That all being said, I agree with caveman pressley that the SFA/SPL authorities should be more involved in the club's finances, as once the debt is no longer manageable (Proven to an independant authority that they can/can't pay the debts) then they should slap a transfer ban on them.

whiskyhibby
03-04-2010, 06:51 PM
Article in todays Daily Mail quotes Steven Pressley as stating " clubs who try to operate within a footballing budget suffer because of others who spend outwith their means and sign players they cannot afford. They then rack up unsustainable deficits-and that is a form of cheating. It is sinilar to athletes taking drugs." "drugs enhance performance, clubs spend money they dont have to enhance their performance." "At Falkirk we are a good example of a club which is working within their means and so are Hibernian. Yet we both suffer through not signing certain players, because we are operating in the correct manner. It is time the SFA got tough and punish teams in so called financial doping."
'He wants Scottish clubs to follow the example of France who have caps on wages and budgets.'

I fully agree with him and hope that in the future there is an ongoing scheme where auditors check football club budgets and deduct one point for every £250000. of debt.
Under this or a similar scheme Rangers and Hearts would be fighting each other to avoid relegation. I also believe teams entering into administration should be relagated to the 3rd division.
Since the McLeish era Hibernian have suffered more than any other team on the playing field by virtue of being sensible and responsible with finances.
Any other opinions on this.


Funny how he wasn't spouting this when playing under Mad Vlads Circus.........
:kettle: