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Swoosh
05-08-2009, 04:08 PM
At a meeting today of the Scottish Football League Management Committee, Livingston Football Club were found to be in breach of Rule 76.2, relating to insolvency.

The sanction imposed was to place Livingston F.C. in the Third Division for Season 2009-2010.

We believe a Third Division placement offers Livingston F.C. the chance of continuing their membership of The Scottish Football League.

Note:
Airdrie United F.C. and Cowdenbeath F.C. have been promoted to the First and Second Divisions respectively.


http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news.cfm?curpageid=944&newsid=2837

Did not see this posted any where else. Possibly the best move for them.

Phil D. Rolls
05-08-2009, 04:12 PM
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news.cfm?curpageid=944&newsid=2837

Did not see this posted any where else. Possibly the best move for them.

Mon the Blue Brazil!

Why did they just not put Livi out of the league, and let Spartans in? All they are doing is continuing the farce.

JimBHibees
05-08-2009, 04:13 PM
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news.cfm?curpageid=944&newsid=2837

Did not see this posted any where else. Possibly the best move for them.

Seems unduly harsh IMO to put them in the third division. Given the SFL were wanting them to put up a bond of 720k this season for staying in the fiirst division maybe an indication the people intersted werent prepared or couldnt afford to do that. You have got to wonder if they will still be interested in a 3rd division club with next to no income coming in.

G15 Hibs
05-08-2009, 04:17 PM
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news.cfm?curpageid=944&newsid=2837

Did not see this posted any where else. Possibly the best move for them.

I doubt it's the best move for Livi. The group that were taking over said the other day they were only doing it if they stayed in the First Division and that if they were relegated they'd pull out. It probably means the end of the club.

Not that I'd be that fussed to see them go, mind...

Sylar
05-08-2009, 04:19 PM
Absolute ****ing joke of a decision.

The SFL should be punishing the Pisan *******s who put them into this position, not the group who potentially want to invest and save them.

As I understand it, the SFL still require evidence of a large bond (760k) and the investors stated that they will walk away if the SFL make things difficult - Livingston FC will follow Gretna into the abyss.

All other clubs who are sailing close to the wind will be s***ing themselves now, as the SFL/SPL have set an example.

Mibbes Aye
05-08-2009, 04:20 PM
I realise the SFL and the SPL are different bodies but I hope such a pragmatic and realistic approach is adopted when Homfc's time comes (the clock has never stopped ticking :wink:).

Rather than unduly burdening their colleagues in the SPL with their woes it would be better if they were passported down to the lower reaches ASAP. At least a precedent has been set with Livi.

Mind you, it seems unfair to reward the yams when Spartans have a decent business model. I don't know the regulations for the East of Scotland leagues off-hand. They should maybe think about brushing up on their anti-sectarianism and anti-racism policies in anticipation of some certain visitors from the EH11 area though :agree:

iwasthere1972
05-08-2009, 04:21 PM
I doubt it's the best move for Livi. The group that were taking over said the other day they were only doing it if they stayed in the First Division and that if they were relegated they'd pull out. It probably means the end of the club.

Not that I'd be that fussed to see them go, mind...

Who in their right mind would want to put money into a club that will be playing in front of a few hundred people - maybe 1,000 on a good day next season.

Bleak times ahead I imagine.

A lesson to be learned for other clubs that are prepared to live outwith their means. :wink:

Sylar
05-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Who in their right mind would want to put money into a club that will be playing in front of a few hundred people - maybe 1,000 on a good day next season.

Bleak times ahead I imagine.

A lesson to be learned for other clubs that are prepared to live outwith their means. :wink:

But the club (as a business) was fine - Livingston have suffered the same fate Hearts are staring down the barrel of, with one man decimating the entire club. Why is he not being punished?

The scary thing is that Angelo Massone and Thomasso Angelini are free to walk into any other football club and do similar - Massone is also still a registered agent for a handful of players.

They should be prevented from every making another penny from football IMO.

Phil D. Rolls
05-08-2009, 04:27 PM
Who in their right mind would want to put money into a club that will be playing in front of a few hundred people - maybe 1,000 on a good day next season.

Bleak times ahead I imagine.

A lesson to be learned for other clubs that are prepared to live outwith their means. :wink:

And also for Hibs fans who moan about our board.

ps

Tick Tock:devil:

hibsdaft
05-08-2009, 04:47 PM
never mind the implication for Livi - Airdrie up to the 1st division? **** that.

iwasthere1972
05-08-2009, 05:17 PM
never mind the implication for Livi - Airdrie up to the 1st division? **** that.

wee airdrie Jambo agrees. :greengrin

KeithTheHibby
05-08-2009, 05:30 PM
never mind the implication for Livi - Airdrie up to the 1st division? **** that.

That is the most galling thing for me that they spawny *****ers have benefited again through another clubs failing.:grr::grr::grr:

Woody1985
05-08-2009, 06:07 PM
But the club (as a business) was fine - Livingston have suffered the same fate Hearts are staring down the barrel of, with one man decimating the entire club. Why is he not being punished?

The scary thing is that Angelo Massone and Thomasso Angelini are free to walk into any other football club and do similar - Massone is also still a registered agent for a handful of players.

They should be prevented from every making another penny from football IMO.

I'm not saying you're wrong here...

Is there any documented proof that Massone has screwed them?

TBH I've not read anything about the demise of Livi. However, from what I recall as soon as the boy took over there was a dispute of some sort in relation to 600k. IIRC Masson said the boy, Pearse Flynn(?) was due him it as part of an agreement of the takeover. Again, IIRC the funds were within the club and Massone had to pay Flynn.

I think something dodgy has been going on since the start and someone has been ****ed over somewhere down the line. Can anyone elaborate on the timeline of events?

The impression I get from Massone is that he's tried to take over a club and seen it as an easy way to reach the SPL and make a bit of cash. Something along the way has gone drastically wrong. From what I could tell from his body language on TV was that he was genuinely gutted that Livi had gone into adminsinistration.

Mikey
05-08-2009, 06:39 PM
At least they're being consistent. The precedent was set with Gretna and they've done the same with Livi.

I wonder what price you'll get on the yams to win the 3rd division in season 2010/11 :wink:

Jonnyboy
05-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Mon the Blue Brazil!

Why did they just not put Livi out of the league, and let Spartans in? All they are doing is continuing the farce.

As I understand it, Spartans have significant debt and are unable to bring their new stadium up to standard - that is, finish it. I'm told Spartans were let down by a body that was meant to offer up a grant of some sort. If all of that is true then it's unlikely the SFL will admit them

erin-go-bragh87
05-08-2009, 07:40 PM
Livingstone have been relegated to Division 3 for breaching insolvency rules. Surely thats the end of them now....

jabis
05-08-2009, 09:17 PM
I'm not saying you're wrong here...

Is there any documented proof that Massone has screwed them?

TBH I've not read anything about the demise of Livi. However, from what I recall as soon as the boy took over there was a dispute of some sort in relation to 600k. IIRC Masson said the boy, Pearse Flynn(?) was due him it as part of an agreement of the takeover. Again, IIRC the funds were within the club and Massone had to pay Flynn.

I think something dodgy has been going on since the start and someone has been ****ed over somewhere down the line. Can anyone elaborate on the timeline of events?

The impression I get from Massone is that he's tried to take over a club and seen it as an easy way to reach the SPL and make a bit of cash. Something along the way has gone drastically wrong. From what I could tell from his body language on TV was that he was genuinely gutted that Livi had gone into adminsinistration.



3rd division and F****d
what more proof do you need ?

Coco Bryce
05-08-2009, 09:18 PM
Who cares?

Gretna were relegated from the SFL last year, also Airdrie had to start again from Div3, so why should Livingston be an exception?

Ed De Gramo
05-08-2009, 09:22 PM
Thats what they get for bringing in a sugar daddy...Hearts next please

tick tock

Sylar
05-08-2009, 09:58 PM
Thats what they get for bringing in a sugar daddy...Hearts next please

tick tock

What a rediculously uneducated statement.

He inherited the club with c.280k debt from the Flynn regime, with the squad remaining the same, give or take 4 additions during the summer period last year. Massone, for whatever reason, decided not to pay the monthly bills to the council, electricity board, local contractors (who helped refurb the stadium bar) and eventually the players and staff. He said he done this to "prove the Council and fans a lesson".

He continually lied to supporters, SFL officials, local businesses and the media about what was going on behind the scenes, and the full extent of the problems he created has only now become visible. By the time Massone was ousted, the debt at Livingston was 1.7m. This is despite the sale of Leigh Griffiths, David McKay, James McPake and Murray Davidson, which was around 250k. No Livingston fan knows where on Earth 1.5m has gone to, as the squad remained the same, and if anything, decreased in costs as players left. Rumours are abound that Massone pocketed a lot of the money and redeployed it into his own businesses, however, this is nothing more than a rumour.

He was using club funds to pay for a townhouse in Edinburgh, where he resided when not in Italy.

One man alone has turfed a Scottish club out of the game. Since being put into Admin the last time, Livi cleared their board, reduced their squad and were finding a level in the 1st division, until Flynn upped and left.

Angelo Massone is the sole reason for the inevitable dissolution of Livingston FC.

JE89
05-08-2009, 09:59 PM
But the club (as a business) was fine - Livingston have suffered the same fate Hearts are staring down the barrel of, with one man decimating the entire club. Why is he not being punished?

The scary thing is that Angelo Massone and Thomasso Angelini are free to walk into any other football club and do similar - Massone is also still a registered agent for a handful of players.

They should be prevented from every making another penny from football IMO.

:top marks The man is a complete tosser who has ruined a football club. Everybody saying good - think about the supporters - how would you feel if it was Hibs, secondly - the players who have mortgages to pay, families to support. They've not been paid in weeks and can't see them getting paid anytime soon. No doubt players will be released all due to one arrogant pr!ck.


Thats what they get for bringing in a sugar daddy...Hearts next please

tick tock

They didn't have too much choice. And it wasn't the fans or players who brought him in and essentially they are the ones who are punished. The guy should shot

Jonnyboy
05-08-2009, 09:59 PM
Thats what they get for bringing in a sugar daddy...Hearts next please

tick tock

What, you mean like Tom Farmer?

Ed De Gramo
05-08-2009, 10:17 PM
What, you mean like Tom Farmer?

Sir Tom's more like a Sugar Grandad :greengrin

jabis
05-08-2009, 10:47 PM
massone 1.5 million

vlad thinks BIG

tick tock

:wink:

BSEJVT
06-08-2009, 06:48 AM
But the club (as a business) was fine - Livingston have suffered the same fate Hearts are staring down the barrel of, with one man decimating the entire club. Why is he not being punished?

The scary thing is that Angelo Massone and Thomasso Angelini are free to walk into any other football club and do similar - Massone is also still a registered agent for a handful of players.

They should be prevented from every making another penny from football IMO.

Sorry Scott but thats just not accurate.

Livingston have been mismanaged from the word go and the chickens have finally came home to roost.

Woody1985
06-08-2009, 11:53 AM
3rd division and F****d
what more proof do you need ?

Erm, quite a lot actually.

Because it's gone tits up when he was in charge doesn't mean it's all his fault.

That's why I mentioned the thing about the 600k. I don't know the exact scenario but if Massone thought he had that 600k in the bank then they probably wouldn't be where they are now.

Perhaps he was ****ed over when taking over the club and due diligence wasn't carried out correctly, all legal docs signed in relation to who would get what i.e the 600k. Maybe the language barrier was an issue, maybe he employed some donkey to deal with all the legal procedings. Business deals go wrong sometimes. It's not rocket science :wink:

Hibs Class
06-08-2009, 11:54 AM
Who cares?

Gretna were relegated from the SFL last year, also Airdrie had to start again from Div3, so why should Livingston be an exception?

Airdrie isn't a fair comparison. IIRC old Airdrie went into liquidation and were then allowed to fail. Airdrie United then bought out Clydebank FC, relocated them to Airdrie and renamed them, and effectively took their place in the league. So a) there wasn't a similar punishment for old Airdrie as was given to Gretna and Livi and b) Airdrie United effectively hammered the last nail into Clydebank's coffin.

--------
06-08-2009, 12:19 PM
Airdrie isn't a fair comparison. IIRC old Airdrie went into liquidation and were then allowed to fail. Airdrie United then bought out Clydebank FC, relocated them to Airdrie and renamed them, and effectively took their place in the league. So a) there wasn't a similar punishment for old Airdrie as was given to Gretna and Livi and b) Airdrie United effectively hammered the last nail into Clydebank's coffin.


Clydebank were dead and in the coffin.

The Airdrie United people may have screwed down the lid and put the coffin in the back of the hearse, but they didn't kill them off.

I'd say that the Steedman brothers were much more likely suspects - after all, they had previous history in that they made a fair attempt to kill off East Stirlingshire when they set up ES Clydebank in 1965.

And the Bermudan guy (Hall?) who asset-stripped them and used the cash to set up football training centres in the US.

FWIW, I don't get the impression that these reprieves are actually doing Airdrie United a lot of good; they could perhaps do with having a season or two in Div Two to sort themselves out.

But no doubt the idea of Airdrie in trouble will bring much joy to as many of my fellow posters as are already gloating over the demise of Livingston....

Short memories - it could just have been us ourselves not too long ago.

Hiber-nation
06-08-2009, 12:27 PM
What a rediculously uneducated statement.


:wink:

They should have deducted them 30 points like they do in England and saved all this hassle of last minute changes to fixtures for some of the 3rd division clubs struggling to make ends meet.

Sylar
06-08-2009, 12:33 PM
Exactly the point - their decision doesn't just affect Livingston, but to do this with the season only 4 days away from starting, people will have made travel plans, programmes will have been printed, tickets sold, hospitality/sponsor packages sold in preparation for the fixtures which were showing last week.

David Longmuir (the fanny who signed off on this action) looked into the cameras at last week's press conference when Livi were saved and told them "go and prepare for your 1st division campaign".

The entire league management committee should resign en masse, as their action has brought the game into disrepute.

Livi can now appeal the decision, and then appeal the appeal, thus halting all fixtures involving LIvingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath for 6 weeks, so that's another 18 clubs affected and potentially losing revenue from lost fixtures, whilst the whole scenario is resolved?

It's an absolute farce, through to the core.

Jonnyboy
06-08-2009, 12:36 PM
Exactly the point - their decision doesn't just affect Livingston, but to do this with the season only 4 days away from starting, people will have made travel plans, programmes will have been printed, tickets sold, hospitality/sponsor packages sold in preparation for the fixtures which were showing last week.

David Longmuir (the fanny who signed off on this action) looked into the cameras at last week's press conference when Livi were saved and told them "go and prepare for your 1st division campaign".

The entire league management committee should resign en masse, as their action has brought the game into disrepute.

Livi can now appeal the decision, and then appeal the appeal, thus halting all fixtures involving LIvingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath for 6 weeks, so that's another 18 clubs affected and potentially losing revenue from lost fixtures, whilst the whole scenario is resolved?

It's an absolute farce, through to the core.

:top marks

League run by cartoon characters only this aint funny :agree:

--------
06-08-2009, 12:49 PM
Exactly the point - their decision doesn't just affect Livingston, but to do this with the season only 4 days away from starting, people will have made travel plans, programmes will have been printed, tickets sold, hospitality/sponsor packages sold in preparation for the fixtures which were showing last week.

David Longmuir (the fanny who signed off on this action) looked into the cameras at last week's press conference when Livi were saved and told them "go and prepare for your 1st division campaign".

The entire league management committee should resign en masse, as their action has brought the game into disrepute.

Livi can now appeal the decision, and then appeal the appeal, thus halting all fixtures involving LIvingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath for 6 weeks, so that's another 18 clubs affected and potentially losing revenue from lost fixtures, whilst the whole scenario is resolved?

It's an absolute farce, through to the core.


:top marks

Absolutely right.

Hibs Class
06-08-2009, 12:54 PM
Clydebank were dead and in the coffin.

The Airdrie United people may have screwed down the lid and put the coffin in the back of the hearse, but they didn't kill them off.

I'd say that the Steedman brothers were much more likely suspects - after all, they had previous history in that they made a fair attempt to kill off East Stirlingshire when they set up ES Clydebank in 1965.

And the Bermudan guy (Hall?) who asset-stripped them and used the cash to set up football training centres in the US.

FWIW, I don't get the impression that these reprieves are actually doing Airdrie United a lot of good; they could perhaps do with having a season or two in Div Two to sort themselves out.

But no doubt the idea of Airdrie in trouble will bring much joy to as many of my fellow posters as are already gloating over the demise of Livingston....

Short memories - it could just have been us ourselves not too long ago.

Maybe so, but the action Airdrie Utd took killed off any chance of a rescue package that would have led to Clydebank supporters being able to continue to watch their Clydebank team in their Clydebank stadium. Albeit whether any rescue package would have been forthcoming at all or not may be doubtful.

JimBHibees
06-08-2009, 12:54 PM
Exactly the point - their decision doesn't just affect Livingston, but to do this with the season only 4 days away from starting, people will have made travel plans, programmes will have been printed, tickets sold, hospitality/sponsor packages sold in preparation for the fixtures which were showing last week.

David Longmuir (the fanny who signed off on this action) looked into the cameras at last week's press conference when Livi were saved and told them "go and prepare for your 1st division campaign".

The entire league management committee should resign en masse, as their action has brought the game into disrepute.

Livi can now appeal the decision, and then appeal the appeal, thus halting all fixtures involving LIvingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath for 6 weeks, so that's another 18 clubs affected and potentially losing revenue from lost fixtures, whilst the whole scenario is resolved?

It's an absolute farce, through to the core.


Totally agree. Where did this mythical bond thing come into play. What club never mind one with little money would be able to put a bond of that amount of cash aside (720k) and also run the club on an ongoing basis? Given the current economic climate not many.

--------
06-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Maybe so, but the action Airdrie Utd took killed off any chance of a rescue package that would have led to Clydebank supporters being able to continue to watch their Clydebank team in their Clydebank stadium. Albeit whether any rescue package would have been forthcoming at all or not may be doubtful.


They didn't have a stadium, IIRC - they were playing at either Boghead or Cappielow, IIRC.

I recall the last time they played at ER - we were in Div One and just beginning to motor. The team arrived in half-a-dozen cars (no team bus) and their supporters were seated in the top of the South end of the old Main Stand. I remember counting them - 72 in all.

IMO the Steedman brothers were the cancer that took the Bankies down, Hall was the pneumonia that killed them. Ballantyne simply did the burial.

It was a dirty business, I agree, but it seems to be the way we do things in Scottish football. Airdrieonians (the original club) were poorly dealt with both by certain of their own directors and by North Lanarkshire Council in the first place, and the SPL/SFL/SFA crowd weren't exactly outstanding in their superintendance of the attempts by Archibald and his mates to buy the team.

ancient hibee
06-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Doddie -are you having a long lunch hour-you're everywhere?

Have Livi paid the electric bill yet?

jgl07
06-08-2009, 01:56 PM
They didn't have a stadium, IIRC - they were playing at either Boghead or Cappielow, IIRC.

I recall the last time they played at ER - we were in Div One and just beginning to motor. The team arrived in half-a-dozen cars (no team bus) and their supporters were seated in the top of the South end of the old Main Stand. I remember counting them - 72 in all.

IMO the Steedman brothers were the cancer that took the Bankies down, Hall was the pneumonia that killed them. Ballantyne simply did the burial.

Clydebank are thriving since the event. Ballentyne handed over the club name and crest and rights associated with it to Clydebank supporters. They returned to Junior football (where they were until the Steedmans bought out East Stirlingshire). They are run by a supporters trust and were finaislst in the Scottish Junior Cup last season.

The old Clydebank needed to be put of its misery. No ground, no support (they printed every season ticket holders name in the programme), and a prospect of slow decline and death.

--------
06-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Clydebank are thriving since the event. Ballentyne handed over the club name and crest and rights associated with it to Clydebank supporters. They returned to Junior football (where they were until the Steedmans bought out East Stirlingshire). They are run by a supporters trust and were finaislst in the Scottish Junior Cup last season.

The old Clydebank needed to be put of its misery. No ground, no support (they printed every season ticket holders name in the programme), and a prospect of slow decline and death.



:agree: That's my understanding, too.

Terrific credit's due to the supporters and the Trust who run the club.

I sometimes think that if the OF would indeed do what so many of us would like them to do, and the rest of Scottish football followed in Clydebank's footsteps - back to the roots - the game would be a lot healthier in the long run.

Dunno how you'd work out the details for the likes of ourselves, and Vlad wouldn't go away cos he'd see it as his last chance for world domination, but it's a nice thought.

Phil D. Rolls
06-08-2009, 02:17 PM
Maybe so, but the action Airdrie Utd took killed off any chance of a rescue package that would have led to Clydebank supporters being able to continue to watch their Clydebank team in their Clydebank stadium. Albeit whether any rescue package would have been forthcoming at all or not may be doubtful.

Given that they were ground sharing with Dumbarton by this stage, the dream of their own stadium was long gone.

Personally, I'd rather see Airdrie (despite their many faults) in the league before Clydebank. That club contributed zip to the Scottish game.

Hibs Class
06-08-2009, 02:22 PM
Oops - I did a bit of googling after the responses to my first post. I had forgotten about the attempts to move Clydebank to Ireland, and hadn't realised that the owners tried to dispose of the club as a franchise to other places, including Carlisle and Galashiels. Perhaps it wasn't such shameless opportunism by Airdire after all!

Speedway
06-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Lesson to Livi: Don't count your chickens in one basket.

IWasThere2016
06-08-2009, 02:33 PM
Exactly the point - their decision doesn't just affect Livingston, but to do this with the season only 4 days away from starting, people will have made travel plans, programmes will have been printed, tickets sold, hospitality/sponsor packages sold in preparation for the fixtures which were showing last week.

David Longmuir (the fanny who signed off on this action) looked into the cameras at last week's press conference when Livi were saved and told them "go and prepare for your 1st division campaign".

The entire league management committee should resign en masse, as their action has brought the game into disrepute.

Livi can now appeal the decision, and then appeal the appeal, thus halting all fixtures involving LIvingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath for 6 weeks, so that's another 18 clubs affected and potentially losing revenue from lost fixtures, whilst the whole scenario is resolved?

It's an absolute farce, through to the core.

The decision might be farcical (eg timing, logistics etc ) but is it wrong? Not IMHO.


Livingston have been mismanaged from the word go and the chickens have finally came home to roost.

:agree:

Sylar
06-08-2009, 02:56 PM
The decision might be farcical (eg timing, logistics etc ) but is it wrong? Not IMHO.



Yes, I do think it's the wrong decision:

Posting a 720k bond, plus a points deduction (which would have guaranteed relegation naturally, at the end of the year without all this turmoil) would have been punishment enough.

They're also punishing the wrong people.

wazoo1875
12-08-2009, 11:15 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/8196432.stm
Nice to see someone sticking their oar in on behalf of Livi , they are not a lot of peoples favourite cup of tea and they are by no means mine . But they have been treated very harshly by the beaks on this . I hope their appeal is successful and they are reinstated to where they should be .

GordonR
12-08-2009, 11:19 AM
I suspect that Dundee - no strangers themselves to dodgy finances and 'colourful' owners - are just feart they'll be next...

IWasThere2016
12-08-2009, 11:26 AM
I suspect that Dundee - no strangers themselves to dodgy finances and 'colourful' owners - are just feart they'll be next...

No chance. Try Airdire, Clyde, Pars, Muthas or the Yams though

wazoo1875
12-08-2009, 11:26 AM
I suspect that Dundee - no strangers themselves to dodgy finances and 'colourful' owners - are just feart they'll be next...
I do believe that to be the case , but cannae see them having to much trouble financially for the forseeable future . Their new director geezer has got a fair few quid behind him .

--------
12-08-2009, 11:34 AM
Oops - I did a bit of googling after the responses to my first post. I had forgotten about the attempts to move Clydebank to Ireland, and hadn't realised that the owners tried to dispose of the club as a franchise to other places, including Carlisle and Galashiels. Perhaps it wasn't such shameless opportunism by Airdrie after all!

:agree: Clydebank had already been asset-stripped to the point of death when the chap Ballantyne came along. If there were opportunists in the story, I'd say the Steedmans and Hall fit the bill better than him.

At least Ballantyne didn't hold onto the Clydebank identity/logo etc - the club's back in the Juniors and doing well.

Mind you - Livi aren't exactly going out of their way to win friends and influence people. They were done 3-0 by Albion Rovers last week in the CIS Cup. Rovers were delighted with the result, not least because Livi had described Cliftonhill as a 'slum' and a '****-hole' when they arrived for the game.

Now Cliftonhill isn't exactly the San Siro, but it ain't that bad.