With the Old Firm set to jump ship to England...

[Alicky Ranks]

With the Old Firm desperate to quit Scotland, should we go the whole hog and try for a British League? I think it should be seriously considered as, like it or not, the game would die financially in Scotland if the Old Firm leave. It might be more competitive but any quality would disappear due to a probable absence of any TV money. Scottish football is second rate right now, but it would be third or fourth-rate if the Old Firm leave.

[Slicer]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:

[Wembley67]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:

It would certainly sort the real supporters from the walk up fans :grr:

[Mag7]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:


No way any of the SPL clubs bar the Old Firm would be anywhere near the Premiership, but Hibs would still face some decent teams and at least there would be a lot more variety to the season than the turgid repetitive fare we endure just now.

[500miles]

Would compromise national team, and we would never play European football again. No thanks.

[GreenPJ]

IMHO the quality in the Scottish League would improve without the OF.

Rantic would be spending big on foreign players to stay competitive and therefore not looking to steal good scottish prospects to sit on the bench before heading to the Championship.

There could be realistically 5 teams challenging for the league every year without the OF, that has to be better entertainment, we could increase the league to 16, play everyone twice, cut down on Sunday football (not against Friday nights and Saturday nights though).

Yes there would be a fall in revenue, however, I think ultimately more people would go to games, especially with only playing people twice and possibly challenging for the league.

[Alex B]

Beats me why anyone would say no to a UK league. The SPL is dead on its feet and set to slide further into the backwaters when Setanta goes bust. Without the Old Firm it would be a like a slightly higher standard Welsh League. Competitive yes but low in quality and possibly played in by part-time or amateur teams. Compare that to some cracking away trips down south and there's no argument. Bring it on.

[steakbake]

Ridiculous idea.

I wouldn't look forward to scrapping it out with Scunthorpe or being in a relegation battle with the Mighty Hereford.

The funny thing is, when people suggest this they tend to totally under estimate and talk down our own league as it is yet at the same time, totally over-estimate where we would likely be in such a UK league.

Do you really think people are going to keep going to ER if on offer was Hibs v Wycombe? Or if we're being really optimistic, Hibs v Doncaster?

If you look at the vast majority of leagues in Europe, the Champions League places tend to go to the same 2, 3 or 4 teams each year. Anything else is an interesting exception. It is false to suggest that Scotland is the only place where a couple of teams seem to have a monopoly on the title.

Quite apart from all that, it would be the death knell for the Scottish national team.

[sahib]

Would compromise national team, and we would never play European football again. No thanks.


We hardly ever play European football anyway and judging by the crowds for the uefa games down south, or our last intertoto outing, it is losing it's appeal. I think the main drawback is the traveling distances, in a world with the energy running out. What midlands club, say, would want a poorly supported Scottish team, in their league, to the exclusion of a lucrative local derby.

[steakbake]

We hardly ever play European football anyway and judging by the crowds for the uefa games down south, or our last intertoto outing, it is losing it's appeal. I think the main drawback is the traveling distances, in a world with the energy running out. What midlands club, say, would want a poorly supported Scottish team, in their league, to the exclusion of a lucrative local derby.

Therein also lies the rub - which English teams are going to green-light 12 Scottish teams coming into their league?

Presumably we'd all have to start in something like the Conference?

Given that it would take us 2-3 years before we even got near anything like appealling or financially viable set of fixtures, we'd be out of money, short on fans and starting threads on here suggesting that we establish a Scottish league.

[Barrylavety]

Therein also lies the rub - which English teams are going to green-light 12 Scottish teams coming into their league?

Presumably we'd all have to start in something like the Conference?

Given that it would take us 2-3 years before we even got near anything like appealling or financially viable set of fixtures, we'd be out of money, short on fans and starting threads on here suggesting that we establish a Scottish league.

:agree:

[zlatan]

Should we go the whole hog and try for a British League? I think it should be seriously considered as, like it or not, the game would die financially in Scotland if the Old Firm leave. It might be more competitive but any quality would disappear due to a probable absence of any TV money. Scottish football is second rate right now, but it would be third or fourth-rate if the Old Firm leave.

And?

The standard of Scottish football right now is at an all time low and we're still going to see us compete for 6th place, if it was to drop to Welsh or Irish league standards in return for us to compete for the title then that can only be a good thing.

Plus if we were competing for the SPL title Easter Road would probably be packed every week, sounds great to me.

[heretoday]

Sounds the way ahead because the Scottish League is dying out.

[Biggie]

The balls burst regarding scottish football...any change, bring it on. Same teams week in week out, same league winners year in year out, we need change.

[blaikie]

Give it a chance without the old firm :agree: But the league format in Scotland would have to be corrected maybe a 18 team SPL :confused:

[jgl07]

IMHO the quality in the Scottish League would improve without the OF.

Rantic would be spending big on foreign players to stay competitive and therefore not looking to steal good scottish prospects to sit on the bench before heading to the Championship.

There could be realistically 5 teams challenging for the league every year without the OF, that has to be better entertainment, we could increase the league to 16, play everyone twice, cut down on Sunday football (not against Friday nights and Saturday nights though).

Yes there would be a fall in revenue, however, I think ultimately more people would go to games, especially with only playing people twice and possibly challenging for the league.
Agree 100%.

There would be a sticky season or two with drops in sponsorship and TV money but the competition would be good and the crowds would come back along with some TV money after that. The wages paid would drop so there might be more reliance of home grown players.

An 18 team SPL would be a vastly better product than the lop-sided crazy 12 team competition we have now.

If you look at the average attendances of non-OF Scottish teams, they would struggle to get higher than League One and many would be at Conference level. A British League is not the answer as the travelling costs are already crippling samller Football League teams in England.

[Mag7]

And?

The standard of Scottish football right now is at an all time low and we're still going to see us compete for 6th place, if it was to drop to Welsh or Irish league standards in return for us to compete for the title then that can only be a good thing.

Plus if we were competing for the SPL title Easter Road would probably be packed every week, sounds great to me.

Not if the standard was Welsh or Irish league level. We'd never fill Easter Road again.

[Hainan Hibs]

A big no from me. Away to Scunthorpe and MK Dons, jesus, I need a new pair of pants for that one, cannae contain my excitement:bitchy:

Change the league to 16 or 18 team league, with two divisions then regional leagues, with relegation and promotion of 2 or 3 teams throughout. Restructure the league cup so it's back to the old format and the final is early in the season. Put some excitement into Scottish Football.

With less money Scottish teams would be forced to play youngsters which would be a good thing, and hopefully a few more Scot Browns and Derek Riordans are brought through.

Spicing up Scottish football is the answer, not wasting away in League 1 or League 2 of England.

And one final thing, lets talk ourselves up a wee bit. The doom and gloom view will get us nowhere.

[jgl07]

Not if the standard was Welsh or Irish league level. We'd never fill Easter Road again.
I seem to recall Easter Road being fairly full in Division One especially the final match against Falkirk.

Are you suggesting that an OF-free SPL would be of lower standard than Division One.

[Bishop Hibee]

Non-story. Won't happen.

Wish they would both **** off to England though.

[Mag7]

I seem to recall Easter Road being fairly full in Division One especially the final match against Falkirk.

Are you suggesting that an OF-free SPL would be of lower standard than Division One.

An OF-free SPL would ultimately become no better than Division One because it couldn't sustain full-time football. While it was nice to be winning every week, the underlying reason fans turned out in force for the Division One campaign was because they knew the reward for getting out of that league was to get back to the SPL. If there was nothing more on offer than Division One football on a permanent basis crowds would plummet.

[steakbake]

Sounds the way ahead because the Scottish League is dying out.

I'm not sure that it is dying out. More realistic is that it is being killed.

Either get shot of the OF, or redistribute the money better and increase the top league to 16 teams. 2 up, 2 down.

Consult to restructure Highland and junior leagues to feed into the 3rd division.

Finally, make the CIS cup actually worth something but allocating a european place to it. It's in our FA's power to do so, so why not?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Let's not kid our ourselves that anyone who is pushing this south of the border, is interested in any other teams apart from the OF. This would a bit like Wallet Merger's idea of an Edinburgh United when all he wanted was Andy Goram and the land. If they go, then stand by for the idea of their reserve teams playing in the league set up, but this time with no bar on promotion. Everyone in the Glasmedia papers will tell you that the SPL is nothing without the O/F, but the reality is the same back. If they end up in limbo playing each other week in week out, then so be it, but the sceptic in me says that the timing of this story and the news that Satanic want to re-negociate their deal is no coincidence. My take would be that the OF keep the amount they get just now as a deal-breaker to keep them interested, and the rest take less to meet the short-fall.

[VegasHibby]

can't see it happening. Not enough interest south of border.
There should be some kind of U.K. cup though. Think that might be interesting. Top 4 clubs from each nation going into 16 team knockout......

[Onceinawhile]

Would compromise national team, and we would never play European football again. No thanks.

:agree:

Without the Old Firm, Hibs, Hearts, Dundee United and Aberdeen would be in good position to grow.

Rangers and Celtic would become like liverpool or chelsea for a lot of people I think, in that people would "support them" whilst still going to see scottish teams, e.g. wear the strips the way a scottish person can wear an AC milan top but still support hibs.:agree:

[J-C]

Don't think a British league is what we need right now, what about a new cup competition wit the SPL( not the old firm) and say 10-12 teams from Championship and 1st div in the northern part of England, e.g. Barnsley, Doncaster, Middlesborough( if relegated ) etc.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

I'm in favour of a British League in theory. A number of people are assuming we'd be playing the likes of Wycombe and Hereford (no disrespect!) for ever. However, even with two clubs in a city the size of Edinburgh, we should expect to be normally at least in the Championship, playing the likes of Birmingham, Sheffield United / Wednesday, Cardiff, Notts Forest, Crystal Palace, Ipswich.

As for the European argument, I'm afraid being in Europe for one round about every 8 years doesn't really mean that much to me. It was great in the sixties / seventies, being there most seasons, but those days are long gone.

Ultimately, however, I don't think existing English / Welsh clubs would be interested in letting 12, 10, 8 or even 4 Scottish clubs into the present set-up so I don't see it ever happening.

I also accept the international team argument is an important one.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Don't think a British league is what we need right now, what about a new cup competition wit the SPL( not the old firm) and say 10-12 teams from Championship and 1st div in the northern part of England, e.g. Barnsley, Doncaster, Middlesborough( if relegated ) etc.

A British Cup, however structured, is a good idea in itself, if it could be fitted in to a season's fixtures. However, it doesn't address the basic problem of a moribund Scottish League.

[J-C]

A British Cup, however structured, is a good idea in itself, if it could be fitted in to a season's fixtures. However, it doesn't address the basic problem of a moribund Scottish League.


The fact that we may have to face better opposition will help lift the crap we are watching right now in the league, it may also attract a better quality of player here and also more tv monies.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The fact that we may have to face better opposition will help lift the crap we are watching right now in the league, it may also attract a better quality of player here and also more tv monies.

As I say, I'm not against the idea, but I'm not sure how much more TV revenue it would attract in a saturated market and I can't see us attracting better players with the 'incentive' of a couple of games in a British or North British Cup.

[Benny Brazil]

Am I missing something here - where is it stated that the Old Firm are definitely upping sticks and moving to play in the English leagues?
I know they would like to, but there are too many obstacles for them to overcome to get their wish.
Unfortunately we are stuck with them.

If it were to happen, I think Scottish Football would benefit greatly, I thought at the time a few years ago that we missed a huge opportunity when we had the chance to punt the Old Firm when some of the Chairmen of SPL clubs bottled it - imagine having a league where 5 or six teams could actually win it?
Think about how much more of an opportunity we would have to win the Holy Grail (ok taking that one a bit far!) there would be more competition throughout the league, in the Cups more teams into Europe rather than just the Old Firm and some token UEFA Cup places. Yes the TV money may dry up for the first season or two but once the TV Companies see some genuine competition up in Scotland rather than just 4 Old Firm games a season or as it is in England where only 4 teams have a chance of winning Premiership, then I think the likes of Sky would be more than interested.

Would be good for the National Team as well, more home grown youngsters getting an opportunity to play in the SPL if it were increased to 18 teams - playing against better quality players each week can only help them improve.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Am I missing something here - where is it stated that the Old Firm are definitely upping sticks and moving to play in the English leagues?
I know they would like to, but there are too many obstacles for them to overcome to get their wish.
Unfortunately we are stuck with them.

If it were to happen, I think Scottish Football would benefit greatly, I thought at the time a few years ago that we missed a huge opportunity when we had the chance to punt the Old Firm when some of the Chairmen of SPL clubs bottled it - imagine having a league where 5 or six teams could actually win it?
Think about how much more of an opportunity we would have to win the Holy Grail (ok taking that one a bit far!) there would be more competition throughout the league, in the Cups more teams into Europe rather than just the Old Firm and some token UEFA Cup places. Yes the TV money may dry up for the first season or two but once the TV Companies see some genuine competition up in Scotland rather than just 4 Old Firm games a season or as it is in England where only 4 teams have a chance of winning Premiership, then I think the likes of Sky would be more than interested.

Would be good for the National Team as well, more home grown youngsters getting an opportunity to play in the SPL if it were increased to 18 teams - playing against better quality players each week can only help them improve.

How would we have more teams in Europe? I suspect we would soon have fewer, as our UEFA coefficient inevitably fell. Sure all of them would be non OF teams but that may only be two or three at most.

[Benny Brazil]

How would we have more teams in Europe? I suspect we would soon have fewer, as our UEFA coefficient inevitably fell. Sure all of them would be non OF teams but that may only be two or three at most.


Meant more non Old Firm teams in Europe. No guarantee that our co-efficient would drop, it may in the short term but I would hope it would pick up after that.

[Mag7]

Am I missing something here - where is it stated that the Old Firm are definitely upping sticks and moving to play in the English leagues?I know they would like to, but there are too many obstacles for them to overcome to get their wish.
Unfortunately we are stuck with them.

If it were to happen, I think Scottish Football would benefit greatly, I thought at the time a few years ago that we missed a huge opportunity when we had the chance to punt the Old Firm when some of the Chairmen of SPL clubs bottled it - imagine having a league where 5 or six teams could actually win it?
Think about how much more of an opportunity we would have to win the Holy Grail (ok taking that one a bit far!) there would be more competition throughout the league, in the Cups more teams into Europe rather than just the Old Firm and some token UEFA Cup places. Yes the TV money may dry up for the first season or two but once the TV Companies see some genuine competition up in Scotland rather than just 4 Old Firm games a season or as it is in England where only 4 teams have a chance of winning Premiership, then I think the likes of Sky would be more than interested.

Would be good for the National Team as well, more home grown youngsters getting an opportunity to play in the SPL if it were increased to 18 teams - playing against better quality players each week can only help them improve.

Not definite but a lot more likely than it has been in the past due to the fact the invitation would come from England rather than the OF grovelling to be let in.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.2503041.0.Rumours_and_rows_as_season_h eads_for_frantic_finale.php

[jgl07]

I'm in favour of a British League in theory. A number of people are assuming we'd be playing the likes of Wycombe and Hereford (no disrespect!) for ever. However, even with two clubs in a city the size of Edinburgh, we should expect to be normally at least in the Championship, playing the likes of Birmingham, Sheffield United / Wednesday, Cardiff, Notts Forest, Crystal Palace, Ipswich.

Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield United pull in crowds of 25,000 to 28,000. Forest also have that level of support. Birmingham, Ipswich and Reading attract around 20,000. Palace have around 15,000.

Even the likes of Doncaster and Plymouth have crowds 11,000 to 12,000; similar to Hibs.

Drop down to League One and the likes of Leicester and Leeds attract 25,000 supporters.

Hibs along with Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United would probably fit in somewhere between the bottom third of the Championship and the top end of League One in terms of support and finance.

Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Falkirk, etc would be more likely to fit into League Two or the Conference.

[ScottB]

Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield United pull in crowds of 25,000 to 28,000. Forest also have that level of support. Birmingham, Ipswich and Reading attract around 20,000. Palace have around 15,000.

Even the likes of Doncaster and Plymouth have crowds 11,000 to 12,000; similar to Hibs.

Drop down to League One and the likes of Leicester and Leeds attract 25,000 supporters.

Hibs along with Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United would probably fit in somewhere between the bottom third of the Championship and the top end of League One in terms of support and finance.

Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Falkirk, etc would be more likely to fit into League Two or the Conference.

To my mind a direct comparison is not the best idea.

2 points, I would expect our gates to increase, if we were in say this EPL2 or whatever, we could have the likes of Birmingham, Leeds or whoever coming to play us, I would anticipate these matches attracting bigger crowds than Hibs v St Mirren for the 4th time this year.

Secondly, a vast increase in TV and sponsorship money, consider that Championship clubs can currently easily outspend Rantic. I could easily envisage a Hibs at Championship / EPL2 level, pulling in gates of at least our current capacity with a lot more money coming in would be able to compete. I think most would agree Mowbray and Collins had teams built on shoestrings that would have been able to mix it at that level, it's not hard to imagine that with increased funding we could do that.


Not that I'm suggesting this is in any way something I'd like to see happen, but I think people forget the differences between the leagues when comparing them. Hell if you gave us the TV money of a current EPL club I reckon its not inconcievable that we could compete in the bottom half of that league.

[jgl07]

To my mind a direct comparison is not the best idea.

2 points, I would expect our gates to increase, if we were in say this EPL2 or whatever, we could have the likes of Birmingham, Leeds or whoever coming to play us, I would anticipate these matches attracting bigger crowds than Hibs v St Mirren for the 4th time this year.

Secondly, a vast increase in TV and sponsorship money, consider that Championship clubs can currently easily outspend Rantic. I could easily envisage a Hibs at Championship / EPL2 level, pulling in gates of at least our current capacity with a lot more money coming in would be able to compete. I think most would agree Mowbray and Collins had teams built on shoestrings that would have been able to mix it at that level, it's not hard to imagine that with increased funding we could do that.

Not that I'm suggesting this is in any way something I'd like to see happen, but I think people forget the differences between the leagues when comparing them. Hell if you gave us the TV money of a current EPL club I reckon its not inconcievable that we could compete in the bottom half of that league.
With a 16,000 capacity stadium?

[Hibbyradge]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:

You think we'd be in the EPL?

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

No no no no no no.

[ScottB]

With a 16,000 capacity stadium?

You mean 17,500?

Yes I think we would, we have (with a decent manager) a team that could see off most Championship squads, thats been assembled with peanuts, If we were in the EPL we'd have tens of millions more pounds coming in. We could build a much better first team.

I'm speaking hypothetically of course. But the idea that we'd sink like a stone is nonsense. We have little debt and would get a massive increase in income.

[sesoim]

No. I just want rid of the OF so we can go for the treble every season. And then the Champions league!

[basehibby]

No way any of the SPL clubs bar the Old Firm would be anywhere near the Premiership, but Hibs would still face some decent teams and at least there would be a lot more variety to the season than the turgid repetitive fare we endure just now.

Not true - if the likes of Charlton, Stoke, Reading and Watford can get to the EPL then there's no reason the likes of Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen couldn't do it too.

Next to no chance of Europe though and you could kiss goodbye to the national side - so there's absolutely no way I'd want to see this happening.

If Rantic and Celgers want to go and the English are fool enough to take them then fair enough - would have to be a clean break though with absolutely no participation from the OF in cups, reserve leagues or anything else - in fact, if at all possible, why not just move them down south lock stock and barrel??? (works well enough in the USA)

[sesoim]

Don't think a British league is what we need right now, what about a new cup competition wit the SPL( not the old firm) and say 10-12 teams from Championship and 1st div in the northern part of England, e.g. Barnsley, Doncaster, Middlesborough( if relegated ) etc.


I think the League Cups in England and Scotland should be combined to make a British Cup. It could be structured so that the big teams don't have to play any extra games - there could be a couple of preliminary rounds to get the number down to 64 at which point the Premiership teams and the teams in Europe from Scotland could join in.

I don't think anybody would lose out - and it would make a nice difference to be playing teams from all round Britain in competitive games instead of the usual Scottish teams.

[DaveHFC]

Not for it myself, would mean the end of the national team and would kill a large part of Scottish football. We need to change the Scottish game for the better not amalgamate with the English leagues.

[heretoday]

If we lost the Old Firm the danger is we would be reduced to the status of Andorra or San Marino with no Champs League place and only one Europa place.

[Gmack7]

i seem to remember 15000+ against raith when we were in the first {NEW YEAR/BOXING DAY I THINK}.people will come and watch a winning team any team that had a chance of winning the new set up would attract bigger crowds IMO. BRING IT ON.

[basehibby]

If we lost the Old Firm the danger is we would be reduced to the status of Andorra or San Marino with no Champs League place and only one Europa place.

Eh??? Youre comparing the whole of Scotland (minus the Old Squirm) to a couple of city states with a combined population less than that of Dundee :confused:

I think a more meaningful comparison would be to the likes of Norway, Denmark and Slovakia - all of whom incidentally had a team in the Champions League qualifiers this season.

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

Eh??? Youre comparing the whole of Scotland (minus the Old Squirm) to a couple of city states with a combined population less than that of Dundee :confused:

I think a more meaningful comparison would be to the likes of Norway, Denmark and Slovakia - all of whom incidentally had a team in the Champions League qualifiers this season.

Exactly. We'd be no worse off than the likes of the Swedes and Norwegians.

[ancienthibby]

Really think it's a long shot that we could get rid of the rancid twins and have the opportunity to completely revitalise football north of the border!! But here's hoping!!

A new 18-team SPL (as has been suggested) competing in Europe as so many small nations of our size do, taking in £10 million (or thereabouts) for the SPL winner would completely regenerate all of Aberdeen, Arabs, Hibs and Hearts (and a few surprises to boot!).

Bring it on, I say!!

[CapitalHibs]

Does anybody remember the Texaco Cup? Wasn't that between Scottish and English clubs? Don't think that managed to draw in massive attendances.

[J-C]

Does anybody remember the Texaco Cup? Wasn't that between Scottish and English clubs? Don't think that managed to draw in massive attendances.


The Texaco Cup was an association football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football) competition that involved clubs from the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) and Republic of Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) which had not qualified for European competitions. Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Ireland) clubs withdrew from the competition in 1973-74 and from 1974 to 1975 competed in a separate Texaco Cup. The tournament was sponsored by American petroleum giant Texaco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texaco), who owned service stations in the United Kingdom at the time. In its first two seasons, attendances for many sides were comparable to those for European matches and Scottish clubs fared well against their English counterparts. However, from 1973 onwards, English sides dominated, causing all-English fixtures which spectators found unattractive and stayed away.
The cup became the Anglo-Scottish Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Scottish_Cup) from 1975 after the withdrawal of Texaco's sponsorship

[heretoday]

Eh??? Youre comparing the whole of Scotland (minus the Old Squirm) to a couple of city states with a combined population less than that of Dundee :confused:

I think a more meaningful comparison would be to the likes of Norway, Denmark and Slovakia - all of whom incidentally had a team in the Champions League qualifiers this season.

Oh well that's all right then.

[ballengeich]

Eh??? Youre comparing the whole of Scotland (minus the Old Squirm) to a couple of city states with a combined population less than that of Dundee :confused:

I think a more meaningful comparison would be to the likes of Norway, Denmark and Slovakia - all of whom incidentally had a team in the Champions League qualifiers this season.

In light of our recent Intertoto exploits, this would mean improvement.

[Septimus]

[QUOTE=blacksaltire;2008835]
redistribute the money better

This is the real problem. The Scottish League is run for the benefit of the Old Firm and until the finances generated by the game in Scotland are more evenly distributed it will never be a competitive league. The OF claim they need the money to compete in Europe. Better by far if they were bringing their own boys through a coaching system rather than being parasites on the "smaller" teams and creaming off the talent after it has been developed for them.

As for a British Cup I was one of 117,060 at Hampden when we played Celtic in the final of the Coronation Cup. These days are gone of course as are the days when we could put out a team loaded with Scotttish international players. No harm in dreaming though.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Definitely not a British League. You will be suggesting next we have a British team in the Olympics!!!!!

Best thing that could happen to Scottish football is for that pair to leave us. I personally think the league would grow in stature and depth because of the competitiveness. One question though, if this new 6/5 rule (or whatever the number is) comes into force, would they be looking for Scottish players as they are based here, or English players as they play in that league? I also feel that this may bring some kids back into playing football again as they don't see 11 foreigners playing for their local team and feel they just might have a chance.

[lucky]

The OF will go, it might not be this time but they will go, I favour a British league, we would be a championship club we might in time scape into EPL2. It has to be better than this or the possibility of an even lower standard. we struggle to compete with championship and league 1 teams already on wages so a league with BBC alba TV money would a joke league

[PeeKay]

The OF will go, it might not be this time but they will go, I favour a British league, we would be a championship club we might in time scape into EPL2. It has to be better than this or the possibility of an even lower standard. we struggle to compete with championship and league 1 teams already on wages so a league with BBC alba TV money would a joke league

The OF will only be allowed to join the EPL if it is in the financial interests of the the exiting member clubs. I am not convinced that this will ever be the case, and in fact memories of events in Manchester last year will raise fears that the OF will damage the "brand".

[Ritchie]

IMHO the quality in the Scottish League would improve without the OF.

Rantic would be spending big on foreign players to stay competitive and therefore not looking to steal good scottish prospects to sit on the bench before heading to the Championship.

There could be realistically 5 teams challenging for the league every year without the OF, that has to be better entertainment, we could increase the league to 16, play everyone twice, cut down on Sunday football (not against Friday nights and Saturday nights though).

Yes there would be a fall in revenue, however, I think ultimately more people would go to games, especially with only playing people twice and possibly challenging for the league.

:top marks

i've been saying this ever since they first started talking about Ranctic moving down south.

yeh there would be a fall in revenue but it would only last a couple of seasons at the most, which will be perfect timing to bring through players from the youth teams.

It wouldnt be long until people would realise how more competitive the SPL would be and interest would grow and teh money would return.

[ChrissyG1875]

Ridiculous idea.

I wouldn't look forward to scrapping it out with Scunthorpe or being in a relegation battle with the Mighty Hereford.

The funny thing is, when people suggest this they tend to totally under estimate and talk down our own league as it is yet at the same time, totally over-estimate where we would likely be in such a UK league.

Do you really think people are going to keep going to ER if on offer was Hibs v Wycombe? Or if we're being really optimistic, Hibs v Doncaster?

If you look at the vast majority of leagues in Europe, the Champions League places tend to go to the same 2, 3 or 4 teams each year. Anything else is an interesting exception. It is false to suggest that Scotland is the only place where a couple of teams seem to have a monopoly on the title.

Quite apart from all that, it would be the death knell for the Scottish national team.

Completely disagree. we're definitely a championship quality team. I think most people would agree that we're better than your derby countys and crystal palaces.

[rightwinger]

If the game would die without the OF then that's for us to deal with - at least we'd have our destiny in our own hands. At least we'd have a level playing field.

The onus would then be on the rest to start from scratch and build from the ground up again. There would be less money in the game for a while but it would be distributed with more equality. Less tv money, I believe, would result in less televised games and bigger crowds. That is, provided ticket prices are more realistic.

Players wages would have to drop a bit too. But the players here would have a much more realistic and fairer chance of succeeding in all competitions - with Champions League football an eminently possible target.

Improvements in wages and money would have to be earned, deserved, merited - as opposed to the current 'handout to a 2nd class citizen culture' of the SPL

In other words the Scottish game would be back in the real world. Mediocre clubs would get mediocre money for participating in mediocre matches televised on a mediocre channel. Mediocre players would earn mediocre money. Mediocre pundits would give mediocre analysis on mediocre highlights shows. As it stands, the game up here's already ticking several of those boxes with the OF. If there's less games on tv, cheaper ticket prices, more saturday games, and less overpaid players, then the real winners are the fans.

As we saw in the 1st division when we got crowds of 15,000 - more than Sunday - for games against Raith, fans follow winning and progressing teams.

So we'd die without the OF. So be it as far as I'm concerned because if our existence is nothing more than a permanent bit part player to two tarnished clubs who are nothing more than legends in their own minds then the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd (once seriously big and respected clubs across Europe) are dead anyway.

I must admit to being a big fan of the English game. I appreciate how the cynics feel towards it but the entertainment value (or 'product' as it's controversially called) is second to none. As a believer in equity and getting what you deserve it would be very satisfying to see a) how the Scottish game copes in he OF's absence and b) the OF going down there and learning what competition is all about from the likes of Burnley and Derby before anybody else.

It's time for the game to stand on its own two feet in Scotland and be true to itself. And if we can't be bothered or aren't good enough to make a good, honest, and successful fist of it without the OF then good riddance to us as well as them.

Get rid of the OF, get back to basics, and build from there.

I'd commit to my season ticket on those grounds more readily than the current ones.

[Keith_M]

I haven't voted because it's a complete non starter, never gonna happen.

[basehibby]

If the game would die without the OF then that's for us to deal with - at least we'd have our destiny in our own hands. At least we'd have a level playing field.

The onus would then be on the rest to start from scratch and build from the ground up again. There would be less money in the game for a while but it would be distributed with more equality. Less tv money, I believe, would result in less televised games and bigger crowds. That is, provided ticket prices are more realistic.

Players wages would have to drop a bit too. But the players here would have a much more realistic and fairer chance of succeeding in all competitions - with Champions League football an eminently possible target.

Improvements in wages and money would have to be earned, deserved, merited - as opposed to the current 'handout to a 2nd class citizen culture' of the SPL

In other words the Scottish game would be back in the real world. Mediocre clubs would get mediocre money for participating in mediocre matches televised on a mediocre channel. Mediocre players would earn mediocre money. Mediocre pundits would give mediocre analysis on mediocre highlights shows. As it stands, the game up here's already ticking several of those boxes with the OF. If there's less games on tv, cheaper ticket prices, more saturday games, and less overpaid players, then the real winners are the fans.

As we saw in the 1st division when we got crowds of 15,000 - more than Sunday - for games against Raith, fans follow winning and progressing teams.

So we'd die without the OF. So be it as far as I'm concerned because if our existence is nothing more than a permanent bit part player to two tarnished clubs who are nothing more than legends in their own minds then the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd (once seriously big and respected clubs across Europe) are dead anyway.

I must admit to being a big fan of the English game. I appreciate how the cynics feel towards it but the entertainment value (or 'product' as it's controversially called) is second to none. As a believer in equity and getting what you deserve it would be very satisfying to see a) how the Scottish game copes in he OF's absence and b) the OF going down there and learning what competition is all about from the likes of Burnley and Derby before anybody else.

It's time for the game to stand on its own two feet in Scotland and be true to itself. And if we can't be bothered or aren't good enough to make a good, honest, and successful fist of it without the OF then good riddance to us as well as them.

Get rid of the OF, get back to basics, and build from there.

I'd commit to my season ticket on those grounds more readily than the current ones.

:top marksExcellent post - so when do we get rid of these lowlife? - canny wait!!! :woohoo::woohoo:

PS - for this to work we'd have to cut them adrift permanently and completely and they'd have to become in effect, English Teams - no room for half baked nonsense like their reserves competing in the cup or whatever - no chance of them qualifying through the backdoor for Europe through Scotland's places (as suggested by some OF apologists in the press) - otherwise we'd run the risk of losing our national side's independance and that is not up for argument.

[Joe Baker II]

i seem to remember 15000+ against raith when we were in the first {NEW YEAR/BOXING DAY I THINK}.people will come and watch a winning team any team that had a chance of winning the new set up would attract bigger crowds IMO. BRING IT ON.

For the umpteenth time our crowds fell overall when in Division 1 in 1998-9, this game on new years day was an exception not the rule.

There are pros (mainly but not all for the OF and the Premiership admittedly) and cons (mainly but not all for the Scottish game) of this but the overall effect on Scottish game will be negative given OF would enjoy even greater share of media coverage and sponsorship monies than they do now.

Jeopardising UK national teams a red herring I think though, UEFA not bothered so would not affect Euro Championships, even if FIFA took action (and would be hard to push through given Wales and numerous other footballing anomalies in current game) , even if they did take such action it could be overturned.

A lot of people are saying OF proposal is the real deal this time btw, wondering if anyone has inside info.

[JimBHibees]

For the umpteenth time our crowds fell overall when in Division 1 in 1998-9, this game on new years day was an exception not the rule.

There are pros (mainly but not all for the OF and the Premiership admittedly) and cons (mainly but not all for the Scottish game) of this but the overall effect on Scottish game will be negative given OF would enjoy even greater share of media coverage and sponsorship monies than they do now.

Jeopardising UK national teams a red herring I think though, UEFA not bothered so would not affect Euro Championships, even if FIFA took action (and would be hard to push through given Wales and numerous other footballing anomalies in current game) , even if they did take such action it could be overturned.

A lot of people are saying OF proposal is the real deal this time btw, wondering if anyone has inside info.

Why would English teams vote for Scottish teams to come into their league who could effectively take their place in the years ahead. What was the vote last time 20-0 against?

[JimBHibees]

The OF will only be allowed to join the EPL if it is in the financial interests of the the exiting member clubs. I am not convinced that this will ever be the case, and in fact memories of events in Manchester last year will raise fears that the OF will damage the "brand".

Totally agree. Why do the EPL which we are constantly bombarded with as the best league in the world need 2 more teams who have the potential to tarnish their brand with the pseudo religious/politics nonsense?

I think there would be loads of trouble more than likely when visiting teams come to Glasgow

[cwilliamson85]

I Honestly cant wait for the OF to go south and watch them rot in mid table and see a scottish league of 20 teams (like the premiership now) and you play each oter twice with playoffs for relegations and promotions. A lot more exciting and will attract more sponsorships. Look at the French league, great standard of football and getting a lot more coverage due to that fact.

[Joe Baker II]

The OF will only be allowed to join the EPL if it is in the financial interests of the the exiting member clubs. I am not convinced that this will ever be the case, and in fact memories of events in Manchester last year will raise fears that the OF will damage the "brand".

This argument is illogical (and although repeating myself this year have to remember that both OF sets of fans have frequently been prasied for conduct in England and they are regularly chosen for testimonial games so cannot highlight UEFA final as typical -though I realise many Hibs fans will prefer to ignore this) :

it is like saying English clubs should never have been allowed back in to Europe after Heysel and various incidents because they would "damage the UEFA brand"

and if Cardiff get to Premiership (and Swansea can still make play offs) it is not being suggested that they should not be allowed, although both clubs contribute disproportionately towards crowd trouble in England

[Keith_M]

For the umpteenth time our crowds fell overall when in Division 1 in 1998-9, this game on new years day was an exception not the rule.





The crowds at the start of the season, before the improvement in performances and results, were poor (below 8,000 in some cases). Also, the average visiting support was greatly reduced, especially with no Rantic or Hearts. This is why the average for the season isn't particularly high.

However, If you take the Hibs support alone from the time that Hibs started to dominate the league, about November, the support was incredibly good. That's the point that is being made for 'the umpteenth time', and is still valid, that when Hibs were dominating the league the support was much higher than in a lot of SPL seasons since.

Do you get it now?


Oh and as for the game on new years day being an exception.... Hibs played 3 home games in the space of 2 weeks (including the one you mentioned) and the combined attendance was 39,000, an average of 13,000 per game. Hardly an exception, is it.

[Keith_M]

and although repeating myself this year have to remember that both OF sets of fans have frequently been prasied for conduct in England


So you'll be able to furnish us Hibs fans with lots of examples then....

[Hibs On Tour]

And?

The standard of Scottish football right now is at an all time low and we're still going to see us compete for 6th place, if it was to drop to Welsh or Irish league standards in return for us to compete for the title then that can only be a good thing.

Plus if we were competing for the SPL title Easter Road would probably be packed every week, sounds great to me.

So, dropping the standards on offer to the paying supporters 'can only be a good thing'? Not from where I'm sitting! The standard on offer right now is bloody awful a lot of the time, one thing I'm definitely NOT looking for is for it to actually get worse!

Have to say, I'm not one of those who agrees with the 'get the big teams out of the way then I'll be happy winning the league' arguement. What next? If Aberdeen and Dundee United had another resurgance and the new firm got good do we ship them off down South too and just keep doing that until we're the top dogs? Its not worth winning anything that way IMHO...

[Hibs On Tour]

:top marks

i've been saying this ever since they first started talking about Ranctic moving down south.

yeh there would be a fall in revenue but it would only last a couple of seasons at the most, which will be perfect timing to bring through players from the youth teams.

It wouldnt be long until people would realise how more competitive the SPL would be and interest would grow and teh money would return.

Sorry but think that is dreamland stuff.

The TV money would drop to a pittance compared to what it is now without the OF and although we [along with all the others] would obviously get a bigger share of it, chances are it would be significantly less overall. And no, that shortfall would be unlikely to be met by massively increased gates [we only fill ER for games against the OF or Hearts remember] and no, the TV money wouldn't be returning...

[J-C]

If the OF did bugger off, then they wouldn't get the chance ti steal all the good young talent from the other SPL teams as they do right now. If they're plying their trade down south then they'd be vying with other EPL clubs which will push the price of our players up. This in turn will make the standard of football here better with more meaningful games.

[Hibs On Tour]

If the OF did bugger off, then they wouldn't get the chance ti steal all the good young talent from the other SPL teams as they do right now. If they're plying their trade down south then they'd be vying with other EPL clubs which will push the price of our players up. This in turn will make the standard of football here better with more meaningful games.

Would change absolutely nothing. Nothing to stop any interested EPL sides bumping prices up now.

[J-C]

Would change absolutely nothing. Nothing to stop any interested EPL sides bumping prices up now.

The fact that the OF try and buy our players for literally nowt at the moment is in itself shocking, at least with them down south we'd get a realistic price for any of our young players. Petrie has at least been stubborn enough with the OF and we tend to get what we want but not the other clubs.

[Joe Baker II]

So you'll be able to furnish us Hibs fans with lots of examples then....

Newcastle
Liverpool
Southampton
Ipswich
London clubs (several times)
Manchester several times (Celtic only!)

[Joe Baker II]

The crowds at the start of the season, before the improvement in performances and results, were poor (below 8,000 in some cases). Also, the average visiting support was greatly reduced, especially with no Rantic or Hearts. This is why the average for the season isn't particularly high.

However, If you take the Hibs support alone from the time that Hibs started to dominate the league, about November, the support was incredibly good. That's the point that is being made for 'the umpteenth time', and is still valid, that when Hibs were dominating the league the support was much higher than in a lot of SPL seasons since.

Do you get it now?

Oh and as for the game on new years day being an exception.... Hibs played 3 home games in the space of 2 weeks (including the one you mentioned) and the combined attendance was 39,000, an average of 13,000 per game. Hardly an exception, is it.

Your 39,000 statistic (in fact I think figure for the 3 games around Christmas against Falkirk, Raith and Ayr was nearer 42,000 which I know does not help my argument but so be it) was an exception for that season.

For much of rest of 1998-99 attendances were around 8,000 (even after the brief peak at christmas/new year), while in 1997-98 crowds for most games (and for that matter in most subsequent seasons other than 2000-01 when crowds partly affected by stadium redvelopment and the 2 Williamson years) exceeded 10,000.

I do accept Hibs crowds were overall decent in Division 1 (certainly in relation to comparatives for other subsequently relegated clubs) but even if you exclude away fans Hibs crowds were down in Division 1 from those in Premier League, in a season where they dominated - it certainly does not indicate that a league without the OF would result in increased interest in other Scottish clubs as many seem to believe.

[Joe Baker II]

Why would English teams vote for Scottish teams to come into their league who could effectively take their place in the years ahead. What was the vote last time 20-0 against?

Don't disagree but ask the Bolton chairman.

[Tomsk]

Newcastle
Liverpool
Southampton
Ipswich
London clubs (several times)
Manchester several times (Celtic only!)

Now that is strong. Man, that is a mighty powerful body of evidence you've produced there. It's going to be tough to counter that.

I don't know about everyone else but I'm convinced.

[ancient hibee]

You mean 17,500?

Yes I think we would, we have (with a decent manager) a team that could see off most Championship squads, thats been assembled with peanuts, If we were in the EPL we'd have tens of millions more pounds coming in. We could build a much better first team.

I'm speaking hypothetically of course. But the idea that we'd sink like a stone is nonsense. We have little debt and would get a massive increase in income.
I'll have what he's on:greengrin

[ancient hibee]

There is absolutely no way the elite english clubs will allow this.At the moment the real TV money is split over 20 clubs there is no chance of them allowing another 16 clubs to share that.

[ScottB]

I'll have what he's on:greengrin

I dont see whats so dreamland about it! I'd think financially we will be in a better state than a lot of clubs floating around the Championship level, but earning many times less TV and sponsorship money. We have played plenty low end Premiership teams in (admittedly) friendly matches in recent years and we havent come off badly.

Football is all about money, any team can win anything if you throw enough money at them.


As for the Old Firm, them going South will only happen if / when the TV cash starts to decrease, then adding 2 clubs with a large support base becomes very attractive to SKY, Setanta and everyone else. That will be the driver, not a desire for more competition, it will be to keep the EPL in the financial clouds for a few years longer.

5 - 10 years ago I'd have actually backed them to get into the Euro places before long, when they had strong squads by anyones measure, but now even with the increase in cash they'd get they don't have a hope of competiting with the the business end of the table. And as I said, it's all about the money.

[Keith_M]

Newcastle
Liverpool
Southampton
Ipswich
London clubs (several times)
Manchester several times (Celtic only!)


No not the games played, I was asking for evidence of this


both OF sets of fans have frequently been praised for conduct in England

[JimBHibees]

Completely disagree. we're definitely a championship quality team. I think most people would agree that we're better than your derby countys and crystal palaces.

I think both they teams would horse Hibs at the moment.

[Squibbit]

Good god...as if the Championship wasn't stressful enough for Forest without you lot coming down to challenge us too! Will you at least give us a couple of seasons to get a foothold? :greengrin

[Joe Baker II]

No not the games played, I was asking for evidence of this

they were praised at all these venues, even after Manchester last year the Council said Rangers are welcome back any time!

[Joe Baker II]

I think both they teams would horse Hibs at the moment.

Bit like the meaningless argument that current OF squads would struggle in Premiership - we would get a bit more money if theoretical British league happended so would probably move closer to teams like Derby although there are other disadvanages - not sure they would horse us but agree they are probably better.

[ChrissyG1875]

I think both they teams would horse Hibs at the moment.


IMHO I believe that we would be battling at the top end of the championship, perhaps not at the moment with the current manager however we should be expected to regularly beat teams of the standard of Derby County.

[mouvran]

I think both they teams would horse Hibs at the moment.

I would of thought so before i watched these teams. I have seen Derby on a fair few occasions this season and last and they play absolutely terrible football and from what i've seen would struggle to beat the likes of Inverness and Falkirk. I am pretty confident that we could do better than derby are doing. Although i do feel that this whole debate is stupid because there is no way there will be a British league - many proposals like this have been made in the past and they have all, obviously, failed and i can't see anything like this happening in the future.

[ChrissyG1875]

I would of thought so before i watched these teams. I have seen Derby on a fair few occasions this season and last and they play absolutely terrible football and from what i've seen would struggle to beat the likes of Inverness and Falkirk. I am pretty confident that we could do better than derby are doing. Although i do feel that this whole debate is stupid because there is no way there will be a British league - many proposals like this have been made in the past and they have all, obviously, failed and i can't see anything like this happening in the future.

agree about derby but just because it's never going to happen doesn't mean it's not an interesting debate.

[Keith_M]

they were praised at all these venues, even after Manchester last year the Council said Rangers are welcome back any time!

You said there were lots of examples of OF fans being praised, I asked you for examples, you haven't yet given one supported instance, so I'm still waiting for the quite obvious reams of evidence there must be to back up your assertion.

[Joe Baker II]

You said there were lots of examples of OF fans being praised, I asked you for examples, you haven't yet given one supported instance, so I'm still waiting for the quite obvious reams of evidence there must be to back up your assertion.

Read my post where I said they were praised at the 6 examples quoted earlier (and that is in England alone) and if you search archives at time hard enough you will find it.

[Captain Trips]

I will chip in :greengrin

For best part of 100 years the OF in the main have always battled it out for the honours, of course there have been times when others have done the job but in main and certainly last 20 years its OF really.

The problem will not be whats left I think our league will be rather interesting and might well gain interest of tv, I think the OF will have the problem, the novelty of seeing Man Utd etc will soon wear off when 2,3 or 5 years there is no trophys and that is a very real factor, all there fans have had and are used to winning I think not winning most games will become hard to take.

[Keith_M]

Read my post where I said they were praised at the 6 examples quoted earlier (and that is in England alone) and if you search archives at time hard enough you will find it.

So it must be really easy then, I'm still waiting.......


:I'm waiti

[JimBHibees]

they were praised at all these venues, even after Manchester last year the Council said Rangers are welcome back any time!

So even after wrecking the town they were welcomed back. Beggars belief that comment, if such a statement existed I am sure it extended to the club not the drunken hordes who couldnt behave.

[Keith_M]

So even after wrecking the town they were welcomed back. Beggars belief that comment, if such a statement existed I am sure it extended to the club not the drunken hordes who couldnt behave.


There is apparently loads of evidence of thier fans being praised after games in England. However, I'm still waiting on him to show even ONE example.



How about this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7404511.stm)
"I, as a Glaswegian, am ashamed of the behaviour of some people on Wednesday night and I know there are many other Glaswegians who feel the same way." -
Steven Purcell, leader of Glasgow city council.

[Hibs On Tour]

The fact that the OF try and buy our players for literally nowt at the moment is in itself shocking, at least with them down south we'd get a realistic price for any of our young players. Petrie has at least been stubborn enough with the OF and we tend to get what we want but not the other clubs.

You're missing my point. It matters not a jot whether the OF play in the English league, the Scottish league or the Martian league. They can still choose to bid what they want for who they want, same as any other club. Them not playing the same league as us changes absolutely nothing regarding the prices we'd get from them or any other club.

[Keith_M]

You're missing my point. It matters not a jot whether the OF play in the English league, the Scottish league or the Martian league. They can still choose to bid what they want for who they want, same as any other club. Them not playing the same league as us changes absolutely nothing regarding the prices we'd get from them or any other club.

I agree, the money they offer will be just as derisable. It will be interesting, though, to see if they still continue to buy up the best players from the scottish** clubs. Where would the incentive be for them to do so?





** I almost wrote 'other scottish clubs' but, considering the context, it didn't seem appropriate.

[Hibs On Tour]

I agree, the money they offer will be just as derisable. It will be interesting, though, to see if they still continue to buy up the best players from the scottish** clubs. Where would the incentive be for them to do so?





** I almost wrote 'other scottish clubs' but, considering the context, it didn't seem appropriate.

I was swithering as to whether it would maybe mean that they'd come in for less of our players but then I thought again about it and decided that they'd still almost certainly be in for all the best ones. Surely makes it MORE likely they'd get players from up here to go to them if it meant playing in the EPL instead of the SPL...?

[Kaiser1962]

Not if the standard was Welsh or Irish league level. We'd never fill Easter Road again.

I might be wrong but didnt we fill(or almost fill) ER during "The Great Adventure" ? Without the Of (not a cats chance in hell of them going btw) we would be challenging for everything.

[J-C]

You're missing my point. It matters not a jot whether the OF play in the English league, the Scottish league or the Martian league. They can still choose to bid what they want for who they want, same as any other club. Them not playing the same league as us changes absolutely nothing regarding the prices we'd get from them or any other club.


The fact that they're playing in a different league might alert the teams in England to any decent talent up here, only one or two get picked up in the Championship right now but if the OF were interested in certain players, the other teams would take more interest as well. Remember the SPL is almost ignored down south apart from the OF.

[Richard Scott]

NO! :greengrin

[Hibs On Tour]

The fact that they're playing in a different league might alert the teams in England to any decent talent up here, only one or two get picked up in the Championship right now but if the OF were interested in certain players, the other teams would take more interest as well. Remember the SPL is almost ignored down south apart from the OF.

I just don't think it'll make any noticeable difference to be honest. Teams from the Championship and League 1 already take an active interest in SPL players - don't think that's likely to change dramatically one way or the other if the OF start playing down South. Historically, its been other SPL teams which have lost youngsters to teams down South, not the OF who have lost players to them [at least, not players they wanted to keep]

[Tomsk]

they were praised at all these venues, even after Manchester last year the Council said Rangers are welcome back any time!

Is this your evidence?

Good grief! Only the most apologetic of Hun apologists would accept that at face value.

I think what the Council really wanted to say would be somewhere along the lines of, "We would welcome a squadron of Heinkels and Stukas back before we would want those animals anywhere near our City again".

For a more plausible line, try here, for instance:


http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2008-05-15-Manchester-City-Council-wanted-anyone-but-Rangers-to-make-Uefa-Cup-Final

Next, you'll be telling us it was really Chelsea fans in disguise.

[J-C]

I just don't think it'll make any noticeable difference to be honest. Teams from the Championship and League 1 already take an active interest in SPL players - don't think that's likely to change dramatically one way or the other if the OF start playing down South. Historically, its been other SPL teams which have lost youngsters to teams down South, not the OF who have lost players to them [at least, not players they wanted to keep]


We'll agree to disagree then, not that's it simportant anyway, it's all conjecture at the moment. :greengrin

[ScottB]

I just don't think it'll make any noticeable difference to be honest. Teams from the Championship and League 1 already take an active interest in SPL players - don't think that's likely to change dramatically one way or the other if the OF start playing down South. Historically, its been other SPL teams which have lost youngsters to teams down South, not the OF who have lost players to them [at least, not players they wanted to keep]

Yes but until recently the OF have been financially capable of telling anyone sniffing round their players to get lost. The increase in English clubs sniffing around is due to elevated prices down south and explains why transfer fees are slowly creeping up in Scotland too.

[faffkid]

No way! The old firm can get lost (to put it politely) along with their sectariansm and unfair dominance of the SPL.

I personally think the SPL needs an overhaul to include more teams so we aren't all playing each other every five minutes.

But the main reason for me being 100% against a British league is the threat it would pose to our national team.

I HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS!

[NAE NOOKIE]

To turn things around a bit.

Instead of shipping Scottish teams to England we could be looking at shipping Irish teams into Scotland.

Irish football has suffered probably due to the same problem we have, but to a greater extent. That is a lack of variety.

Ireland is though, sport mad. look at the crowds for the national teams in Rugby and football, not to mention the huge interest in English football.

Ireland ( north and south ) has at least 5 cities the same size or bigger than Dundee. What would be wrong with looking into the viability of some sort of joint league with 2 teams from Dublin and one each from Belfast. Cork etc. Surely Setanta would be interested in such a venture.

Change to summer football for ease of travel and perhaps it would work.

Damn I forgot !! The bloody old firm: Smeltic in Belfast, Rankgers in Dublin.

Oh well, it was worth a thought.

:boo hoo:

[JDanielR1875]

I wouldnt be very happy if we had a British set up. I wonder what would happen to our national team if we went and started a British league? I say we try to back our Scots game as much as we can. I wouldnt like to travel to places like Doncaster or even London to see my team play football it costs me a fortune as it is. Rangers and Celtic wont have it all their own way down in England and the glory hunters wont see any glory!!!

[Mag7]

I remain strongly of the opinion that a UK league AND a UK national team is the way forward for football in Britain. Folk are fooling themselves if they think that a Scottish football set-up without the Old Firm (repugnant as they are) would be taken seriously. The bulk of the media would still focus on whatever the Old Firm were doing, while the current paltry TV deal we have with Sky/ESPN would seem wonderful in comparison to the buttons we'd be offered in an Old Firm-free league. In short, the SPL would be generally regarded as a Toy Town league. Rather than lowering standards even further, we should cast off the shackles of the hopeless administrations which run Scottish football and make a concerted effort to move lock stock and barrel into a UK league. As for the Scottish national team, it is little more than a laughing stock after six successive failures to even qualify for a major tournament and serves no useful purpose other than providing a vehicle for an occasional kilt-clad day on the bevvy.

[jgl07]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:
That's a fair ol' poke!

[PedroEdin84]

Is it maybe a fair comment to make that its only dying out because the OF take over 50% of the revenue from the tv anyway? End of the day i love playing the OF at ER. Makes sundays that much more exciting! But im sure we would be still get a TV deal that would be at least 50% of what we get now, all we get anyway, that would in turn, up attendances as more competition involved and more chance of winning the league.

The main teams that will not like this are those in debt as they really heavily on income from the OF. So as we stand only 3 I think would be happy.:jamboak:

[Keith_M]

I can see why some have voted for it, I've occasionally thought it would be a good idea myself.

However, I've voted no, as I think it would be better to do something to improve Scottish football first. I'd also hate to see the end of the Scottish national team, even though they are rubbish at the moment, and have no doubt that such a league would hasten its end.



p.s. it's all theoretical and even less likely than the OF moving straight to the English Premier.

[Criswell]

You could argue that the OF may have a case for moving south.

1) Precedent: Welsh clubs pay in the English league ( without Wales losing it's international status), Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish league, Derry City in the Irish Republic etc.

2) Scotland and England do belong to a political entity: The United Kingdom.

Although I would personally like to see them go, I still think it is very unlikely.

It would be amusing if the English FA said to them; rid yourself of all the sectarainism/ bigotry baggage and we may review your case in 3 years time. They would tie themselves in knots in trying to comply. I don't think they could do it. It is so ingrained in large sections of their support that you may as well ask them to stop breathing

[Hainan Hibs]

I remain strongly of the opinion that a UK league AND a UK national team is the way forward for football in Britain. Folk are fooling themselves if they think that a Scottish football set-up without the Old Firm (repugnant as they are) would be taken seriously. The bulk of the media would still focus on whatever the Old Firm were doing, while the current paltry TV deal we have with Sky/ESPN would seem wonderful in comparison to the buttons we'd be offered in an Old Firm-free league. In short, the SPL would be generally regarded as a Toy Town league. Rather than lowering standards even further, we should cast off the shackles of the hopeless administrations which run Scottish football and make a concerted effort to move lock stock and barrel into a UK league. As for the Scottish national team, it is little more than a laughing stock after six successive failures to even qualify for a major tournament and serves no useful purpose other than providing a vehicle for an occasional kilt-clad day on the bevvy.

I'm away to slash the wrists:bitchy:.

[vahibbie]

I remain strongly of the opinion that a UK league AND a UK national team is the way forward for football in Britain. Folk are fooling themselves if they think that a Scottish football set-up without the Old Firm (repugnant as they are) would be taken seriously. The bulk of the media would still focus on whatever the Old Firm were doing, while the current paltry TV deal we have with Sky/ESPN would seem wonderful in comparison to the buttons we'd be offered in an Old Firm-free league. In short, the SPL would be generally regarded as a Toy Town league. Rather than lowering standards even further, we should cast off the shackles of the hopeless administrations which run Scottish football and make a concerted effort to move lock stock and barrel into a UK league. As for the Scottish national team, it is little more than a laughing stock after six successive failures to even qualify for a major tournament and serves no useful purpose other than providing a vehicle for an occasional kilt-clad day on the bevvy.

Might as well ban kilts as well:bitchy:
Is it OK if we retain the name Scotland:confused:

[Joe Baker II]

I can see why some have voted for it, I've occasionally thought it would be a good idea myself.

However, I've voted no, as I think it would be better to do something to improve Scottish football first. I'd also hate to see the end of the Scottish national team, even though they are rubbish at the moment, and have no doubt that such a league would hasten its end.

p.s. it's all theoretical and even less likely than the OF moving straight to the English Premier.

FIFA have recently given most positive indication yet more Scottish clubs playing in same league as English ones would not threaten status of Scotland team.

But I agree with your comments - problem is the wealth in English game and the rapacious attitude they have toward all other football in the British Isles and elsewhere in Northern Europe, would not feel too comfortable about selected Scottish clubs joining in.

[Mag7]

FIFA have recently given most positive indication yet more Scottish clubs playing in same league as English ones would not threaten status of Scotland team.

But I agree with your comments - problem is the wealth in English game and the rapacious attitude they have toward all other football in the British Isles and elsewhere in Northern Europe, would not feel too comfortable about selected Scottish clubs joining in.

Are folk REALLY that bothered about us keeping a national team? We have been so bad for so long now that it might prove a blessing just to ditch it. A UK league, with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh teams scattered throughout it could potentially provide a strong basis for a UK national team which wouldn't be the same as supporting England. We're now well used to watching every major tournament pass by without Scotland in it and personally I enjoy being able to watch the games simply for football's sake. If the Scottish national team was phased out we might be surprised how little we'd miss it.

[vahibbie]

Are folk REALLY that bothered about us keeping a national team? We have been so bad for so long now that it might prove a blessing just to ditch it. A UK league, with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh teams scattered throughout it could potentially provide a strong basis for a UK national team which wouldn't be the same as supporting England. We're now well used to watching every major tournament pass by without Scotland in it and personally I enjoy being able to watch the games simply for football's sake. If the Scottish national team was phased out we might be surprised how little we'd miss it.

It would be the same as supporting England:bitchy:
Can't think of any Scots that would make a "UK" team and doubt if either Wales or NI players would make it either. The team would be controlled from England and no doubt play all important games in London.
You can still watch England, for the sake of watching a game, without doing away with our national team.
We might be *****e, but it's our *****e....and we weren't always as bad.

[Alicky Ranks]

It would be the same as supporting England:bitchy:
Can't think of any Scots that would make a "UK" team and doubt if either Wales or NI players would make it either. The team would be controlled from England and no doubt play all important games in London.
You can still watch England, for the sake of watching a game, without doing away with our national team.
We might be *****e, but it's our *****e....and we weren't always as bad.

If the Scots, NI and Welsh players were more in the public eye and playing in an overall stronger league set-up I think in time they would make their way into the international thinking. I would certainly support a UK team.

[Joe Baker II]

Are folk REALLY that bothered about us keeping a national team? .

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!! and even in UK team consisted of all Scots who were current/ex-Hibs players would still want it to get humped. And despite being awful since Burley appointment, we are still in top 30 in the world (just) which is far from worst we have ever been and above several teams who have/can qualify for world cup - depressing as it is shopuld not despair yet.

Unfortunately the majority of those on the OF Boards may agree with you though. And although I often end up defending OF fans against the more extreme attacks on this forum, so would quite a lot of their fans.

[joe breezy]

Ridiculous idea.

I wouldn't look forward to scrapping it out with Scunthorpe or being in a relegation battle with the Mighty Hereford.

The funny thing is, when people suggest this they tend to totally under estimate and talk down our own league as it is yet at the same time, totally over-estimate where we would likely be in such a UK league.

Do you really think people are going to keep going to ER if on offer was Hibs v Wycombe? Or if we're being really optimistic, Hibs v Doncaster?

If you look at the vast majority of leagues in Europe, the Champions League places tend to go to the same 2, 3 or 4 teams each year. Anything else is an interesting exception. It is false to suggest that Scotland is the only place where a couple of teams seem to have a monopoly on the title.

Quite apart from all that, it would be the death knell for the Scottish national team.

Scunthorpe are as big a club as St Mirren or Kilmarnock

I'm not sure about the idea, I think it's probably a non starter as Scotland may well be a separate country in a few years anyway but I don't understand how people can say the games in the SPL are more attractive than against even the 'lesser' teams in England.

You have to have a really good think for rubbish games. Fact is if we were in the English league we'd be championship standard so playing Newcastle, Cardiff, West Brom, Ipswich, Sheffield United etc, all teams that get over 20 000 regularly.

[Alicky Ranks]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!! and even if a UK team consisted of all Scots who were current/ex-Hibs players would still want it to get humped. And despite being awful since Burley appointment, we are still in top 30 in the world (just) which is far from worst we have ever been and above several teams who have/can qualify for world cup - depressing as it is shopuld not despair yet.

Unfortunately the majority of those on the OF Boards may agree with you though. And although I often end up defending OF fans against the more extreme attacks on this forum, so would quite a lot of their fans.

Why? :confused:

[Mag7]

Scunthorpe are as big a club as St Mirren or Kilmarnock

I'm not sure about the idea, I think it's probably a non starter as Scotland may well be a separate country in a few years anyway but I don't understand how people can say the games in the SPL are more attractive than against even the 'lesser' teams in England.

You have to have a really good think for rubbish games. Fact is if we were in the English league we'd be championship standard so playing Newcastle, Cardiff, West Brom, Ipswich, Sheffield United etc, all teams that get over 20 000 regularly.

That's the way I see it too. Folk who are against it throw in words like Scunthorpe or Grimsby because they SOUND unappealing, when in fact these teams are likely bigger than the likes of Motherwell or St Mirren (which of course are such glamorous places to visit twice a season aren't they? :wink:). As you say, there are plenty cracking clubs we could find ourselves up against.

Mind you, looks like the Old Firm may initially be looking to Europe rather than England if this has any substance:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2009/10/14/exclusive-atlantic-league-plans-back-on-the-table-for-old-firm-as-dutch-chief-backs-plans-86908-21745694/

[Joe Baker II]

Why? :confused:

Supporting a UK team means supporting English political control of Scotland and Wales, and to some extent Ireland.

[Alicky Ranks]

Supporting a UK team means supporting English political control of Scotland and Wales, and to some extent Ireland.


Ah right, I hadn't been thinking about it from a political viewpoint. I just think the product would become much better with a UK league and corresponding united national team rather than the tired, stifled set-up we have in Scotland. Having lived in London for a number of years I never got the whole anti-English thing a lot of Scots who live down south seemed to cling to (why live there if that's your view?) and I'd have no real problem supporting a UK team.

[Hainan Hibs]

Yep, I'd love belting out God Save the Queen, waving the union flags, couldn't beat a good sing along of Rule Brittania:thumbsup::bitchy::bitchy:

I think I'd lose complete interest in football if Hibs went to a UK league and a UK team was created.

[Mag7]

Ah right, I hadn't been thinking about it from a political viewpoint. I just think the product would become much better with a UK league and corresponding united national team rather than the tired, stifled set-up we have in Scotland. Having lived in London for a number of years I never got the whole anti-English thing a lot of Scots who live down south seemed to cling to (why live there if that's your view?) and I'd have no real problem supporting a UK team.

:agree: I've never really understood that either. When I lived in England I used to cringe a bit at that sort of mentality which struck me as very narrow-minded.

[bingo70]

:agree: I've never really understood that either. When I lived in England I used to cringe a bit at that sort of mentality which struck me as very narrow-minded.

Don't see whats wrong with wanting your rivals to lose?

It's only as narrow minded as them wanting Germany to lose, it's the same with all other rivalries throughout the world, it's just part of what makes sport great IMO.

Just because people have moved down there i don't see why that would change?

If i ever move to gorgie, i'll definately still want hearts to lose :wink:

[Hibster]

I'd hate to see a UK team, but I'd love to see a UK League - assuming it would be set up with a regional pyramid structure. So the entire league wouldn't be UK-wide, just the top two tiers, with everything below kept seperated into a Scottish league, English league, Welsh league etc

So for most teams nothing would change, and we wouldn't be travelling hundreds of miles to play the likes of Doncaster. There'd just be the added incentive for doing well in the top Scottish league, as it would mean a place in the 2nd of the two UK leagues, and playing against some of the bigger teams from around Britain.

[Alicky Ranks]

Don't see whats wrong with wanting your rivals to lose?

It's only as narrow minded as them wanting Germany to lose, it's the same with all other rivalries throughout the world, it's just part of what makes sport great IMO.

Just because people have moved down there i don't see why that would change?

If i ever move to gorgie, i'll definately still want hearts to lose :wink:

I spent the bulk of my youth in London and retain most of my best mates from back then, almost all of whom are English. I guess I was just never too bothered about the Scotland v England thing and have in fact been along to Wembley to watch England games on occasion. I was also a season ticket holder at Loftus Road for a number of years so am equally passionate about English football TBH. Guess that makes me a bit different to Scots who move down for work or whatever and like to keep the claymores rattling in a kind of 'if ah have tae live here ah'll no let ye forget ah'm a braw Scot' kind of way.

[Mag7]

Don't see whats wrong with wanting your rivals to lose?
It's only as narrow minded as them wanting Germany to lose, it's the same with all other rivalries throughout the world, it's just part of what makes sport great IMO.

Just because people have moved down there i don't see why that would change?

If i ever move to gorgie, i'll definately still want hearts to lose :wink:

Rivalry, to me, implies some sort of competitive relationship whereby either side can get the better of the other. We certainly aren't comepetitive with England these days.

[bingo70]

Rivalry, to me, implies some sort of competitive relationship whereby either side can get the better of the other. We certainly aren't comepetitive with England these days.

Thought that'd be the argument back :greengrin

Look at what Germany have achieved in football compared to England yet England still see them as there rivals, think i'm right in saying that Belgium consider there rivalry to be with Holland despite being nowhere near as succesfull and i believe hearts have now moved onto bigger things than being our rivals as well now but we still see them that way.

It's quite common for rivalries to be one sided, I realise that England aren't bothered that much by us, thats what makes it all the sweeter when they get beat. :wink:

[Alicky Ranks]

Thought that'd be the argument back :greengrin

Look at what Germany have achieved in football compared to England yet England still see them as there rivals, think i'm right in saying that Belgium consider there rivalry to be with Holland despite being nowhere near as succesfull and i believe hearts have now moved onto bigger things than being our rivals as well now but we still see them that way.

It's quite common for rivalries to be one sided, I realise that England aren't bothered that much by us, thats what makes it all the sweeter when they get beat. :wink:

As explained, I probably have a slightly different perspective on it to a lot of Scots but when I lived in England the general reaction to the Scots getting all heated about how much they hate the English was one of bemusement. Certainly the English folk I know don't regard Scotland as 'rivals'. I sometimes wonder if it's such insularity from the fans that contributes to the national team being so spectacularly unsuccessful. It's all very well to haul on the kilt and holler on about sending King Edward's army homeward, but patriotism/loyalty/anti-Englishness/call it what you will won't help make the team on the pitch any better. As I've said before, the TA might be better channelling their energies into something more constructive like mounting a campaign to drive the likes of Smith and Burley from office.

[Mag7]

Thought that'd be the argument back :greengrin

Look at what Germany have achieved in football compared to England yet England still see them as there rivals, think i'm right in saying that Belgium consider there rivalry to be with Holland despite being nowhere near as succesfull and i believe hearts have now moved onto bigger things than being our rivals as well now but we still see them that way.

It's quite common for rivalries to be one sided, I realise that England aren't bothered that much by us, thats what makes it all the sweeter when they get beat. :wink:

Fair point I guess. Nine wins out of 10 in a qualifying group they'd have struggled in under McClaren is impressive going for England though and certainly illustrates the gulf which now exists between them and us. Quite fancy them to put in a real challenge for the World Cup itself under Capello.

[bingo70]

Fair point I guess. Nine wins out of 10 in a qualifying group they'd have struggled in under McClaren is impressive going for England though and certainly illustrates the gulf which now exists between them and us. Quite fancy them to put in a real challenge for the World Cup itself under Capello.

Absolutely, England have to be one of the favorites, my only hope is that they have peaked to early, if they qualify i fancy argentina to win as they'll replace maradona by then and will go in with a massive point to prove, unlike England, who potentially if they're not managed right could go in seeing themselves as future winners. (no offence :greengrin)

With regards to the scotland england rivalry, i actually think one of the reasons Scotland appear to be in such a state is because of our rivalry with England, i keep hearing about how poor a league we have compared to England, considering the difference in population its a ridiculous compaison and when it comes to looking at the standard of our own game we need to start looking to similiar sized countries where i don't think we do that bad, although we could do much better.

[bingo70]

As explained, I probably have a slightly different perspective on it to a lot of Scots but when I lived in England the general reaction to the Scots getting all heated about how much they hate the English was one of bemusement. Certainly the English folk I know don't regard Scotland as 'rivals'. I sometimes wonder if it's such insularity from the fans that contributes to the national team being so spectacularly unsuccessful. It's all very well to haul on the kilt and holler on about sending King Edward's army homeward, but patriotism/loyalty/anti-Englishness/call it what you will won't help make the team on the pitch any better. As I've said before, the TA might be better channelling their energies into something more constructive like mounting a campaign to drive the likes of Smith and Burley from office.

You've got a point in that wanting England to lose doesn't do anything to improve our game, however with Scotland constantly being pish we need someone to support at world cups so wanting England to lose generally gives us an interest throughout the tournament.

I also think that with England games only lasting a couple of hours there's plenty of time to want England to lose and look at ways to improve Scottish football, i know when hibs are pish, i still want Hearts to lose and enjoy it when they do.

[hibeerobbo]

I would like hibs to upset everything and apply to go to the english leagues on our own.. After a few seasons we would IMO get to the championship.. That is when big investors will look at us... We have no debt, We have our own Training facilities which is up there with the best, The best youth System in the country, we are based in a massive city which could easily give us 20,000 - 25,000 each week if we were playing to a high standard of football.

Or am i living in dream land???

[Joe Baker II]

Having lived in London for a number of years I never got the whole anti-English thing a lot of Scots who live down south seemed to cling to (why live there if that's your view?) and I'd have no real problem supporting a UK team.

Certainly not just perspective of Scots in London - there are plenty of people here who think the same. It is actually issue even more so living in Edinburgh, only have to look at number of English people in prominent jobs in city and resultant culture of Anglicisation (English football coming out of your face while pretty hard to watch Scottish games on tv much of the time one of many examples) - and situation is much of Wales is worse.

Scots living in London slighlty different - do not dominate the same way that English people do in Edinburgh, generally not in most prominent jobs (whatever the English nationalist moaners may think) and must less numerous proportionately.

And we hated England for the same justifiable reasons in the 1970s when we qualiifed for world cups and they did not so not convinced about point it contributes to our failures.

[Tinyclothes]

Scots living in London slighlty different - do not dominate the same way that English people do in Edinburgh, generally not in most prominent jobs (whatever the English nationalist moaners may think) and must less numerous proportionately.



Ha ha ha, who's the Prime Minister?

[Bad Martini]

Ha ha ha, who's the Prime Minister?

...a good point well made, but, Broon is a big bawbag.:greengrin

As for the old firm pissing off, definitely all for that :bye:

The sooner the better in fact. Ohhh yess. Good bye, don't pass go, don't collect £200 notes and dont let the door skelp ye's on the erse on the way. :thumbsup:

ENDOF

[BravestHibs]

Ha ha ha, who's the Prime Minister?

And Chancellor of the Exchequer!! The Scots in London have no power whatsoever.

[Bad Martini]

And Chancellor of the Exchequer!! The Scots in London have no power whatsoever.

...he was born in London though remember.

Probably gives him some right to have a job there :greengrin

(and keeps him oot oor way) :thumbsup:

[BravestHibs]

...he was born in London though remember.

Probably gives him some right to have a job there :greengrin

(and keeps him oot oor way) :thumbsup:

I did not know that. I assumed, that having been schooled in the fiercely Scots Republican school Lorettos that he was born and raised on the furthest flung Western Isle there is, with English being his second language and Gaelic fluently spoken on his return to visit the parents at the croft. I was fooled into voting Labour back in '97 if that's not the case.

[Bad Martini]

I did not know that. I assumed, that having been schooled in the fiercely Scots Republican school Lorettos that he was born and raised on the furthest flung Western Isle there is, with English being his second language and Gaelic fluently spoken on his return to visit the parents at the croft.

:greengrin



I was fooled into voting Labour back in '97 if that's not the case.

You, and the rest of us. They even conned Noel Gallagher FFS! Sneaky bassas :grr:

Chumbawumba knew :devil:

[Alicky Ranks]

Would somebody be good enough to merge this thread with the one started today on the same theme? Thanks.

[MacBean]

...he was born in London though remember.

Probably gives him some right to have a job there :greengrin

(and keeps him oot oor way) :thumbsup:


And Chancellor of the Exchequer!! The Scots in London have no power whatsoever.


...a good point well made, but, Broon is a big bawbag.:greengrin

As for the old firm pissing off, definitely all for that :bye:

The sooner the better in fact. Ohhh yess. Good bye, don't pass go, don't collect £200 notes and dont let the door skelp ye's on the erse on the way. :thumbsup:

ENDOF


Ha ha ha, who's the Prime Minister?


Tony blair was born & schooled in Edinburgh too :wink:

[Bad Martini]

Tony blair was born & schooled in Edinburgh too :wink:

Aye ah ken, but so did Mickey Weir, Tam Farmer and a few other notable good lads and they turned oot alright.

Just goes to show - if yer gonna be a bawbag, it doesny matter where yer educated. Blair and Brown (and Darling) prove that ... or is it just we all start life with a clean slate and some folk will end up being gitts. :devil: whae kens :confused: :greengrin

[Russian Hibs Fan]

Portsmouth away on a Wednesday night? :devil:

So what?