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Mikey_1875
03-03-2008, 07:16 PM
Can see them being a waste of money and a lot of hassle. I doubt many people will change from Car journey to using the Trams. Bus services will probably be cheaper aswell. It only goes through one route in town so doesn't cover much of Edinburgh either. They should spend the money on improving the bus service, surely there are better ways to encourage public transport than by trams ? :brickwall

mglancy23
03-03-2008, 07:24 PM
yip

waste of money :brickwall

Teo10
03-03-2008, 07:44 PM
yip

waste of money :brickwall

The hassle it's causing with the traffic aswell:brickwall

Iain G
03-03-2008, 08:15 PM
Can see them being a waste of money and a lot of hassle. I doubt many people will change from Car journey to using the Trams. Bus services will probably be cheaper aswell. It only goes through one route in town so doesn't cover much of Edinburgh either. They should spend the money on improving the bus service, surely there are better ways to encourage public transport than by trams ? :brickwall

I am watching on from afar with a mixture of shock that the coonicl are making such a bloody mess of Edinburgh (why should I be surprised giving the brown envelope, backhander, self serving level of local cooncilor we get in Edinburgh, see Caltongate for such examples...) and glee that I am far away from this mess, this white elephant that will create a big scar across the face of Edinburgh...

It will go over budget, over time, and will offer no tangible benefits to the local people of Edinburgh, its on the most services bus route in the city and do you just think LRT will stop their services along this route, nah, instead the motorist and commuter and small businessman who needs his van for work, will get squeezed out as the council care not one jot or iota about Edinburgh residents, just happy to see their name in lights leavign this mess as their legacy..

I'm pretty disgusted about it to be honest, and think the folks of Edinburgh should start a witch hunt and drag those responsible kicking and screaming and put them in stocks on the Castle Esplanade and let the locals throw rotting veg and stuff at them...right next to those lovely people ruining the Meadows and the Caltongate crooks...

BoozyLynne
03-03-2008, 08:26 PM
this white elephant that will create a big scar across the face of Edinburgh...

It will go over budget, over time, and will offer no tangible benefits to the local people of Edinburgh, its on the most services bus route in the city and do you just think LRT will stop their services along this route, nah, instead the motorist and commuter and small businessman who needs his van for work, will get squeezed out as the council care not one jot or iota about Edinburgh residents, just happy to see their name in lights leavign this mess as their legacy..

I'm pretty disgusted about it to be honest, and think the folks of Edinburgh should start a witch hunt and drag those responsible kicking and screaming and put them in stocks on the Castle Esplanade and let the locals throw rotting veg and stuff at them...right next to those lovely people ruining the Meadows and the Caltongate crooks...

I absolutely agree 100% with everything you just said.

The trams are a BAD idea. One route which will serve about 10% of the population of Edinburgh - what about everybody else?? Why bother spending money on the trams when they can't even get the bus services to the outskirts right?

Why not bring the Suburban railway back??

Who the hell decided that trams were a good idea?

All this does is make the city more attractive to tourists and people who live along the (small) tram route. It's completely pointless.

Mikey_1875
03-03-2008, 08:34 PM
Hmm seems like the general thought's are this is a load of rubbish. Which begs another question, what do the people we elect to council etc see in it? Quite poor how majority seem against it but people who are trusted with budgets seem too like it ?

Phil D. Rolls
03-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Can see them being a waste of money and a lot of hassle. I doubt many people will change from Car journey to using the Trams. Bus services will probably be cheaper aswell. It only goes through one route in town so doesn't cover much of Edinburgh either. They should spend the money on improving the bus service, surely there are better ways to encourage public transport than by trams ? :brickwall

I think a helicopter taxi service would be a boon. With fares at 50p for a cross town journey, surely there would be no need for these tram cars? After all if they are good enough for johnny foreigner, then there has to be something wrong with them.

Come on, Edinburgh Sh*tty Council - get with the new age!

woodythehibee
03-03-2008, 09:13 PM
pretty much agree with everything said above. i do not see the benefits at all.

Lothian buses won best bus service in the UK last year so there is clearly no need to make drastic changes to our transport system :brickwall

Iain G
03-03-2008, 09:48 PM
I absolutely agree 100% with everything you just said.

The trams are a BAD idea. One route which will serve about 10% of the population of Edinburgh - what about everybody else?? Why bother spending money on the trams when they can't even get the bus services to the outskirts right?

Why not bring the Suburban railway back??

Who the hell decided that trams were a good idea?

All this does is make the city more attractive to tourists and people who live along the (small) tram route. It's completely pointless.

Lynne, wait til your travels take you abroad and you see proper, modern, clean integrated transport systems! Melbourne has a great tram system which integrates with the bus network and has a grand suburban rail system too, one ticket does all three, its amazing. If Edinburgh REALLY wanted to do this properly then it would cost tens of billions of pounds, instead the cooncil are playing at big cities as usual with the taxpayers dosh, they should be railroaded (no pun, honest!) out of town for the shambolic way they are dragging Edinburgh down with their small minded, live for today attitude to the place... :brickwall

Iain G
03-03-2008, 09:50 PM
I think a helicopter taxi service would be a boon. With fares at 50p for a cross town journey, surely there would be no need for these tram cars? After all if they are good enough for johnny foreigner, then there has to be something wrong with them.

Come on, Edinburgh Sh*tty Council - get with the new age!

Hovercraft! Thats the way forward, no need for roads or anything, thats the way to do it, think of the cash saved on no new roads or road maintenance, cover your services with mud Mr Gas-man, we don't need any more of your tarmacadam thank you very much, or a new forth bridge, hovercrafts for all, you know it makes sense... :greengrin

Chez
03-03-2008, 09:53 PM
I am watching on from afar with a mixture of shock that the coonicl are making such a bloody mess of Edinburgh (why should I be surprised giving the brown envelope, backhander, self serving level of local cooncilor we get in Edinburgh, see Caltongate for such examples...) and glee that I am far away from this mess, this white elephant that will create a big scar across the face of Edinburgh...

It will go over budget, over time, and will offer no tangible benefits to the local people of Edinburgh, its on the most services bus route in the city and do you just think LRT will stop their services along this route, nah, instead the motorist and commuter and small businessman who needs his van for work, will get squeezed out as the council care not one jot or iota about Edinburgh residents, just happy to see their name in lights leavign this mess as their legacy..

I'm pretty disgusted about it to be honest, and think the folks of Edinburgh should start a witch hunt and drag those responsible kicking and screaming and put them in stocks on the Castle Esplanade and let the locals throw rotting veg and stuff at them...right next to those lovely people ruining the Meadows and the Caltongate crooks...

:agree: Excellent post Iain - they never have consulted or gave Edinburgh Citizens the chance to vote on the trams because they know deep down that most of us would vote NO, it is a complete waste of public money which could be used in communities.

The whole tram issue is a complete farce and will never be as good as the bus service we currently have.

Iain G
03-03-2008, 09:56 PM
:agree: Excellent post Iain - they never have consulted or gave Edinburgh Citizens the chance to vote on the trams because they know deep down that most of us would vote NO, it is a complete waste of public money which could be used in communities.

The whole tram issue is a complete farce and will never be as good as the bus service we currently have.

500 million plus on Tram system we actually don't need, when they are having to close down schools because of lack of funding, you ask me whats important and its not these flaming white elephant trams anyway :brickwall

IMHO they stopped the wrong scheme, the rail link to Edinburgh airport was the one that would actually improve travel in this city/country, instead we got the tram line and cancelled this one...what we needed was a dedicated airport train link to central Edinburgh, preferably via Edinburgh Park, but we get this comedy situation instead...idiots :brickwall

Chez
03-03-2008, 10:02 PM
500 million plus on Tram system we actually don't need, when they are having to close down schools because of lack of funding, you ask me whats important and its not these flaming white elephant trams anyway :brickwall

IMHO they stopped the wrong scheme, the rail link to Edinburgh airport was the one that would actually improve travel in this city/country, instead we got the tram line and cancelled this one...what we needed was a dedicated airport train link to central Edinburgh, preferably via Edinburgh Park, but we get this comedy situation instead...idiots :brickwall

Exactly Iain, I would prefer the money to be spent in schools so my kids can get a great education; on houses with decent front door (which I do not have - terrible in winter and draughty) and adjusting all public places to allow access to disabled and elderly (many of the places I'm thinking about such as post offices have too many steps for some infirm and wheelchair users are unable to access at all).

Too many chiefs and no enough indians IMO :brickwall

Toaods
03-03-2008, 10:29 PM
The Tram executive for Dublin was quoted last week as having noted that the reaction in Edunburgh was the same as he had encountered when the Dublin tram ssystem was kicked off.

I visited (my only trip there) Dublin then and it sure was murder, however he stated that they had just carried over 30 million passengers and people think it's superb.


I thought the bus lanes would be a joke but they are bang on when you need to get into town and avoid the queuing traffic

hibby19
03-03-2008, 10:34 PM
At first I was all for it as I thought it would be a good icon for Edinburgh but now its just a pain in the a*se.

The traffic is a nightmare and its draining all this money all for very little use to most people in Edinburgh. The money should be used for something much more important i.e improving sports facilities or something that will really benefit the people of Edinburgh

Little Miss Perfect
03-03-2008, 11:00 PM
I am watching on from afar with a mixture of shock that the coonicl are making such a bloody mess of Edinburgh (why should I be surprised giving the brown envelope, backhander, self serving level of local cooncilor we get in Edinburgh, see Caltongate for such examples...) and glee that I am far away from this mess, this white elephant that will create a big scar across the face of Edinburgh...

It will go over budget, over time, and will offer no tangible benefits to the local people of Edinburgh, its on the most services bus route in the city and do you just think LRT will stop their services along this route, nah, instead the motorist and commuter and small businessman who needs his van for work, will get squeezed out as the council care not one jot or iota about Edinburgh residents, just happy to see their name in lights leavign this mess as their legacy..

I'm pretty disgusted about it to be honest, and think the folks of Edinburgh should start a witch hunt and drag those responsible kicking and screaming and put them in stocks on the Castle Esplanade and let the locals throw rotting veg and stuff at them...right next to those lovely people ruining the Meadows and the Caltongate crooks...


I absolutely agree 100% with everything you just said.

The trams are a BAD idea. One route which will serve about 10% of the population of Edinburgh - what about everybody else?? Why bother spending money on the trams when they can't even get the bus services to the outskirts right?

Why not bring the Suburban railway back??

Who the hell decided that trams were a good idea?

All this does is make the city more attractive to tourists and people who live along the (small) tram route. It's completely pointless.



Agree with both of you, who actually decided it was a good idea for trams, did Joe Public get asked,i really don't know but i think it's crazy,I am dead set against it not that my view will matter,waste of money :brickwall

Iain G
03-03-2008, 11:27 PM
The Tram executive for Dublin was quoted last week as having noted that the reaction in Edunburgh was the same as he had encountered when the Dublin tram ssystem was kicked off.

I visited (my only trip there) Dublin then and it sure was murder, however he stated that they had just carried over 30 million passengers and people think it's superb.


I thought the bus lanes would be a joke but they are bang on when you need to get into town and avoid the queuing traffic

Will the trams make a difference to getting in and around Edinburgh, will it make it easier or quicker than what we have already, they are servicing the busiest bus corridor in Edinburgh, LRT will still be running buses down here in competition with the trams, I just don't see what tangible benefit they will have on movement around the city??

I think congestion will actually get worse, cars will be forced into one lane in many parts of the town, if a tram breaks down you are screwed until it is repaired as you can't move it off the road like a bus...

The way to actually improve this issue, which I must say has been hampered by the cooncils road screwingup plans for many years now, is not to throw ANOTHER batch of vehicles onto these roads! They should be looking at local suburban train links to get people off the roads, a regular train link to and from the airport to Haymarket/Waverley, via the busy Edinburgh Park, would alleviate the pressure on the road network.

Actually, turning haymarket into a major traffic hub/interchange would be such a good plan, you could link trains/buses/coaches/pedestrians/cars/taxis etc into one intergrated scheme, instead they are turning the area into anoter retail/hotel development chasing the quick buck and not looking at the overall future planning for the benefits of Edinburgh. They could run regular shuttle buses around the centre of town from Haymarket dropping folks off going to work etc etc.

You could create a smaller hub at the top of Leith Walk too when they demolish the St James centre, linked into the existing bus station..

There is no joined up thinking in Edinburgh regarding transport.

I just don't see the benefits of this tram scheme that is being built, am I missing something?

bernz
04-03-2008, 11:15 AM
Surely the way to go would have been a proper underground train service.
Im not talking about the crappy Glasgow style underground, but something more akin to the toronto subway. Its clean, bright and well maintained. It also doesnt put more vehicles on the roads. And with the right design it would cover most of the city. Certainly more than the proposed trams will.

Pretty Boy
04-03-2008, 12:00 PM
500 million plus on Tram system we actually don't need, when they are having to close down schools because of lack of funding, you ask me whats important and its not these flaming white elephant trams anyway :brickwall

IMHO they stopped the wrong scheme, the rail link to Edinburgh airport was the one that would actually improve travel in this city/country, instead we got the tram line and cancelled this one...what we needed was a dedicated airport train link to central Edinburgh, preferably via Edinburgh Park, but we get this comedy situation instead...idiots :brickwall

The rail link and 5 or 6 dedictaed park and ride sites around the city, would ease congestion and encourage people to use public transport for at least part of their journey. Far better than a tram system that essentially goes nowhere that buses don't.

DaveF
04-03-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm not a regular bus user, but was 'on the buses' yesterday (of all days!) and didn't have a clue which bus stop to go to when trying to find a 25 back to the Riccarton park and ride.

The information posted on the shelters was far too confusing for me, plus you had so little time to digest it properly due to the numbers of buses whizzing round from Princes Street onto Lothian Road!

Turned out that the 25 just went past all the stops on lothian road anyway, and I ended up getting a 34 instead.

Thank god that was a one off - I hope!

Bad Martini
04-03-2008, 01:24 PM
Another little present from oor former governement who even now, after being booted out, VOTED OUT and democratically told to "get tae" are STILL causing us aggro.

Political point? Too ****ing right....

Waste of time, money, energy and too much aggro to boot.

Total piss up of the taxpayers money.

ENDOF

stu in nottingham
04-03-2008, 02:19 PM
I can't really comment specifically on Edinburgh's proposed service but what I can say is that most of the opinions being voiced on this thread I heard time and again by people here in Nottingham (myself included) before our system was built.

Now people love them.

Yes, it was a pain while the roads were being dug up. The route is fairly restricted too (I rarely find a use for it personally). Everyone said it would be a waste of money, dangerous, interfere with traffic etc.

The result is full trams all day with standing room only in busy periods and TWO proposed brand new routes. People like them because they're reasonably cheap, efficient, reliable, regular and comfortable. Another factor is that people like them because they're safe. Having a conductor helps in this respect.

Friends of mine have even had good nights doing the 'tram pub crawl' hopping on and off on a night out.

http://www.thetram.net/

Have a trip on the Nottingham Tram. It does 500mph!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/features/2004/01/500mph_tram_journey.shtml

Zeberdee
04-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Another little present from oor former governement who even now, after being booted out, VOTED OUT and democratically told to "get tae" are STILL causing us aggro.

Political point? Too ****ing right....

Waste of time, money, energy and too much aggro to boot.

Total piss up of the taxpayers money.

ENDOF


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6243158.stm

Its called democracy and the final decision was taken when the snp were in power. Unfortunately they were wrong so the other 3 parties voted for its approval.

PiemanP
04-03-2008, 02:31 PM
total madness if you ask me :bitchy: a complete waste of money and a whole load of disruption being caused. the routes the trams are going to use are ones that buses run down every 5 minutes FFS so what is the point. how about people in the outskirts of edinburgh like muirhouse, oxgangs, sighthill who could actually benefit from some money being spent on extended bus routes or even some sort of train service im sure would be a lot more cost effective and benefiscial.

Benny Brazil
04-03-2008, 04:16 PM
I fail to see the need for the trams in Edinburgh.
Part of the problem as I see it the numbers of cars coming in from out of town, how are the trams going to reduce this when they only run to certain parts of Edinburgh?
The bus service is good if you live in Edinburgh, for those of us on the outskirts (who still have to pay Edin Council Tax) the service provided is poor. In Sth Queensferry we have one bus service into and out of Edinburgh provided by First buses, the only other options for me to get in to town is either the car or a train. The train service (also provided by the First group) is piss poor, overcrowded and expensive. So the only viable option is to drive.
For people coming from Fife etc the train is again the only option apart from the car.
The park and ride scheme looks to be a good service so why not try to encourage people to use this more.
There is also the issue of providing better transport to Edin airport which is currently non existent.
The council / Government had an opportunity to create a viable and worthy transport system for Edinburgh but instead came up with the Trams.

Sergio sledge
04-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I can't really comment specifically on Edinburgh's proposed service but what I can say is that most of the opinions being voiced on this thread I heard time and again by people here in Nottingham (myself included) before our system was built.

Now people love them.

Yes, it was a pain while the roads were being dug up. The route is fairly restricted too (I rarely find a use for it personally). Everyone said it would be a waste of money, dangerous, interfere with traffic etc.

The result is full trams all day with standing room only in busy periods and TWO proposed brand new routes. People like them because they're reasonably cheap, efficient, reliable, regular and comfortable. Another factor is that people like them because they're safe. Having a conductor helps in this respect.

Friends of mine have even had good nights doing the 'tram pub crawl' hopping on and off on a night out.

http://www.thetram.net/

Have a trip on the Nottingham Tram. It does 500mph!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/features/2004/01/500mph_tram_journey.shtml

Was going to add the same thing. The trams do work in Nottingham, despite much opposition before they were completed. The thing I liked most about them was that they were virtually silent, meaning you could hold a conversation on them without shouting over the din of the buses. They also cut my journey time out to my mates houses by half. They may cause major disruption at the moment in Edinburgh, but I'm almost certain they will be well used and appreciated once they are fully up and running. My only dissapointment about the tram system in Nottingham was that I left before they completed the route out to the University. :agree:

Bad Martini
04-03-2008, 05:16 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6243158.stm

Its called democracy and the final decision was taken when the snp were in power. Unfortunately they were wrong so the other 3 parties voted for its approval.

:confused:

Zeberdee ... I am more than a little confused.

The SNP opposed the idea. Most people on here OPPOSE the idea. The ****ing legacy of the labour government is these Godforsaken trams (Which will effectively run the same route as the most COMMON/REGULAR/EVERY 23 SECONDS bus service) ... this is good how?

I do understand the concepts of democracy...democracy is why the SNP are in power and Labour are stuck with their collective erses oot the windae.

Unfortunately, the by product of democracy is the trams which we are all stuck with. Finally, if yer interested in democracy, if we had a wee vote on here, you would find most people would be busy voting against the trams....democracy? I think not......

Just for info, and from the article YOU quoted to me:
"Mr Swinney told BBC Scotland: "We didn't want the trams project but parliament has voted for it and the opposition has put a financial constraint on it and I will vigorously apply that financial constraint."

...JUST to be clear, the SNP D I D N O T want the trams, the people (or the people on here, folk I have spoken to and others all over) are quoted as NOT wanting the trams.....Im sure there is someone out there who'll be mad for the trams.....ye can count me richt oot tho.

I can think of FAR better ways of spending all that loot, as I see folk waiting 4 months on operations (folk I KNOW), folk waiting months on the dentist, folk paying thru the nose for prescriptions etc etc.....money could have been spent there. Nope. Lets blow the ****ing lot on some stupid trams.

Zeberdee
04-03-2008, 06:12 PM
:confused:

Zeberdee ... I am more than a little confused.



I can tell. :greengrin jokin.

The major benifit of replacing the buses will be the improvement in the air in the city. think of all the carcnagenic diesel fumes that will be reduced. The problem was that if the city continues to grow at its current rate, there simply wouldnt be enough buses on our already congested roads. Its also been proven that many drivers who would not use buses, like myself, would be willing to use trams.

Trams offer a whole new transport choice to the people of Edinburgh; one that is proven to appeal to car users where other public transport has failed. Trams are reliable, fast and can carry many passengers; they are also electrically powered producing almost no on-street pollution, which helps to reduce the environmental impact of vehicle emissions.


Also:

http://tramfacts.wordpress.com/all-posts/

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Transport/Public_transport/Trams/CEC_alternative_to_trams_

Anyway enough of this banter for the day, im finished work and in turn finished wasting even more tax payers money as some of you would probably suggest.

Iain G
04-03-2008, 06:22 PM
I can tell. :greengrin jokin.

The major benifit of replacing the buses will be the improvement in the air in the city. think of all the carcnagenic diesel fumes that will be reduced. The problem was that if the city continues to grow at its current rate, there simply wouldnt be enough buses on our already congested roads. Its also been proven that many drivers who would not use buses, like myself, would be willing to use trams.

Trams offer a whole new transport choice to the people of Edinburgh; one that is proven to appeal to car users where other public transport has failed. Trams are reliable, fast and can carry many passengers; they are also electrically powered producing almost no on-street pollution, which helps to reduce the environmental impact of vehicle emissions.


Also:

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Transport/Public_transport/Trams/CEC_alternative_to_trams_

Anyway enough of this banter for the day, im finished work and in turn finished wasting even more tax payers money as some of you would probably suggest.

The issue here is not the trams themselves, I think they will be fairly well used by folks, its that they are not replacing the buses, LRT won't roll over and give up all the cash they make servicing the same route as the tramlines, so instead of removing congestion we are adding another layer and mode of transport to an already over subscribed route in and out of town.

Its small time thinking that has got us the trams, typical of Scotland really, no big picture! We shold be getting people back off the road network by looking at proper local rail links, trying to shoehorn another mode of transport onto the streets of Edinburgh is just folly IMHO. I like the trams I have used in other cities, but this scheme for Edinburgh does nothing to alleviate the issues of congestion and busy roads unless you get rid of the buses on these routes, which won't happen...

Sergio sledge
04-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Just as an extra to my post above, I can tell most folk on here are against them, but the plan is to have a park and ride out at Ingleston, (as far as I can see) and connect eventually to the airport. This would mean lots of the people out that side of town could park there and then get the tram into town, (along the railway line mainly) which would greatly reduce the traffic into town. Having seen the Queensferry road fairly regularly during rush hour, there are a lot of people out that way who could use this facility.

Zeberdee
04-03-2008, 06:37 PM
The issue here is not the trams themselves, I think they will be fairly well used by folks, its that they are not replacing the buses, LRT won't roll over and give up all the cash they make servicing the same route as the tramlines, so instead of removing congestion we are adding another layer and mode of transport to an already over subscribed route in and out of town.

Its small time thinking that has got us the trams, typical of Scotland really, no big picture! We shold be getting people back off the road network by looking at proper local rail links, trying to shoehorn another mode of transport onto the streets of Edinburgh is just folly IMHO. I like the trams I have used in other cities, but this scheme for Edinburgh does nothing to alleviate the issues of congestion and busy roads unless you get rid of the buses on these routes, which won't happen...


Rail links would have less stops, cause much more congestions, and cost much much much more to have put inplace.

Arch Stanton
04-03-2008, 06:58 PM
I can tell. :greengrin jokin.

The major benifit of replacing the buses will be the improvement in the air in the city. think of all the carcnagenic diesel fumes that will be reduced. The problem was that if the city continues to grow at its current rate, there simply wouldnt be enough buses on our already congested roads. Its also been proven that many drivers who would not use buses, like myself, would be willing to use trams.

Trams offer a whole new transport choice to the people of Edinburgh; one that is proven to appeal to car users where other public transport has failed. Trams are reliable, fast and can carry many passengers; they are also electrically powered producing almost no on-street pollution, which helps to reduce the environmental impact of vehicle emissions.


Also:

http://tramfacts.wordpress.com/all-posts/

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Transport/Public_transport/Trams/CEC_alternative_to_trams_

Anyway enough of this banter for the day, im finished work and in turn finished wasting even more tax payers money as some of you would probably suggest.

The points you make rather raises something I have never seen addressed - exactly why we are getting trams. If the requirement was to reduce carbon emissions then trams would not be a cost effective solution for Edinburgh. Changing all the buses in Edinburgh to LPG would be a solution but changing one of our commuter routes to trams isn't.

If the requirement was to give Edinburgh commuters more choice then they really need a change to the bus system which would mean a lot more journeys could be made without changing buses. Also, the fact that just about all bus routes go through Princes Street is something which really needs to be addressed if we are going to improve public transport in Edinburgh.

However, the main selling point of trams is that they are an RTS solution (Rapid Transit System) - getting commuters into town quickly. Now, while trams will be very appealing to those relatively few citizens who will be able to make use of them, they certainly wont be travelling any faster than people on buses.

The biggest fallacy though is that there will be fewer buses - even if fewer people travel on buses it does not follow that there will be fewer buses at all. The vast majority of buses clogging Princes Street are less than a quarter full. The fact is an increase in commuters will not mean more buses at all - the existing ones would just be fuller!

BoozyLynne
04-03-2008, 07:01 PM
Surely the way to go would have been a proper underground train service.
Im not talking about the crappy Glasgow style underground, but something more akin to the toronto subway. Its clean, bright and well maintained. It also doesnt put more vehicles on the roads. And with the right design it would cover most of the city. Certainly more than the proposed trams will.

An underground would be the best option, for sure. I would imagine the following are the main reasons for not doing it:

- Cost. Putting an underground transit system in place costs a LOT of money. A project of that magnitude would be whales compared to the tram's minnows.

- Edinburgh's size. Given that the City of Edinburgh itself isn't a comparitively huge city; it probably doesn't merit a mass-transit system, such as an underground, on it's own. If they were to put something like that in place it would have to go to such places as Penicuik, South Queensferry, Dalkeith, Danderhall, West & East Lothian etc...It would take absolutely years to do, although one could argue it could be combined with existing train lines to make it less expensive and less time-consuming.

- Edinburgh's Geology. I believe I read once upon a time that the bedrock below Edinburgh would be very difficult to drill through.


In short, I don't think they'll EVER give the green light for an underground subway system.

BoozyLynne
04-03-2008, 07:04 PM
total madness if you ask me :bitchy: a complete waste of money and a whole load of disruption being caused. the routes the trams are going to use are ones that buses run down every 5 minutes FFS so what is the point. how about people in the outskirts of edinburgh like muirhouse, oxgangs, sighthill who could actually benefit from some money being spent on extended bus routes or even some sort of train service im sure would be a lot more cost effective and benefiscial.

Hear hear!!

One of my main gripes about the trams is that they do absolutely NOTHING for people who live on the south side of the city.

Iain G
04-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Rail links would have less stops, cause much more congestions, and cost much much much more to have put inplace.

How the hell would rail links cause more congestion??? The suburban lines are still in place for a majority of Edinburgh, been shown it could be up and running for much less than the buses on rails that we are getting which is just adding to volumes of vehicles on the roads.

Trams will slow traffic down further, create bottlenecks everywhere they have to stop in the middle of roads, probably lead to more pedestrians getting injured as to having to cross busy roads, ruin the aesthetics of parts of the town as these electrical wires will be everywhere...

Cost is not the issue, the issue is improving transportation options for the people of Edinburgh and to get folks off the overcrowded key road routes. Trams will not do this, trains could if those idiots in parliament/city chamabers had actually sat down and thought this through instead of using the trams as a political football.

Zeberdee
04-03-2008, 09:12 PM
How the hell would rail links cause more congestion??? The suburban lines are still in place for a majority of Edinburgh, been shown it could be up and running for much less than the buses on rails that we are getting which is just adding to volumes of vehicles on the roads.

Trams will slow traffic down further, create bottlenecks everywhere they have to stop in the middle of roads, probably lead to more pedestrians getting injured as to having to cross busy roads, ruin the aesthetics of parts of the town as these electrical wires will be everywhere...

Cost is not the issue, the issue is improving transportation options for the people of Edinburgh and to get folks off the overcrowded key road routes. Trams will not do this, trains could if those idiots in parliament/city chamabers had actually sat down and thought this through instead of using the trams as a political football.

Sorry i meant during the laying of new tracks etc there would be more congestion. The trams will have far more stops n be more accessible for more people in my opionion. and only a couple pound a ticket!

As for your suggestion about suburban lines etc. A complete no go. The railway infrastructure simply costs too much to run and maintain. Edinburgh waverly is already creeking at the seems from the number of trains through it every day. Transport scotland have spent over 200 million on a new signalling system at the waverley which control from the borders to polmont on the glasgow line and up to cuper in fife. At least 4 workstations out of the 7 would have to be changed to accomodate new lines within edinburgh.

Its just never gonna happen.

Iain G
04-03-2008, 10:05 PM
Sorry i meant during the laying of new tracks etc there would be more congestion. The trams will have far more stops n be more accessible for more people in my opionion. and only a couple pound a ticket!

As for your suggestion about suburban lines etc. A complete no go. The railway infrastructure simply costs too much to run and maintain. Edinburgh waverly is already creeking at the seems from the number of trains through it every day. Transport scotland have spent over 200 million on a new signalling system at the waverley which control from the borders to polmont on the glasgow line and up to cuper in fife. At least 4 workstations out of the 7 would have to be changed to accomodate new lines within edinburgh.

Its just never gonna happen.

Still, IMHO, a much better and more valuable to Edinburgh, option than this Tram "line", its not even a network. Value for money, the trams are not IMHO, a new light suburban rail system would be a better option to service the people of Edinburgh.

They are playing at it with transport infrasturcture in Edinburgh, they have no real idea of what they are doing, its all piecemeal short termisim, Trams are a solution to what problem exactly, why do we so badly need them???

They will simply not step back, look at the big picture, and put a coherent and joined up plan in place for Edinburgh's transport network, it needs really big decisions and people to go out on a limb, trams are a fob, an easy tick in a box for our hopeless politicians, the big decision shold have been to look at futureproofing Edinburgh's transport infrastructure, but our leaders don't have the vision or the balls to do anything like that in case it upsets a few people and they lose votes...

Edinburgh will suffer as adding one tram line is not the solution to our transport needs as a city, especially when it isnt even goting to replace buses, if it was to replace LRT on this route then it would be worthwhile, its not though so its just going to add to vehicular traffic movements West/East across Edinburgh...waste of time and our money

Ed De Gramo
04-03-2008, 11:23 PM
Get the Tram lines to ******.....

The biggest waste of money since the Scottish Parliament :agree::agree:

Causing aggro on the buses and it's completly messing up the system :agree:

sg7nil
05-03-2008, 05:21 AM
Driving into work tonight at 18:30 and as I passed the Scottish Office building at Stenhouse (on way to Sighthill) I noticed that there were four number 22 buses nose to tail heading into town on the road! A glance to my right and I noticed that a bus had broken down on the bus route and three other buses had ran up behind it and were stuck.

Now I don't know how reliable the trams are supposed to be, but if one breaks down, there will be no option to simply re-route the ones behind it as there will only be one line in each direction.

Also, Princess Street is often closed for various functions throughout the year. Once again, buses can re-route but trams will be knacked.

When Romanes and Pattersons was on fire last year, they closed Princes St to all traffic, where would the trams have gone?

IMHO the best option (as suggested above) would be an underground system. A very limited amount of tunneling would be needed if it was done right, with radial overground lines feeding into it.

A former workmate was an ex-miner and he stated that the argument about Edinburghs bedrock being too hard to tunnel in is pure mince. In fact, hard rock is more self supporting and can therefore be done with a lot less tunnel lining and support than through softer materials.

Iain G
05-03-2008, 06:35 AM
Driving into work tonight at 18:30 and as I passed the Scottish Office building at Stenhouse (on way to Sighthill) I noticed that there were four number 22 buses nose to tail heading into town on the road! A glance to my right and I noticed that a bus had broken down on the bus route and three other buses had ran up behind it and were stuck.

Now I don't know how reliable the trams are supposed to be, but if one breaks down, there will be no option to simply re-route the ones behind it as there will only be one line in each direction.

Also, Princess Street is often closed for various functions throughout the year. Once again, buses can re-route but trams will be knacked.

When Romanes and Pattersons was on fire last year, they closed Princes St to all traffic, where would the trams have gone?

IMHO the best option (as suggested above) would be an underground system. A very limited amount of tunneling would be needed if it was done right, with radial overground lines feeding into it.

A former workmate was an ex-miner and he stated that the argument about Edinburghs bedrock being too hard to tunnel in is pure mince. In fact, hard rock is more self supporting and can therefore be done with a lot less tunnel lining and support than through softer materials.

Not sure about this bedrock issue, what I think is a major issue is the extent of basements and foundations of buildings, especially historic ones, around the city centre, and the effect of tunnelling and underground vibrations may have on them :agree:

bernz
05-03-2008, 10:01 AM
Who is actually going to be running the trams?

I may be wrong but out at the Gogar round about there is a big sign about the trams with an LRT emblem on the sign. Does this not mean that LRT will be running the trams?

If this is the case then the argument about LRT not giving up on its buses due to losing business to the trams would be redundant. It would also mean that during events like new year where princes street is closed, they would be able to put buses on instead for the short term.

davym7062
05-03-2008, 11:45 AM
The issue here is not the trams themselves, I think they will be fairly well used by folks, its that they are not replacing the buses, LRT won't roll over and give up all the cash they make servicing the same route as the tramlines, so instead of removing congestion we are adding another layer and mode of transport to an already over subscribed route in and out of town.

Its small time thinking that has got us the trams, typical of Scotland really, no big picture! We shold be getting people back off the road network by looking at proper local rail links, trying to shoehorn another mode of transport onto the streets of Edinburgh is just folly IMHO. I like the trams I have used in other cities, but this scheme for Edinburgh does nothing to alleviate the issues of congestion and busy roads unless you get rid of the buses on these routes, which won't happen...


the trams and lothian buses will be part of the same company, if you look at the pictures of the tram u'll see it's in lothian colours. not maroon :wink:

the bus service that goes through the tram route will be scaled down

Phil D. Rolls
05-03-2008, 03:23 PM
pretty much agree with everything said above. i do not see the benefits at all.

Lothian buses won best bus service in the UK last year so there is clearly no need to make drastic changes to our transport system :brickwall

On the face of it - no. However, we have to plan for a time when oil is scarcer. Regardless of your views on global warming, we just can't sustain the internal combustion engine forever. Trams run on electricity.

BoozyLynne
05-03-2008, 05:48 PM
On the face of it - no. However, we have to plan for a time when oil is scarcer. Regardless of your views on global warming, we just can't sustain the internal combustion engine forever. Trams run on electricity.

Can't trains run on electricity as well, though?

PiemanP
05-03-2008, 06:53 PM
On the face of it - no. However, we have to plan for a time when oil is scarcer. Regardless of your views on global warming, we just can't sustain the internal combustion engine forever. Trams run on electricity.


with the way technology is developing as the previous poster said both trains and buses can be run on electricity and other renewably sources, give it a good few years and the majority of cars wont be petrol run.

Chez
05-03-2008, 06:59 PM
with the way technology is developing as the previous poster said both trains and buses can be run on electricity and other renewably sources, give it a good few years and the majority of cars wont be petrol run.


:agree: That is the plan anyway - on Panorama a few months ago they were talking about using rapeseed oil for car engines instead of petrol. Tests have been carried out and rapeseed oil is a good equivalent for petrol and more eco-friendly for the car and clean air.

Bishop Hibee
05-03-2008, 07:28 PM
If anyone has looked at the plans for the tramline you would see who has pushed for it. Big business. There is a stop at Ocean Terminal, one outside the casino at the bottom of Constitution Street, a stop at The Gyle, one at Gogarburn and at the Airport. By contrast there is 1 stop for the whole of Leith Walk (at Balfour Street) and 1 for the whole of Princes Street!

Lots of people, especially those working at The Gyle or RBS, will love them when we have them but are not worth the initial outlay IMHO.

Arch Stanton
05-03-2008, 08:36 PM
the trams and lothian buses will be part of the same company, if you look at the pictures of the tram u'll see it's in lothian colours. not maroon :wink:

the bus service that goes through the tram route will be scaled down

While there MAY be fewer LRT buses on the 22 route (and I doubt it) there certainly won't be fewer First buses on that route.

Overall there won't be any additional buses sitting in garages as LRT and First will still be competing for market share in Edinburgh (bus deregulation being another hideous legacy from Thatcher - courtesy of another thread) and buses running empty are part and parcel of that.

Dashing Bob S
05-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Trams are both a fantastic idea and absolutely essential. Our cities are medieval in design and not built for motorised transport, which is destroying the environment and has had its day, particularly in the cities. In the long run, moving to eco-friendly rapid transit is the way to go.

Of course there will be cost, hassle and inconvenience. So what? Deal with and stop moaning in the selfish, knee-jerk backwoodsman manner about every beneficial change just because it might cause you a bit of short-term hassle.

My biggest bugbear about the trams is that system should have been up and running at least a decade ago. That god they are actually getting their fingers out and doing it.

The Dublin trams are fantastic, and like good eye laser surgery, people wonder how they ever got by without it. They moaned in Athens about the underground, yes, they had eight years of hassle, but car volumes were growing exponentially so they would have had this bother anyway. Now those of us who don't fancy the sheer, abject nightmare of driving in that city have a decent alternative.

A comprehensive rapid transit system is a process of long-term development. Dublin's will continue to improve as more lines open and link up. Manchester and Croydon wouldn't go back to buses for love nor money either. It'll be a long slog but when it is running, other cities like Glasgow will look enviously at us and want one too. Let's be a wee bit less mean-spirited and leave something decent for our kids and subsequent generations. We've taken and are taking loads and loads, so why not just shut up and put up with the hassle for the sake of progress?

Iain G
05-03-2008, 09:53 PM
Trams are both a fantastic idea and absolutely essential. Our cities are medieval in design and not built for motorised transport, which is destroying the environment and has had its day, particularly in the cities. In the long run, moving to eco-friendly rapid transit is the way to go.

Of course there will be cost, hassle and inconvenience. So what? Deal with and stop moaning in the selfish, knee-jerk backwoodsman manner about every beneficial change just because it might cause you a bit of short-term hassle.

My biggest bugbear about the trams is that system should have been up and running at least a decade ago. That god they are actually getting their fingers out and doing it.

The Dublin trams are fantastic, and like good eye laser surgery, people wonder how they ever got by without it. They moaned in Athens about the underground, yes, they had eight years of hassle, but car volumes were growing exponentially so they would have had this bother anyway. Now those of us who don't fancy the sheer, abject nightmare of driving in that city have a decent alternative.

A comprehensive rapid transit system is a process of long-term development. Dublin's will continue to improve as more lines open and link up. Manchester and Croydon wouldn't go back to buses for love nor money either. It'll be a long slog but when it is running, other cities like Glasgow will look enviously at us and want one too. Let's be a wee bit less mean-spirited and leave something decent for our kids and subsequent generations. We've taken and are taking loads and loads, so why not just shut up and put up with the hassle for the sake of progress?

Bob, I do like Trams, especially when compared to riding on double decker buses, again I'll push Melbourne as a city that has got its public transport infrastructure right, its all joined up in its thinking and everything connects and seems to work.

Edinburgh is a different ballgame as we are not a new sprawling city, we are an old place with weird windy routes and hills, so that kind of Melbourne system wont really work.

I just think they are attacking it the wrong way in Edinburgh, trams eventually to replace buses on main routes across the city will be fantastic, but I think they should have started with getting folks off the roads, not just moving them from one vehicle to another, the regular airport rail link, with a stop at Edinburgh Park, IMHO would have alieviated the pressure on the East/West road corridor, as well as linking central Edinburgh with the airport in about 10 mins instead of mucking around with airport buses. You could also aleviate pressure on the forth road bridge with a frequent shuttle rail connection from Fife straight to airport/Edinburgh park.

When they have reduced the levels of commuters then slowly phase the trams in to REPLACE the buses, not run with them still.

And I still think a big chance to make Haymarket a transport interchange hub has been lost with this chasing the quick buck of new hotels, leisure etc etc

I actually don't think CEC/Parliaments/Exec have been bold enough with their transport vision for Edinburgh :agree:

Dashing Bob S
05-03-2008, 10:04 PM
Bob, I do like Trams, especially when compared to riding on double decker buses, again I'll push Melbourne as a city that has got its public transport infrastructure right, its all joined up in its thinking and everything connects and seems to work.

Edinburgh is a different ballgame as we are not a new sprawling city, we are an old place with weird windy routes and hills, so that kind of Melbourne system wont really work.

I just think they are attacking it the wrong way in Edinburgh, trams eventually to replace buses on main routes across the city will be fantastic, but I think they should have started with getting folks off the roads, not just moving them from one vehicle to another, the regular airport rail link, with a stop at Edinburgh Park, IMHO would have alieviated the pressure on the East/West road corridor, as well as linking central Edinburgh with the airport in about 10 mins instead of mucking around with airport buses. You could also aleviate pressure on the forth road bridge with a frequent shuttle rail connection from Fife straight to airport/Edinburgh park.

When they have reduced the levels of commuters then slowly phase the trams in to REPLACE the buses, not run with them still.

And I still think a big chance to make Haymarket a transport interchange hub has been lost with this chasing the quick buck of new hotels, leisure etc etc

I actually don't think CEC/Parliaments/Exec have been bold enough with their transport vision for Edinburgh :agree:

Oh, I'm sure it is a shabby, half-baked system full of fudges and compromises, but after twenty years of hot air its great to see them actually digging. I'm working from the premise that once its started it can be made better. I think Edinburgh had got itself into a terrible mess where they were never going to let go of the idea, but nobody had the bottle to start the ball rolling.

Thank god that impasse is behind us.

Arch Stanton
05-03-2008, 10:18 PM
Let's be a wee bit less mean-spirited and leave something decent for our kids and subsequent generations. We've taken and are taking loads and loads, so why not just shut up and put up with the hassle for the sake of progress?

If opposing complete wastes of money is mean spirited then I'm just going to have to be so. And until someone can explain to me exactly what trams can do that buses can't I will continue to be so.

Why exactly is building inflexibility into our transport infrastructure worth spending so much money?

Why are you seriously envisaging a complete tram network when the financing still isn't completely in place for this first (last?) line?

I would fully support any work done to ensure a better transport system for the future but that will never happen until someone sits down and assesses our current problems and starts to work out a proper solution to them.

As far as RTS is concerned the most envied cities by a long way are those with underground trains. Some other cities have nevertheless managed to use trams effectively where they have been able to subdivide thoroughfares to bring in fast links between areas of population and places of business (does this really sound like the TIE solution to you?).

It seems to me that Edinburgh is getting trams for the simple reason that there are people in Dublin and some other places who like theirs - that just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

Dashing Bob S
05-03-2008, 10:35 PM
If opposing complete wastes of money is mean spirited then I'm just going to have to be so. And until someone can explain to me exactly what trams can do that buses can't I will continue to be so.

Why exactly is building inflexibility into our transport infrastructure worth spending so much money?

Why are you seriously envisaging a complete tram network when the financing still isn't completely in place for this first (last?) line?

I would fully support any work done to ensure a better transport system for the future but that will never happen until someone sits down and assesses our current problems and starts to work out a proper solution to them.

As far as RTS is concerned the most envied cities by a long way are those with underground trains. Some other cities have nevertheless managed to use trams effectively where they have been able to subdivide thoroughfares to bring in fast links between areas of population and places of business (does this really sound like the TIE solution to you?).

It seems to me that Edinburgh is getting trams for the simple reason that there are people in Dublin and some other places who like theirs - that just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

If opposing complete wastes of money is mean spirited then I'm just going to have to be so. And until someone can explain to me exactly what trams can do that buses can't I will continue to be so.

1) Faster. Connolly Station in Dublin to Tallaght took 45 mins by bus, it takes 23 by tram. 2) Cleaner - they are better for the environment.

Why exactly is building inflexibility into our transport infrastructure worth spending so much money?

2) By continuing to let an increasing volume of cars into our city we are already building inflexibility into our teansport infrastructure.

Why are you seriously envisaging a complete tram network when the financing still isn't completely in place for this first (last?) line?

3) Because you have to. Self-contained lines bring solid, but marginal improvements. You have to work to the goal of a comprehensive, integrated transit system.

I would fully support any work done to ensure a better transport system for the future but that will never happen until someone sits down and assesses our current problems and starts to work out a proper solution to them.

4) That's the last thing we need - they've been sitting down doing that for twenty years. At last some action - and not before time.

As far as RTS is concerned the most envied cities by a long way are those with underground trains. Some other cities have nevertheless managed to use trams effectively where they have been able to subdivide thoroughfares to bring in fast links between areas of population and places of business (does this really sound like the TIE solution to you?).

5) I agree that underground trains are much better. It's been said that Edinburgh is geological unsuitable for this due to the hills - whether its true, I can't say. Agree that most tram projects introdcued in cities have been succesful. Its hard to think of one that hasn't. I agree the TIE solution isn't the optimum, but its better than nothing.

It seems to me that Edinburgh is getting trams for the simple reason that there are people in Dublin and some other places who like theirs - that just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

6) It seems sensible practice to replicate successful schemes adopted in other cities. Why not?

Sergio sledge
05-03-2008, 10:51 PM
I just think they are attacking it the wrong way in Edinburgh, trams eventually to replace buses on main routes across the city will be fantastic, but I think they should have started with getting folks off the roads, not just moving them from one vehicle to another, the regular airport rail link, with a stop at Edinburgh Park, IMHO would have alieviated the pressure on the East/West road corridor, as well as linking central Edinburgh with the airport in about 10 mins instead of mucking around with airport buses. You could also aleviate pressure on the forth road bridge with a frequent shuttle rail connection from Fife straight to airport/Edinburgh park.

Which is exactly what the tram is going to do as far as I'm aware. there is a regular link to the airport, with stops at Ingleston Park and Ride, the gyle, Edinburgh park, along the railway line to Haymarket, then onto Princes Street.


When they have reduced the levels of commuters then slowly phase the trams in to REPLACE the buses, not run with them still.

The level of commuters will never reduce unless the work is moved out of the city centre. The trams, will alleviate pressure on the roads, by allowing people to park out near the airport and get into the centre of the city in minutes. The fact that the trams will have priority over cars and buses on the road will also help encourage people to use them.

It has been said before, but Nottingham is a very similar city to Edinburgh, and the trams have worked extremely well here, so much so that they are in consultation over another two tram routes, linking the suburbs to the centre of town. This is the way Edinburgh will eventually go.

Arch Stanton
05-03-2008, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE=Dashing Bob S;1530255]
1) Faster. Connolly Station in Dublin to Tallaght took 45 mins by bus, it takes 23 by tram.
Trams will certainly go faster because there are so few stops - just taking the Express Bus philosophy to extremes and I don't see that as being particularly clever. Other than that I would wonder just where in Edinburgh trams will be picking up a head of speed - just to warn pedestrians not to go there I mean.
2) Cleaner - they are better for the environment.
I completely agree that we need a cleaner environment. I totally disagree that we need trams to achieve that.
2) By continuing to let an increasing volume of cars into our city we are already building inflexibility into our teansport infrastructure.
I don't follow that. As far as I am concerned the best way to get people out of cars is to give them a decent public transport alternative (all the people I mean not just the ones living on Leith Walk who want to go to the Gyle).
3) Because you have to. Self-contained lines bring solid, but marginal improvements. You have to work to the goal of a comprehensive, integrated transit system.
Like I said before I agree with the comprehensive and integrated - I just don't agree with trams.
4) That's the last thing we need - they've been sitting down doing that for twenty years. At last some action - and not before time.
There may be some instances where 'any' decision is better than 'no' decision but this isn't one - joined-up thinking and a proper plan are important.
5) I agree that underground trains are much better. It's been said that Edinburgh is geological unsuitable for this due to the hills - whether its true, I can't say. Agree that most tram projects introdcued in cities have been succesful. Its hard to think of one that hasn't. I agree the TIE solution isn't the optimum, but its better than nothing.
I don't go along with 'better than nothing' - in fact I think it will in the end prevent a good solution being achieved. LRT recently announed a scheme where you could phone up and find out when your next bus was going to arrive - I can see lots of scope along those lines for making buses more attractive and hopefully more flexible (and get rid of de-regulation while we're at it!).
6) It seems sensible practice to replicate successful schemes adopted in other cities. Why not?
If all cities were exactly the same then that might make some sense. However, I would query what your definition of successful was. I guess you could consider it a big success if you get half the people off the 22 bus and onto trams - given that the bus probably has 3 times as many stops I mean, anything over a third could be considered pretty good.

Iain G
05-03-2008, 11:54 PM
Which is exactly what the tram is going to do as far as I'm aware. there is a regular link to the airport, with stops at Ingleston Park and Ride, the gyle, Edinburgh park, along the railway line to Haymarket, then onto Princes Street.



The level of commuters will never reduce unless the work is moved out of the city centre. The trams, will alleviate pressure on the roads, by allowing people to park out near the airport and get into the centre of the city in minutes. The fact that the trams will have priority over cars and buses on the road will also help encourage people to use them.

It has been said before, but Nottingham is a very similar city to Edinburgh, and the trams have worked extremely well here, so much so that they are in consultation over another two tram routes, linking the suburbs to the centre of town. This is the way Edinburgh will eventually go.

If the correct integrated rail link is put in place then it will alleviate congestion on roads and in the city centre, if folks in Fife, or Stirling, or wherever, who fly in and out of Edinburgh airport, can get back to their par of Scotland by rail from the airport without having to stop/change at Haymarket/Waverley/Bus Station etc then it reduces needless pedestrian/vehicular traffic in and out of Edinburgh.

Trams INSTEAD of buses is whats needed on these key routes, not trams & buses. Losing buses has got to be better on an environmental level :agree:

sg7nil
06-03-2008, 04:13 AM
If anyone has looked at the plans for the tramline you would see who has pushed for it. Big business. There is a stop at Ocean Terminal, one outside the casino at the bottom of Constitution Street, a stop at The Gyle, one at Gogarburn and at the Airport. By contrast there is 1 stop for the whole of Leith Walk (at Balfour Street) and 1 for the whole of Princes Street!

Lots of people, especially those working at The Gyle or RBS, will love them when we have them but are not worth the initial outlay IMHO.

The Balfour St stop will be handy for me (and for punters getting to ER and Jaynes Bar) however are you seriously suggesting that theres only 1 stop on the whole length of Princes St??? I assume it's scheduled to be near the middle ? Near the Mound? Can you imagine the queues to get on or off there during busy periods? Surely there should be a stop to service Waverly Station (at Waverly Bridge perhaps?)

Lucius Apuleius
06-03-2008, 06:40 AM
Why not a monorail above street level?

Iain G
06-03-2008, 07:31 AM
Why not a monorail above street level?

Hmmm, looking forward to Lyle Lanley working for TIE if thats the case :thumbsup:

"Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!"

:thumbsup:

Zeberdee
06-03-2008, 07:37 AM
If the correct integrated rail link is put in place then it will alleviate congestion on roads and in the city centre, if folks in Fife, or Stirling, or wherever, who fly in and out of Edinburgh airport, can get back to their par of Scotland by rail from the airport without having to stop/change at Haymarket/Waverley/Bus Station etc then it reduces needless pedestrian/vehicular traffic in and out of Edinburgh.

Trams INSTEAD of buses is whats needed on these key routes, not trams & buses. Losing buses has got to be better on an environmental level :agree:

Thanks to the SNP for cancelling this. Especially after millions already having been spent by network rail to install a signalling system to accomodate this.

The SNP in reality, have spent the money elsewhere, on their short term policies in order to wow voters and ensure they get in another term and push through independence. By that time we wont be able to afford a proper rail link.

Peevemor
06-03-2008, 08:11 AM
with the way technology is developing as the previous poster said both trains and buses can be run on electricity and other renewably sources, give it a good few years and the majority of cars wont be petrol run.


:agree: That is the plan anyway - on Panorama a few months ago they were talking about using rapeseed oil for car engines instead of petrol. Tests have been carried out and rapeseed oil is a good equivalent for petrol and more eco-friendly for the car and clean air.

The only problem with rapeseed oil is that we will never be able to grow enough of it. Independant studies have been carried out here in France and they have discovered that if they planted the entire country with the stuff, they still wouldn't be able to fuel the number of cars that exist today.

TheEastTerrace
06-03-2008, 11:22 AM
I'm impartial to the trams being built but one thing I would say is that they've totally neglected the south side. Surely there would be demand for them there too?:dunno:

Bad Martini
06-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Trams are both a fantastic idea and absolutely essential. Our cities are medieval in design and not built for motorised transport, which is destroying the environment and has had its day, particularly in the cities. In the long run, moving to eco-friendly rapid transit is the way to go.

Of course there will be cost, hassle and inconvenience. So what? Deal with and stop moaning in the selfish, knee-jerk backwoodsman manner about every beneficial change just because it might cause you a bit of short-term hassle.

My biggest bugbear about the trams is that system should have been up and running at least a decade ago. That god they are actually getting their fingers out and doing it.

The Dublin trams are fantastic, and like good eye laser surgery, people wonder how they ever got by without it. They moaned in Athens about the underground, yes, they had eight years of hassle, but car volumes were growing exponentially so they would have had this bother anyway. Now those of us who don't fancy the sheer, abject nightmare of driving in that city have a decent alternative.

A comprehensive rapid transit system is a process of long-term development. Dublin's will continue to improve as more lines open and link up. Manchester and Croydon wouldn't go back to buses for love nor money either. It'll be a long slog but when it is running, other cities like Glasgow will look enviously at us and want one too. Let's be a wee bit less mean-spirited and leave something decent for our kids and subsequent generations. We've taken and are taking loads and loads, so why not just shut up and put up with the hassle for the sake of progress?

The short term "hassle" as you put it Boab, is only a small part of it.

The long term WASTE of cash, against the wishes of so many, sticks in my throat.

Who says its progress? If it were such a brilliant idea, every major capital city on planet earth would be moving to trams and sharpish.....funnily enough, I dont see this happening.

An underground solution (if architectually and structurally possible) MIGHT be an idea but only if it improves what we have, is COST effective and doesnt replace the most frequent ***** route we have with an expensive tram that will be ****ed if Princess Street is shut, as mentioned above (Unless of course, one can re-route the tram in a "go go gadget copter" style).

Waste of the tax payers money. ENDOF

Bad Martini
06-03-2008, 12:22 PM
Thanks to the SNP for cancelling this. Especially after millions already having been spent by network rail to install a signalling system to accomodate this.

The SNP in reality, have spent the money elsewhere, on their short term policies in order to wow voters and ensure they get in another term and push through independence. By that time we wont be able to afford a proper rail link.


What is your economic argument against independence? I am genuinely interested to here what you believe to be this strong case against running our own country, using our own resources, for our own good?

In all seriousness, I'm interested ..... :agree:

I would guess it may very well be based on the spin and conjecture the unionist parties would have everyone believe.

It goes back to who you believe and the fundamental principle most humans believe to be true namely, most people/animals/whatever do something for a reason....its those reasons that define who you believe.

I have yet to find the good Samaritan that the UK Government apparently are, giving Scotland this massive subsidy when large portions of Scotland are in favour of independence.....alas, if I were the UK Government, I would surely cut all ties with the pesky leach that is Scotland, IF it were this leacherous state we are all led to believe we are....

Lucius Apuleius
06-03-2008, 12:23 PM
Hmmm, looking forward to Lyle Lanley working for TIE if thats the case :thumbsup:

"Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!"

:thumbsup:

:greengrin

Works in Sydney though, even though it is just a small one there. I quite liked it. Plus it allowed the normal traffic to flow normally.

derekHFC
06-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Why not a monorail above street level?


Hmmm, looking forward to Lyle Lanley working for TIE if thats the case :thumbsup:

"Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!"

:thumbsup:

As long as Homer Simpson is driving it, you get my vote :wink:

Simpson eh............... :greengrin

Bishop Hibee
06-03-2008, 07:03 PM
The Balfour St stop will be handy for me (and for punters getting to ER and Jaynes Bar) however are you seriously suggesting that theres only 1 stop on the whole length of Princes St??? I assume it's scheduled to be near the middle ? Near the Mound? Can you imagine the queues to get on or off there during busy periods? Surely there should be a stop to service Waverly Station (at Waverly Bridge perhaps?)

Apologies, there will also be a stop at McDonald Road (not present in the original plan I saw). There will, however, only be one stop in Princes Street. The nearest other stops are St Andrew Square and Shandwick Place.

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

Iain G
06-03-2008, 07:27 PM
:greengrin

Works in Sydney though, even though it is just a small one there. I quite liked it. Plus it allowed the normal traffic to flow normally.

I know, I've been on it, was there last year and did the whole loop back to where we started, singing the Monorail song as we went :thumbsup:

Mono.....d'oh!

Genuienly think this is how we came to have a tram system, some sheister(sp?) watch this episode of the Simpsons and wondered which most gullable of city cooncils he could sell the idea to...

BoozyLynne
06-03-2008, 07:59 PM
I know, I've been on it, was there last year and did the whole loop back to where we started, singing the Monorail song as we went :thumbsup:

Mono.....d'oh!

Genuienly think this is how we came to have a tram system, some sheister(sp?) watch this episode of the Simpsons and wondered which most gullable of city cooncils he could sell the idea to...




Some clown called "Lyall Lanley" turned up at the city chambers, made a quip about how trams were more of a "Glasgow idea", explained how trams put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map (by gum!), sung a mad song and that was it. Boom! We have trams.

I call the big one 'Bitey'...

Iain G
06-03-2008, 09:45 PM
Some clown called "Lyall Lanley" turned up at the city chambers, made a quip about how trams were more of a "Glasgow idea", explained how trams put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map (by gum!), sung a mad song and that was it. Boom! We have trams.

I call the big one 'Bitey'...

Donuts, is there anything they can't do??

This is all that's left of one of the crappiest trains ever built.
Mr Kobb, what can we do?
You just better have a damn good conductor.

Marge: Well, I think we should spend the money on something the whole town can be proud of.
Homer: Like a giant billboard that says "No fat chicks"?

Marge: Homer, there's a man here who thinks he can help you.
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's NOT Batman.

Possibly the bestest episode ever!! (sorry, lil off topic again!) :greengrin

BoozyLynne
06-03-2008, 10:28 PM
Donuts, is there anything they can't do??

This is all that's left of one of the crappiest trains ever built.
Mr Kobb, what can we do?
You just better have a damn good conductor.

Marge: Well, I think we should spend the money on something the whole town can be proud of.
Homer: Like a giant billboard that says "No fat chicks"?

Marge: Homer, there's a man here who thinks he can help you.
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's NOT Batman.

Possibly the bestest episode ever!! (sorry, lil off topic again!) :greengrin



Nice steal from IMDB on that last one :greengrin:wink:

Iain G
07-03-2008, 12:56 AM
Nice steal from IMDB on that last one :greengrin:wink:

I know...did you check yours there too?? :wink:

Am looking forward to Edinburgh building the Popsicle Stick Skyscraper, the 50foot magnifying glass, and the escalator to nowhere....

Al_Bundy
07-03-2008, 02:06 AM
The trams will be run by a french company that is working with Lothian Buses. IIRC there will be about 20 less Lothian Buses on the road and by the time the trams are up and running most of the bus routes will have changed as the buses will actually feed the trams. I know for sure that no buses will run on leith walk and i am led to believe that none will run on the same route as the tram. The tram route will not run directly into the airport it will stop at Gogarburn and once again i am led to believe a shuttle bus will go back and forth between the tram line and the airport.

*The bit in Italic/underlined i am a little confused about as i know Lothian Buses are keeping their airport service but i thought this was the same route as the tram.

Iain G
07-03-2008, 02:22 AM
The trams will be run by a french company that is working with Lothian Buses. IIRC there will be about 20 less Lothian Buses on the road and by the time the trams are up and running most of the bus routes will have changed as the buses will actually feed the trams. I know for sure that no buses will run on leith walk and i am led to believe that none will run on the same route as the tram. The tram route will not run directly into the airport it will stop at Gogarburn and once again i am led to believe a shuttle bus will go back and forth between the tram line and the airport.

*The bit in Italic/underlined i am a little confused about as i know Lothian Buses are keeping their airport service but i thought this was the same route as the tram.

20 less buses, well that will help with congestion no end, what happens if we put in a 2nd tram line, there will be 40 less buses, well worth the 500 million, and rising... :wink:

I do not belive that no buses will run on Leith Walk, simple as that, and the same for the rest of the tram route. If LRT or TIE are saying different I expect that to be a lot of old bollox :agree:

And the not connecting to the airport is an absolute joke and scandal, but we shouldn't expect anything less than an almighty cock up from Tie and our useless representitives on this Council who simply have no bloody clue or idea on how to do the best for Edinburgh. Integrated transport planning my arse, bunch of idiots the lot of them...:brickwall:brickwall

Al_Bundy
07-03-2008, 02:53 AM
20 less buses, well that will help with congestion no end, what happens if we put in a 2nd tram line, there will be 40 less buses, well worth the 500 million, and rising... :wink:

I do not belive that no buses will run on Leith Walk, simple as that, and the same for the rest of the tram route. If LRT or TIE are saying different I expect that to be a lot of old bollox :agree:

And the not connecting to the airport is an absolute joke and scandal, but we shouldn't expect anything less than an almighty cock up from Tie and our useless representitives on this Council who simply have no bloody clue or idea on how to do the best for Edinburgh. Integrated transport planning my arse, bunch of idiots the lot of them...:brickwall:brickwall


There was a reason as to why it was not getting extended to the airport but for the life of me i cant remember.

I have no clue how well this system will work and i dont even agree with it happening in edinburgh but you cant fail to notice how well it does work in other cities(as stated by other posters and yourself). For the amount of funding it is getting i honestly can not see how it could fail. Time will tell i suppose.

P.S in my first post i was just passing on what i had been told through my work, was not saying i agree with what the clowncil is doing.

Iain G
07-03-2008, 03:01 AM
There was a reason as to why it was not getting extended to the airport but for the life of me i cant remember.

I have no clue how well this system will work and i dont even agree with it happening in edinburgh but you cant fail to notice how well it does work in other cities(as stated by other posters and yourself). For the amount of funding it is getting i honestly can not see how it could fail. Time will tell i suppose.

P.S in my first post i was just passing on what i had been told through my work, was not saying i agree with what the clowncil is doing.

Its cool, I just don't believe that no buses will share the routes as the trams, Edinburgh isn't big enough to do this and LRT will still wanting to be making cash from buses on these still busy routes :agree:

It could fail because its a half arsed scheme that has been cut down from the original scale due to lack of money and inflation! Its one piece in a jigsaw where the cooncil can't even find the box, never mind half the pieces or the picture of what it should eventually look like... :wink:

TheBall'sRound
07-03-2008, 06:20 AM
Just a note whilst staying firmly on the fence...

I worked in Manchester for a while and used the tram from Stretford to the city centre every morning and absolutely loved it to bits in comparison to moving around Edinburgh (except from some scally smashing my car window one morning!)

Manchester is a bit more spread out and has more obvious population hot spots in the suburbs but the convenience of a regular tram service to (just about) wherever you need to go was a breath of fresh air to someone used to Edinburgh buses and scotrail commuter trains.

Whether I'll revise this point of view the next time I'm going through Shandwick Place is another matter entirely. :greengrin

BoozyLynne
07-03-2008, 09:06 AM
I know...did you check yours there too?? :wink:

Am looking forward to Edinburgh building the Popsicle Stick Skyscraper, the 50foot magnifying glass, and the escalator to nowhere....

I just put "Simpsons quotes monorai" into Google after you posted it and that's what came up :wink:

"Now just a minute. We're twice as smart as the people of Shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and we'll vote for it"

So as not to turn this thread into Cheeseboard material (:devil:), will the trams run on the greenways or will they run on the lane where cars are allowed to go?

Another thing, which is slightly related, is why don't the council allow people who car-pool to use the Greenways? You see plenty single occupant cars in the mornings during rush hour, so why not encourage people to car-pool? It works in the states where they have car-pool lanes on motorways, so I don't see why it couldn't work in Edinburgh. I guess the only thing is it may be tough to police. Arguably, it wouldn't be any tougher to police than cars going on Greenways though.

Iain G
07-03-2008, 02:59 PM
I just put "Simpsons quotes monorai" into Google after you posted it and that's what came up :wink:

"Now just a minute. We're twice as smart as the people of Shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and we'll vote for it"

So as not to turn this thread into Cheeseboard material (:devil:), will the trams run on the greenways or will they run on the lane where cars are allowed to go?

Another thing, which is slightly related, is why don't the council allow people who car-pool to use the Greenways? You see plenty single occupant cars in the mornings during rush hour, so why not encourage people to car-pool? It works in the states where they have car-pool lanes on motorways, so I don't see why it couldn't work in Edinburgh. I guess the only thing is it may be tough to police. Arguably, it wouldn't be any tougher to police than cars going on Greenways though.

Like they will down Princes St (see marketing pics) I expect trams will run down the middle of the roads, thus on normal traffic lanes, and not greenways, so normal commuters will be held up, not the LRT buses WHICH WILL STILL BE RUNNING ON THE TRAM ROUTES :agree:

Mikey_1875
07-03-2008, 07:20 PM
Just a note whilst staying firmly on the fence...

I worked in Manchester for a while and used the tram from Stretford to the city centre every morning and absolutely loved it to bits in comparison to moving around Edinburgh (except from some scally smashing my car window one morning!)

Manchester is a bit more spread out and has more obvious population hot spots in the suburbs but the convenience of a regular tram service to (just about) wherever you need to go was a breath of fresh air to someone used to Edinburgh buses and scotrail commuter trains.

Whether I'll revise this point of view the next time I'm going through Shandwick Place is another matter entirely. :greengrin

I know your sitting on the fence so this is not a direct reply to you, but if this is this is the main adavantage of trams in Manchester then it makes this TIE system even more pointless as

1. The trams aren't going anywhere that a 22 bus can't take you. What if I wanted to go too anywhere in the south side of the city, it'd be by bus.

2. Sure they might be a breath of fresh air but it isn't that much quicker or convenient than a 22, the 22 bus gets to leith from the gyle in 25 minutes and apart from Western approach is always in a bus lane, so the trasm may only be 2 or 3 minutes quicker :confused:

The only way that trams will be effective is if they go throught the whole city and the outskirts, if it only gos to selected parts it seems a waste imo. I quite like the idea of a monorail too they look quite smart in japan etc.

alex plode
07-03-2008, 07:51 PM
As an aside.
Isn't there anyone even slightly concerned with the imminent overhead cable installation along the length of Princes St. & Leith Walk ?

In light of current planning bureaucracy (where you need permission to erect a tree house in your own back garden) did anyone ask if it would be ok to install pylons and cables throughout the heart of a world heritage centre ? :cool2:

Edinburghlass
08-03-2008, 08:09 AM
And that's one of my biggest gripes about the trams - would any other organisation have been given the go-ahead for overhead cables running through the middle of a WHO and ruining the views of the Castle (which is Edinburgh's single biggest selling point)?

Leith Walk must be one of the best served routes in Edinburgh for buses going up to Princes Street. Won't the trams just remove or impinge upon their use of the road space? Will cars not just divert through the Hillside, Broughton, Pilrig, etc?

And yet many suburban rail lines still exist. The infrastructure is there, yet when I discussed this with Network Rail and Transport Scotland, they couldn't even tell me if any feasabilities had been done into it. Yes, Edinburgh in rail terms has substantial pressures on it, but ther eis no solution that can't be solved. Some bloody planner somewhere just wants to force trams upon a city that does not want it.

As for m? I can't foresee a time I'll need to use a tram. It's a rigid route, inflexible and the developers at the Waterfront must have been rubbing their hands given that the trams seem to serve that development while neglecting the existing population of the City.

I have seen nothing so far to entice me to use a tram, and certainly nothing that has been happening over the past few months in Edinburgh has endeared any part of the project to me. Can't help but think that a better use of the funding would have been to fix holes in school roofs and give the younger generations in Edinburgh a chance to be educated in a non-dilapidated ruin of a school.

Besides, when I was on a tram in Manchester, I was overtaken by pedestrians! :agree:

hibsdaft
08-03-2008, 06:47 PM
i was amazed about them shutting down shandwick place for so long, and i have to go through there twice a day but i have been getting home 10 minutes earlier this week to my surprise.

don't know if it will all be worth the 's and stress, but i do think that a lot of people who've been slating the project for years will be enjoying the trams when they arrive. having been on them in sheffield, its a much more comfortable way of travelling than the bus and they will avoid some really bad traffic in gorgie etc saving a lot of time for folk heading into the city centre from the west.

Arch Stanton
08-03-2008, 07:02 PM
i was amazed about them shutting down shandwick place for so long, and i have to go through there twice a day but i have been getting home 10 minutes earlier this week to my surprise.

don't know if it will all be worth the 's and stress, but i do think that a lot of people who've been slating the project for years will be enjoying the trams when they arrive. having been on them in sheffield, its a much more comfortable way of travelling than the bus and they will avoid some really bad traffic in gorgie etc saving a lot of time for folk heading into the city centre from the west.

I actually quite enjoy buses when they arrive - the biggest bugbear I have with them isn't the journey times but the waiting at bus stops.

Ryan91
12-03-2008, 01:51 PM
Waste of Money, could be spent on improving the bus services, if the scottish parliament is anything to go by, then these will be way over budget, and within the first few months they'll have broken down countless numbers of times, and no-one will have used them. In short they are a bad idea, it might work in a city like Dublin where the population is almost (if not greater than) 1 million, but not in Edinburgh.

Onceinawhile
12-03-2008, 03:25 PM
trams are excellent as long as there are enough lines and they are fare controlled.(Iv paid for the tram something like 3 times since september over here).

will edinburgh meet these criteria? probably not. they should look at copying madrid or amsterdam